Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

All it takes in Champions for extremely low Dex characters to be competitive is high defenses and either absorption or damage reduction.

 

Not if the plan to actually *do* anything. Villains need to actually be able to attack too.

[Zed-F]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Not if the plan to actually *do* anything. Villains need to actually be able to attack too.

Some points:

 

1) Villains work in teams too. Sometimes having a big punching bag up front to distract the heroes from looking for softer, harder to find targets can be a good thing.

 

2) If he can take a whole bunch of attacks without getting stunned, who says he won't get to attack? Not every hero team has learned how to coordinate their attacks yet. And when he does get to attack, he's as likely to lob an AOE car your way as anything else.

 

3) Sometimes the villain catches a single hero alone. Blob vs. a whole team is likely to be short. Blob vs. a lone martial artist or speedster could be an interesting fight.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

1) Villains work in teams too. Sometimes having a big punching bag up front to distract the heroes from looking for softer' date=' harder to find targets can be a good thing.[/quote']

I think most players aren't going to worry about the hard-to-hurt villain who needs to roll a 3 to hit them. They're going to by-pass him to attack the foes who can hit them.

 

2) If he can take a whole bunch of attacks without getting stunned, who says he won't get to attack? Not every hero team has learned how to coordinate their attacks yet. And when he does get to attack, he's as likely to lob an AOE car your way as anything else.

That's assuming your low dex character is a brick and not an energy blaster.

 

3) Sometimes the villain catches a single hero alone. Blob vs. a whole team is likely to be short. Blob vs. a lone martial artist or speedster could be an interesting fight.

Blob has an advantage in that he can "grab" people who punch him with his fat. I just don't like the idea that the only chance to hit someone like Juggernaut might have is to do brick tricks all the time [shockwaves, handclaps, etc]. It's out of genre, IMO.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Some points:

 

1) Villains work in teams too. Sometimes having a big punching bag up front to distract the heroes from looking for softer, harder to find targets can be a good thing.

 

2) If he can take a whole bunch of attacks without getting stunned, who says he won't get to attack? Not every hero team has learned how to coordinate their attacks yet. And when he does get to attack, he's as likely to lob an AOE car your way as anything else.

 

3) Sometimes the villain catches a single hero alone. Blob vs. a whole team is likely to be short. Blob vs. a lone martial artist or speedster could be an interesting fight.

 

Point, but those are all ways of attacking; they just don't rely on having a high OCV.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

1) Villains work in teams too. Sometimes having a big punching bag up front to distract the heroes from looking for softer' date=' harder to find targets can be a good thing.[/quote']

 

After one battle (two at the most, if the first was quite short) my players recognize who the dangers in the opposition who must be focused on first are. They will prioritize the guys who can take them out fastest, not the guys that they take out the slowest. Professor Punchingbag would almost certainly be ignored in the rematch until he's the last man standing.

 

I suppose he could Dive for Cover to intercept attacks - but wait, he has a lousy DEX so he won't make the rolls, will he?

 

2) If he can take a whole bunch of attacks without getting stunned' date=' who says he won't get to attack? Not every hero team has learned how to coordinate their attacks yet. And when he does get to attack, he's as likely to lob an AOE car your way as anything else.[/quote']

 

You assume he has an AoE car, and is a brick. You also assume the players don't close with the other members of HIS team. "Go ahead and throw that tanker truck, Professor Punchingbag! I'm pretty confident I'll weather the hit - your friends may not be so lucky!"

 

3) Sometimes the villain catches a single hero alone. Blob vs. a whole team is likely to be short. Blob vs. a lone martial artist or speedster could be an interesting fight.

 

Is "Quicksilver runs away, returning three phases later carrying Wolverine" your definition of an interesting fight? In any case, this type of example strikes me as structuring the scenario to favour the villain, much like setting all adventures featuring AtlanteanMan, whose powers all Only Work Underwater, conveniently deep in the ocean.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Blob has an advantage in that he can "grab" people who punch him with his fat.

 

A character designed with low DEX in mind!

 

This isn't a lot different than adding on lots of levels, or making attacks AoE, so that the slowpoke can be effective in combat, except that Blob's ability isn't universally useful. He can take out speedsters and MA's with that trick. Bricks can generally tear free, and ranged attackers don't need to touch him (a distinct advantage even without the Grab damage aura, all things considered ).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

If your heroic cat burglar isn't one of the world's greatest at it' date=' then he's probably only got the Hulk and Thing beat in acrobatics and climbing rather than base dexterity.[/quote']

 

This is where we disagree, primarily because we disagree where the Hulk and the Thing are at in terms of DEX relative to normal humans.

