Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

[humantorch101]

Right well I go all the way back to champions 2nd edition and I know this has always been the case, but why when in 5th we have a defined set of characteristic standards are DEX scores so damned high across the board.

 

We always seem to be in the legendary catergory with a few unlucky bricks falling into the competent range.

 

Again why? why are the most clumsy slow looking bricks still considered olympic class athletes dexterity wise?

 

I think this stems from the history of the game where certain sorts of averages and standards came into general use of Bricks being dex 18 energy projectors 23 martial artists 27+

 

But, now we have the standards why not use them? why has every character even with no mention of athletic ability or training in their write up got to be dex 20 plus?

 

I would love to see most characters lowered greatly into the average to skilled and competent range with the special few characters whose concepts deserve it ranging into the legendary.

 

just as a simple exercise here are the characters from the champions genre book with the Dex's they maybe should have based on their descriptions.

 

Defender 18, Ironclad 8, Nighthawk 25, Sapphire 12, Witchcraft 10, Devestator 17, Green Dragon 27, Icicle 10, Mechanon 20, Pulsar 16, Tachyon 10, Talisman 10.

 

This gives a greater range and also points out those Batman, Captain America, Daredevil types as more special.

 

What do you think?

 

rgds

Torch

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Because the Champions Univese does not use the normal [Heroic] scale. An olympic gymnast in the Champions Universe would probably have a dexterity in the 25-30 range. Heroic and Super-heroic are two different scales which no one ever had a problem understanding until the 4E Dark Champions came along.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

I personally hate using what I have seen called here NCM Champions. I hate the idea that everyone must basically play within the same 3-7 CV range. What is the difference between Batman and Nightwing if everyone is limited to 20 dexterity? When you only have 4 steps between normal and peek-human you do not have the ability to show true differences [as with Nightwing and Batman], IMO.

[Blue]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

The books as they are aren't all that far off from how I've been running champions since around 2nd edition. In 1st I ran them much lower in general. But I have no problem with the stat inflation. I don't need to mirror the real world very much.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Just one more quick point: How does Tachyon with his 10 dex hit Nighthawk with his 25 dex? Must he always be -5 to hit, or does he buy levels to compensate? And if he buys levels then don't you just create a level inbalance [all the low cv characters with 4-8 levels when all the high cv ones only have 0-2]? So you end up with all the low cv characters as being super marksmen.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

The books as they are aren't all that far off from how I've been running champions since around 2nd edition. In 1st I ran them much lower in general. But I have no problem with the stat inflation. I don't need to mirror the real world very much.

I don't really see there being very much stat inflation between 1E and 5E. Grond was 18 dex/ 4 spd in Enemies II and he's 18 dex/ 4 spd in CKC. Overall very few characters seem to have been boosted [and the ones who were had it happen due to the 100 point PC build increase].

[Powerhouse]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Most of 5E Eurostar are at same dex or lower than their 4E counterparts as an example.

[Iuz the Evil]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Yeah, I gotta say that I always go with CSLs to offset the dexterity of my lower dex characters. My GGU PBEM brick Adamant has only a 17 Dex, but I have like 4 CSLs and some martial maneuvers (it's a 500 point campaign). The end result is an OCV of around 10+ when I decide to lay some smack on a baddie.

 

Even bricks want to be able to HIT once in a while...

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

It also simulates a convention of the superhero comics genre; superheroes (including nonpowered costumed characters) simply shouldn't be in danger from normals unless there's some severe planning or plot point going on. It's one thing if there's a remarkably complex plot going on where the heroes fall into a well-orchestrated deathtrap ... but if a thug pulls a pistol on *anybody* who wears a costume, they should be able to deal with it without being in any real danger. Hell, they should *laugh*.

 

10 Dex Talisman? She gets hit, regularly, by cops. ROOKIE cops. And probably goes after them in initiative order, so unless she was cruising with her Forcefield up or aborts an action, three cops could probably kill her.