 

Supes predates Batman and is also connected to pulp stories.

 

Supes started the whole genre of superpowered characters. While he does predate Bats, and can claim some pulp roots, he quickly developed powers far beyond the Pulp tradition. Remember, early Supes could "leap small buildings in a single bound" (not fly), "bend steel in his bare hands" (but needed two hands to lift the car on the cover of Action #1) and was "faster than a speeding bullet" (but not fast enough to travel between cities on a near-instantaneous basis) and "nothing short of an exploding shell could penetrate his skin" (but that exploding shell could, nowhere near his invulnerability today). Even then, he was above the Pulp standard.

 

Ka-Zar has a sabre-toothed tiger as a pet and lives in the Savage Land along with all sorts of fantasy and science fiction weirdness. I'd say the environment he lives in is a tad more competitive than Tarzan's.

 

Tarzan had a pet elephant (don't recall any big cat pets though) and dealt with the Beastmen of Opar and similar fantastic jungle elements. I don't think he's hugely different from Ka-Zar.

 

And, great, top-end pulp characters make for low-end supers. That means they are built on quite a few points.

 

So what's the problem again?

 

To me, that characters like the Shadow, Doc Savage and the Avenger should logically have superior dexterity and agility than a huge pile of orange bricks like the Thing or most other "classic Bricks". Are the bricks stronger? By far. Are they tougher? Absolutely, and again by far. But the Pulp characters logically superior in agility. The premise that, to be Super, one must be superior in all respects to the next genre down is, in my opinion, flawed.

 

When the "high end" pulp characters look like they're moving in slow motion in comparison to their successors, the Super martial artists, we don't have a truly "universal" system. We have the same rule system used differently for different games.

 

Realy, how different, physically, should the Shadow, the Avenger, the Spider or Doc Savage be from Wildcat, the (Golden-Age) Atom, Hawkeye or Batman? In a typical "supers stats" game, they can't even hold their own against kid sidekicks.

[Agent X]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Not if the plan to actually *do* anything. Villains need to actually be able to attack too.

I wasn't thinking offense. Forgive me.

[Agent X]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

This is where we disagree' date=' primarily because we disagree where the Hulk and the Thing are at in terms of DEX relative to normal humans.[/quote'] Okay. I've read a lot of M2n1 and enough Hulk to stand by my interpretation. Seems like the filmmakers went with me in the Hulk and I don't believe the FF movie really proves the point either way as far as who they would support. I would like to point out that the Hulk has been shown as being able to tag Namor underwater. That's either a decent base Dexterity or an impressive number of levels. The Thing one-punched Wolverine in Contest of Champions. I'd interpret that as a lot of speed coming from an arm that can press many, many tons and reflexes capable of catching Wolverine off-guard once in a while.

 

Supes started the whole genre of superpowered characters. While he does predate Bats' date=' and can claim some pulp roots, he quickly developed powers far beyond the Pulp tradition. Remember, early Supes could "leap small buildings in a single bound" (not fly), "bend steel in his bare hands" (but needed two hands to lift the car on the cover of Action #1) and was "faster than a speeding bullet" (but not fast enough to travel between cities on a near-instantaneous basis) and "nothing short of an exploding shell could penetrate his skin" (but that exploding shell could, nowhere near his invulnerability today). Even then, he was above the Pulp standard.[/quote'] He wasn't out of the realm of pulp though: Hugo Strange, John Carter of Mars...

 

Tarzan had a pet elephant (don't recall any big cat pets though) and dealt with the Beastmen of Opar and similar fantastic jungle elements. I don't think he's hugely different from Ka-Zar.

Yes' date=' he was. It's a matter of degrees and then it's a matter of genre. Ka-Zar may be a pulp-like hero in a comic book world but that makes him a [b']comic book character[/b].

 

To me' date=' that characters like the Shadow, Doc Savage and the Avenger should logically have superior dexterity and agility than a huge pile of orange bricks like the Thing. The premise that, to be Super, one must be superior in all respects to the next genre down is, in my opinion, flawed. [/quote'] Sure. Heck, I'd put Doc Savage at or near the cap of legendary for many of his stats. That would mean a Dexterity of 28-30. Doc Savage would be an extremely expensive character. He's got physical stats that are almost equivalent, or are equivalent, to Captain America and an intelligence that would be up there with Reed Richards, an enormous lists of skills, etc.

[Zed-F]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Just as a reminder, we're (or at least I am) talking about the viability of low-dex-high-defense villains here. Villains can much more afford to have absurd weak points than heroes have; ultimately, they are generally supposed to lose. It's up to the players to figure out how to beat them, and if they do, all is well. Of course, not all PCs and not all player teams are equally smart/tactical.

 

I think most players aren't going to worry about the hard-to-hurt villain who needs to roll a 3 to hit them. They're going to by-pass him to attack the foes who can hit them.

...

After one battle (two at the most, if the first was quite short) my players recognize who the dangers in the opposition who must be focused on first are. They will prioritize the guys who can take them out fastest, not the guys that they take out the slowest. Professor Punchingbag would almost certainly be ignored in the rematch until he's the last man standing.

Are your PCs going to focus on the big punching bag who will one-shot them if he hits, and who can pick up a car to hit with, or go off and try to find the invisible mentalist or the sniper a half-mile downrange who are nickle-and-dimeing them? Just because the hard-to-hurt guy isn't the most agile in the world, does not necessarily mean he's slow, nor does it mean he's stupid. Sometimes the PCs will come up against tactical dilemnas like this one; how they handle it depends on what cards they bring to the table and how effectively they play them. For some teams, in some situations, taking out the brick first might not be a bad idea. Other times, it might be a really boneheaded stunt.

 

That's assuming your low dex character is a brick and not an energy blaster.

When have you seen a really unagile blaster in the comics? Low dex in the comics is almost exclusively the territory of bricks, semi-bricks, and mentalists.

 

Blob has an advantage in that he can "grab" people who punch him with his fat. I just don't like the idea that the only chance to hit someone like Juggernaut might have is to do brick tricks all the time [shockwaves, handclaps, etc]. It's out of genre, IMO.

Most metas with really low DEX have some sort of gimmick which allows them to land attacks, even if it's just whacking away with a car, unless they are deliberately supposed to be pathetic. They wouldn't last long if they didn't.

 

You also assume the players don't close with the other members of HIS team. "Go ahead and throw that tanker truck, Professor Punchingbag! I'm pretty confident I'll weather the hit - your friends may not be so lucky!"

That could work, especially if they know their opposition well enough to know strengths and weaknesses. OTOH, depending on circumstances -- like not being able to see/reach/touch PP's teammates, or not in fact being able to weather a swing of PP's favoured weapon -- maybe the PCs simply can't afford to ignore PP. And if the PCs do know all about PP and his friends, odds are pretty good that they know about the PCs too, and could reasonably expect them to show up. There's nothing that says the villains have to be stupid. Even if they didn't bring along the sniper and the invisible mentalist, they could, like, you know, have a plan. One that keeps the rest of the team out of harms way while PP slows the PCs down, letting PP's teammates (a) do whatever it is they are trying to do or ( counter-attack.

 

Is "Quicksilver runs away, returning three phases later carrying Wolverine" your definition of an interesting fight? In any case, this type of example strikes me as structuring the scenario to favour the villain, much like setting all adventures featuring AtlanteanMan, whose powers all Only Work Underwater, conveniently deep in the ocean.

If Quicksilver is off on his own, and runs into Blob doing something that's about to put innocent or police lives at risk, who says he has time to go find Wolverine, or that the latter is not busy fighting someone else? The fight is structured to challenge the hero; it's not necessarily a set-up. If the Blob isn't someone Quicksilver could reasonably fight on his own, then maybe Blob will be given a different dance partner, or maybe there will be some environmental factor that Quicksilver can use to even the odds. Of course, it could in fact be a set-up, if that's what the plot calls for -- but it doesn't have to be.

[Zed-F]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

As far as a general range for DEX goes, I haven't weighed in on that score yet, but I suppose I should just so that people don't get the wrong idea and think I'm arguing in favour of NCM Champions. I'm not. I have no problem with a fairly standard CU DEX range of say 18-30 or so, for 350 point games. But characters who fall outside that range -- especially villains -- can still be viable threats for the PCs to face, providing they are built with some sort of plan as to how they can still be effective despite their low DEX.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

I would like to point out that the Hulk has been shown as being able to tag Namor underwater. That's either a decent base Dexterity or an impressive number of levels.

 

Or Namor's not hugely dextrous either, although I'd still give him the advantage by a good margin underwater, and a smaller margin on the ground.