 

Even considering a comic book character without agility as his schtick ... let's take Cyclops. He's no acrobat ... but, seriously, should Cyclops be regularly threatened (meaning 'in danger of losing to' not 'FREEZE, MUTIE') by rookie cops? If Hawkeye breaks up a mugging, should he stand a better than average chance of being hit by a Saturday Night Special?

[Enforcer84]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

I don't really see there being very much stat inflation between 1E and 5E. Grond was 18 dex/ 4 spd in Enemies II and he's 18 dex/ 4 spd in CKC. Overall very few characters seem to have been boosted [and the ones who were had it happen due to the 100 point PC build increase].

 

Most of 5E Eurostar are at same dex or lower than their 4E counterparts as an example.

Dex has remained constant or dropped in 5th Edition. And I see far mor CON 21 & 22 official characters thesedays. Have you noticed how similar the characters in Dark Champions are stat wise? Where's the fun in that?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

DEX "Inflation" is relevant only within the context of individual campaigns.

 

The spread of DEX in our long-running campaign is from 20 - 43, and nobody feels left out. I strongly disagree that in a Champions game an 18 DEX represents "near Olympic level" agility. That would be represented by a 16- or better Acrobatics or DEX roll. A DEX of 18 (Hence a 13- Acrobatics or DEX roll) probably represents someone with excellent overall coordination like a superb athlete or jet fighter pilot, but in the context of superheroes that's probably only a starting point. IIRC Ben Grimm was a college football star and military ace/test pilot, so I think we can assume he's right up in that range. I'd build the Thing with an 18 DEX plus several levels to represent his extensive experience.

 

SPD should probably count as much as DEX in combat situations. Cyclops probably shouldn't be threatened much by a trio of cops or muggers. But he's probably a SPD 4 or 5, and those opponents are at best SPD 3 normals. So Cyk spreads his eye blast enough hexes and takes out all three in one shot before they fire a single shot.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

There's not "best" way to handle what some people consider to be dex inflation. If you lower dexes then you need to increase levels, so instead of everyone being unusually agile they become unusually good shots. You're robbing Peter to pay Paul [your "fixing" one thing you think is broken by breaking something else].

 

People's perception of what the Hero System was changed after Espionage, Fantasy Hero, and Justice, Inc were published. Once the Heroic scale had been introduced everyone started talking about NCM and how 20 was supposed to be some maximum. This only got compounded when Dark Champions was released in 4E. If the original Champions Gurus had just stuck with the Champions scale [and allowed Espionage, for example, characters to be built on 200 points instead of 100] we would never be having these types of discussions now.

 

Our personal dexterity scale runs:

 

Child-like: 1 - 4

Challenged: 5 - 7

Average: 8-12

Competent: 13-15

Gifted: 16-20

Olympic: 21-25

Legendary: 26-30

Meta-human: 31+

 

That scale is the same for Captain Dex as it is for Joe Normal.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

There's not "best" way to handle what some people consider to be dex inflation. If you lower dexes then you need to increase levels' date=' so instead of everyone being unusually agile they become unusually good shots. You're robbing Peter to pay Paul [your "fixing" one thing you think is broken by breaking something else'].

 

Actually, if you lower DEX across the board, you end up with the same likelihood of hitting, since the OCV/DCV spread is unchanged, and you don't need any levels. Now you all get more points to place somewhere else.

 

The real problem, which you allude to, dates back to Champions 1st Ed. If we wanted "normal DEX' to be 10, and "Top Decile Human" to start at 20, then DEXes of sample characters, overall, should have been lower from the start. Instead of giving Bricks an 18-20 DEX, EP's a 21-26 DEX and Martioal Artists a 27 - 33 DEX, Champions could easily have gone the routy of setting the typical Brick's DEX at 8 to 11 ("normal human"), Energy Projectors at 11 - 18 (a bit to a lot above human average, but still in the realm of "human"), and martial artists at 20 - 23 (at or somewhat above the human norm). A 26 or 29 would then be looked at as utterly incredible.

 

We would have bricks with base CV's of 3 or 4 (not 6 or 7), EP's with 4 to 6 (not 7 to 9) and Martial Artisist with base CV's of 7 or 8 (not 9 or 10). A base CV of 9 or 10 would be incredible, instead of needing a 12+ as we do now.