 

The Thing one-punched Wolverine in Contest of Champions. I'd interpret that as a lot of speed coming from an arm that can press many' date=' many tons and reflexes capable of catching Wolverine off-guard once in a while.[/quote']

 

The Thing is a character who deservedly can be given several levels with HTH. Wolverine's dexterity seems to fluctuate hugely, depending on whether the writer wishes to highlight his speed or his regenerative capacity. Punk agents seem to have no difficulty tagging Wolvie with guns, arrows and swords, so he can show off how fast he heals. He was initially conceived not as someone fast enough to avoid the Hulk tagging him, but as someone who could take a few hits from the Hulk and come back swinging..

 

He wasn't out of the realm of pulp though: Hugo Strange' date=' John Carter of Mars...[/quote']

 

Initially, Supes was an extension of these characters. As time went on, his existing powers grew and he discovered numerous new ones until he ultimately outstripped them as a separate class entirely.

 

In any case, if Supes is comparable to pulp characters, that only provides greater support for the assertion that pulp characters should have DEX levels comparable with Supers, as Supes himself is at the top end of just about every stat.

 

Yes' date=' he was. It's a matter of degrees and then it's a matter of genre. Ka-Zar may be a pulp-like hero in a comic book world but that makes him a [b']comic book character[/b].

 

So do Tarzan's stats change when he's published in a comic book instead of prose? he's had many comic book appearances (as have the Shadow, and to a lesser extent Doc Savage, the Avenger and the Spider, not to mention Hugo Danner's "son", Iron Munro). The two genres have a lot of crossover. Really, many comics in the late '30'/early '40s were just pulps with more illustrations.

 

Sure. Heck' date=' I'd put Doc Savage at or near the cap of legendary for many of his stats. That would mean a Dexterity of 28-30. Doc Savage would be an extremely expensive character. He's got physical stats that are almost equivalent, or are equivalent, to Captain America and an intelligence that would be up there with Reed Richards, an enormous lists of skills, etc.[/quote']

 

That's another way of looking at it, certainly. Now the question gets thrown back from "are the Supers too fast?" to "are Pulp Hero characters too slow for their genre?" Does Pulp Hero suggest levels of power for high end characters like those we've been discussng, or drawing the line between Pulp and Supers? My copy hasn't made it to the Frozen North yet.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Ultimately I don't believe using comic book characters as examples for debate is wise. There are too many decades of writers giving different interpretation of the characters. Also there is not point of reference to say that anyone is using the same era of characters in their examples.

 

I'm content to use the CU characters as they are written. I don't need 11 dex characters running with 6 levels running around [and quite honestly object to the 15 dex ones i have seen in official write ups]. If you advocate 11 dex PCs then you can't also have 30 dex PCs. The game becomes out of balance then. It's far easier to accept that npc normals have a wider range of stats then the caps most of you seem to want to give them.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

...The Thing one-punched Wolverine in Contest of Champions. I'd interpret that as a lot of speed coming from an arm that can press many' date=' many tons and reflexes capable of catching Wolverine off-guard once in a while...[/quote']

He's done that a couple times, actually.

 

 

 

Which is just another reason why Ben Grimm is so cool!

[Agent X]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

He's done that a couple times, actually.

 

 

 

Which is just another reason why Ben Grimm is so cool!

[Agent X]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Ultimately I don't believe using comic book characters as examples for debate is wise. There are too many decades of writers giving different interpretation of the characters. Also there is not point of reference to say that anyone is using the same era of characters in their examples.

 

I'm content to use the CU characters as they are written. I don't need 11 dex characters running with 6 levels running around [and quite honestly object to the 15 dex ones i have seen in official write ups]. If you advocate 11 dex PCs then you can't also have 30 dex PCs. The game becomes out of balance then. It's far easier to accept that npc normals have a wider range of stats then the caps most of you seem to want to give them.

I think that there are a lot of designs people just don't do that are perfectly legitimate. I'm not trying to rule out an 11 DEX or a 23 DEX or a 49 DEX.

[Agent X]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Or Namor's not hugely dextrous either' date=' although I'd still give him the advantage by a good margin underwater, and a smaller margin on the ground.[/quote'] Namor's agility underwater has been portrayed as being REALLY, REALLY high.