 

Odds to hit - between Supers, pretty much the same as now.

 

But that rookie cop (OCV 3) would commonly hit the Thing or the Hulk (it would bounce off, of course). He'd have a tougher time with Energy Projectors (who he'd likely need an 8- or 9- before they add range, levels and/or dodging) and Martial artists? - forget it! He needs a 6 or 7 if they don't use any levels or maneuvers enhancing their DCV, and a 3 with that (martial) dodge!

 

But it's a little late now to unwind almost 25 years of history. Dex inflation started in first edition Champions, and has become a part of the "unwritten rules" of character generation for Supers.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

If you lower dexes across the board you are just left with all characters looking the same because they are all trying to fit in the 3-7 cv range instead of having a spread of 3-10. So Batman and Cap end up looking the same grouped at a 7 just as Daredevil and Nightwing look the same at 6, and almost every other superhero in the 5 group. As Enforcer said above: "Have you noticed how similar the characters in Dark Champions are stat wise? Where's the fun in that?" I agree with him completely.

[braincraft]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Because superheroes are also action heroes.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

If you lower dexes across the board you are just left with all characters looking the same because they are all trying to fit in the 3-7 cv range instead of having a spread of 3-10. So Batman and Cap end up looking the same grouped at a 7 just as Daredevil and Nightwing look the same at 6' date=' and almost every other superhero in the 5 group. As Enforcer said above: "Have you noticed how similar the characters in Dark Champions are stat wise? Where's the fun in that?" I agree with him completely.[/quote']

 

 

If you lower the range of DEX you get characters that look the same. If you change the range from the present 18 - 35 DEX (base CV 6 to 12) to a range of, say, 8 to 26, you get a range of 3 to 9, the same 6 point spread. You just get a lower "top end" and a lower "bottom end", and your typical Brick is no more agile than the typical man on the street.

 

A 5 DEX monstrosity now becomes reasonably playable (he doesn't need 5+ combat levels to have even a chance of hitting slower targets), and a 30 DEX really feels like someone at the high end of Superhuman.

 

If you just cnstrain DEX (ie leave the base level Brick at 18 and cap DEX at 26), you get a very tight range of 6 to 9 CV's, which I agree is far less desirable.

[Vorsch]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

As people have no problem accepting dex 20 as baseline, and GMs would accept any concept/character without a second thought, what about Str. Just make every character with str 20-30, after all heroes are better than normals and all comic characters are able to dodge cop bullits and beat them up.

 

I feel higher str across the board would upset people more as "unrealistic" due to Strs actual real physical effects compared to dexs more conceptual nature.

[Agent X]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

The Champions Universe guidelines place superhuman physical stats at 30+.

 

Normal Characteristic Maxima at 20 does not denote the threshold between human and superhuman. It denotes the threshold between normal human and very exceptional human.

 

If I have a complaint about CU characters, it is that there aren't very many characters who have a DEX of 30 above even when their power concept suggests they would have a superhuman dexterity.

 

Yes, I'm arguing for higher dexterity scores at the high end.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

If If you just constrain DEX (ie leave the base level Brick at 18 and cap DEX at 26)' date=' you get a very tight range of 6 to 9 CV's, which I agree is far less desirable.[/quote']I can't imagie any sensible GM seeing such a narrow range of DEX as being desireable. A spread of 5 or 6 CV's would make for far more character differentiation. Even with a base brick CV of 3 (DEX 10) that still lets you go up to 9 CV (27 DEX). Personally I think that's a rather low cap on DEX in Champions; after all this is supposed to be a game about extraordinary people; not ordinary ones.

 

Personally I don't like caps of any sort; and we no longer use them in our campaign. IME it inevitably leads to character compression. Let the point costs themselves be the cap; that's one of the beauties of a point-based system. Points spent on DEX or SPD or PD or whatever will not be available for other things.

[humantorch101]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

My point being is that many concepts such as bricks, mentalists, mages etc should really not be any more agile than the average human.