 

The Thing is a character who deservedly can be given several levels with HTH. Wolverine's dexterity seems to fluctuate hugely' date=' depending on whether the writer wishes to highlight his speed or his regenerative capacity. Punk agents seem to have no difficulty tagging Wolvie with guns, arrows and swords, so he can show off how fast he heals. He was initially conceived not as someone fast enough to avoid the Hulk tagging him, but as someone who could take a few hits from the Hulk and come back swinging.[/quote'] Wolverine's a ninja, supersoldier, feral mutant. He tends to wade through agents unless he's not in top shape or as a plot device. I think the writers were making a statement about what Ben Grimm was able to do.

 

Initially' date=' Supes was an extension of these characters. As time went on, his existing powers grew and he discovered numerous new ones until he ultimately outstripped them as a separate class entirely.[/quote'] Yeah, he did. But he was partly inspired by pulps.

 

In any case' date=' if Supes is comparable to pulp characters, that only provides greater support for the assertion that pulp characters should have DEX levels comparable with Supers, as Supes himself is at the top end of just about every stat.[/quote'] As you pointed out, he moved on, his powers skyrocketed. Superman has a superhuman dexterity that is well beyond the threshold between human and superhuman. Pulp characters, the ones I know about, aren't anywhere near him.

 

So do Tarzan's stats change when he's published in a comic book instead of prose? he's had many comic book appearances (as have the Shadow' date=' and to a lesser extent Doc Savage, the Avenger and the Spider, not to mention Hugo Danner's "son", Iron Munro). The two genres have a lot of crossover. Really, many comics in the late '30'/early '40s were just pulps with more illustrations.[/quote'] Tarzan is a pulp character who appeared in comic books in his own little world disconnected from Superhero Comic Books. Yeah, there has been crossover between pulps and superhero comics. The pulp inspired characters don't appear capable of tangling with Colossus, the Thing, Hulk, Superman, or Wonder Woman though.

 

That's another way of looking at it' date=' certainly. Now the question gets thrown back from "are the Supers too fast?" to "are Pulp Hero characters too slow for their genre?" Does Pulp Hero suggest levels of power for high end characters like those we've been discussng, or drawing the line between Pulp and Supers? My copy hasn't made it to the Frozen North yet. [/quote'] I haven't read Pulp Hero. Some of the assumptions I've already seen thrown around I don't agree with concerning Golden Age Superheroes* so I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that I think they have underpointed Pulp characters.

 

*The idea that Golden Age Superheroes are less powerful than later Superheroes doesn't really fit the Golden Age reprints I've read.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

The Planetary versions can, though.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Okay' date=' two supervillains have low dexterities. [/quote']

I was hoping you wouldn't notice

 

Heroes tend to be 'better'. Colossus, the Thing, Thor, the Hulk, heck even Strong Guy, are generally depicted as a bit swifter than normal.

[Balabanto]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

How can you possibly not see the brokenness of Krait?

 

He has a 110 point adjustment power multipower.

 

Pre 12: Krait Aids his DEX and SPD, bringing his effective Dex to 38 for the purposes of phase order and gaining a SPD of 7.

 

Phase 12: Krait selects the highest OCV character in the group (And he'll know this info before the fight starts because Krait does recon) and activates his +4 DCV Ability. He then drains this character's DEX and SPD. Kraits DCV is now 17 in HTH, which neutralizes the martial artist, and barring a massive area effect attack, renders this character ineffective against him. He runs END on his Damage Reduction this phase.

 

Unless anyone is extremely lucky, they don't hit. Spreading won't help you much, as if you spread 6 dice, you'll do one stun to him, and that will give you a whopping 10- to hit. He's probably 16" away, for a total OCV mod of -4, but his OCV is 13, so he needs a 12- to hit for that distance. If he wants to target a martial artist, he just has to be closer. It doesn't matter. Once he hits the martial artist, he doesn't have to run the damage reduction anymore, he has 50 stun and a 20 REC.

 

Then, now that the martial artist is gimped, he ego attacks the brick to death. Once he's done that, everyone else is meat.

 

Tactically, this villain is a nightmare if he's run competently. And he has allies.

 

Plus, all he has to do is hold a few actions, and no one ever goes again. That's right. You heard me. No one ever gets an action. The DEX/SPD crossover chart, properly used, with that drain, Krait can easily ensure that every character goes precisely once every twelve phases.

 

Worse still, a little power defense actually HOSES you. If you have the wrong amount of power defense, and it takes Krait 2 shots, one will be a little above average, one a little below, which means you'll be down about 2 SPD, 6 points of DEX, and the OCV/DCV that goes along with it.