 

The whole point of characters such as the hulk, thing etc is that they soak up damage not avoid it.

 

Also notice I was not advocating reducing dex for characters whose concept warrants it such as Nighthawk and Green Dragon. This gives a much more wider CV base which in imo is much more desirable to point up the differences of such characters.

 

Levels should be used to represent sherer specialised skill with certain powers/equipment/fighting styles such as Green Arrows archery, Cyclops optic blasts and Daredevils fighting style.

 

rgds

Torch

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

My point being is that many concepts such as bricks, mentalists, mages etc should really not be any more agile than the average human.

 

The whole point of characters such as the hulk, thing etc is that they soak up damage not avoid it.

There's a difference between being able to avoid and not bother to avoid. A character like the Thing doesn't worry about getting out of the way of small arms fire. You can bet that he will try and use his full dcv to avoid Mjolnir flying at him though.

 

I think you are taking the stereotypes a little too far. Sasquatch is a very agile brick [as is Superman, Wonder Woman, and many others]. Professor X is not agile but Martian Manhunter is. Dr. Strange has incredible manual dexterity and is martial arts trained.

 

I'd also believe that speed and dexterity are not only physical traits but combat traits as well. Someone with a higher dex gains the benefit of OCV, DCV, and Iniative. Sometimes it's not that the character is that amazingly agile but the fact that he is very good at combat. Mr. Fantastic is not that agile of a person but his intellect and years of fighting experience give him all the additional dex perks. Yes I can buy Mr. Fantastic with a 12 sex and +10 lightning reflexes and +3 dcv and +3 hth, but why bother when I can just buy him a 21 dex?

[Agent X]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

My point being is that many concepts such as bricks, mentalists, mages etc should really not be any more agile than the average human.

 

The whole point of characters such as the hulk, thing etc is that they soak up damage not avoid it.

 

Also notice I was not advocating reducing dex for characters whose concept warrants it such as Nighthawk and Green Dragon. This gives a much more wider CV base which in imo is much more desirable to point up the differences of such characters.

 

Levels should be used to represent sherer specialised skill with certain powers/equipment/fighting styles such as Green Arrows archery, Cyclops optic blasts and Daredevils fighting style.

 

rgds

Torch

You are using the wrong examples for low dexterities when you use the Hulk and the Thing. They have both been described in many comics as being faster/more nimble than they appear " with speed that belies his bulk" and all that.

 

And let's remember, in the real word, muscle power, stamina, and speed are fairly intimately involved. Don't make me break out my weight training books and qoute for experts.

[Niles]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

My point being is that many concepts such as bricks' date=' mentalists, mages etc should really not be any more agile than the average human.[/quote']

You don't read many Superhero Comics, do you?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

My point being is that many concepts such as bricks' date=' mentalists, mages etc should really not be any more agile than the average human.[/quote']Except Champions is a game designed to reflect comic books, not real life. And comic book characters, like their pulp-era predecessors, are better than average at pretty much everything. They are stronger, faster, smarter, better looking. Considering that in the superhero genre a 30 DEX isn't even considered truly superhuman in Champions, just the peak of human possibility, a character like the Thing having an 18 DEX or the Hulk having a 20-23 is not at all unreasonable. Champions does not suffer from DEX inflation; it merely reflects the source material accurately. Indeed, given what Spider-Man's probable DEX would be in Hero terms (38-45 depending on who you ask) I'd say Hero has avoided inflating the numbers on their official characters rather well. IIRC the highest DEX in Champions or CKC is a 38.

 

One must also regrettably take metagaming factors into character design, and the simple point of the matter is that with an 11 DEX a brick or mage is simply not going to be viable in combat when mooks from VIPER are running around with DEX 14. Even official Pulp Hero™ NPCs have DEX in the mid to upper teens.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

I'm with you,Trebuchet.While it's true that many superhero concepts don't SEEM to require heightened DEX and SPD,that may not be neccessairily true.

A brick from a high-G world,for example,should have heightened DEX and SPD (as well as STR),as things fall much faster under high gravity.