 

Now, because you only recover 5 cp every 12 phases, there will literally be times where your character doesn't get to act at all, depending on the phase in which Krait drained you. This means that while you're picking your teeth and waiting for your DEX and SPD to cross over, Krait is taking recoveries with that 20 REC, and waiting for the right phase to nail you again so that you lose a whole bunch more actions.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

A couple things your missing:

 

-Mental defense. Anybody with some of it seriously cuts his efficacy, as IIRC, all his offensive tricks default to it ( which, btw, is also why that 110 point multipower is nowhere near as offensive as it might seem, as a ton of those points are spent just making everything BOECV )

 

-Most bricks have tons of Stun. If he tries to take on out with the Ego Attack, its gonna take forever, and burn a ****load of END

 

-Mental powers. While he does have some mental defense, most of his uberdefense tricks do dick against a power that uses ECV. Coincidentally, they are also the ones he'll have the hardest time effecting with all his powers

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

How can you possibly not see the brokenness of Krait?

 

He has a 110 point adjustment power multipower.

 

Pre 12: Krait Aids his DEX and SPD, bringing his effective Dex to 38 for the purposes of phase order and gaining a SPD of 7.

 

Phase 12: Krait selects the highest OCV character in the group (And he'll know this info before the fight starts because Krait does recon) and activates his +4 DCV Ability. He then drains this character's DEX and SPD. Kraits DCV is now 17 in HTH, which neutralizes the martial artist, and barring a massive area effect attack, renders this character ineffective against him. He runs END on his Damage Reduction this phase.

 

Unless anyone is extremely lucky, they don't hit. Spreading won't help you much, as if you spread 6 dice, you'll do one stun to him, and that will give you a whopping 10- to hit. He's probably 16" away, for a total OCV mod of -4, but his OCV is 13, so he needs a 12- to hit for that distance. If he wants to target a martial artist, he just has to be closer. It doesn't matter. Once he hits the martial artist, he doesn't have to run the damage reduction anymore, he has 50 stun and a 20 REC.

 

Then, now that the martial artist is gimped, he ego attacks the brick to death. Once he's done that, everyone else is meat.

 

Tactically, this villain is a nightmare if he's run competently. And he has allies.

 

Plus, all he has to do is hold a few actions, and no one ever goes again. That's right. You heard me. No one ever gets an action. The DEX/SPD crossover chart, properly used, with that drain, Krait can easily ensure that every character goes precisely once every twelve phases.

 

Worse still, a little power defense actually HOSES you. If you have the wrong amount of power defense, and it takes Krait 2 shots, one will be a little above average, one a little below, which means you'll be down about 2 SPD, 6 points of DEX, and the OCV/DCV that goes along with it.

 

Now, because you only recover 5 cp every 12 phases, there will literally be times where your character doesn't get to act at all, depending on the phase in which Krait drained you. This means that while you're picking your teeth and waiting for your DEX and SPD to cross over, Krait is taking recoveries with that 20 REC, and waiting for the right phase to nail you again so that you lose a whole bunch more actions.

Your concepts are off in a lot of places. First off, if he aids himself on phase 12 that is his entire action for the phase. Secondly, your math is off. On average his 4d6 aid is going 14 points, which breaks down to +4 dex and +1 speed. A 34 dex is still high but his phase is shot and he has used 11 of his end. Now the heroes get to go. He's only gained 1 dcv and wasted his entire action. Now all your heroes get to say "Goodbye Krait."

 

Krait is tough, but he is a 741 point villain, not a 350 point villain. But still 2-3 350 point heroes with the average 12d6 attack and 5 speeds will take him because they do more damage and get twice as many attacks.

[Balabanto]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Your concepts are off in a lot of places. First off, if he aids himself on phase 12 that is his entire action for the phase. Secondly, your math is off. On average his 4d6 aid is going 14 points, which breaks down to +4 dex and +1 speed. A 34 dex is still high but his phase is shot and he has used 11 of his end. Now the heroes get to go. He's only gained 1 dcv and wasted his entire action. Now all your heroes get to say "Goodbye Krait."

 

Krait is tough, but he is a 741 point villain, not a 350 point villain. But still 2-3 350 point heroes with the average 12d6 attack and 5 speeds will take him because they do more damage and get twice as many attacks.

 

Wrong again, Mitchell. He goes on DEX 38. Read the Lightning Reflexes line. And PRE 12, before the combat STARTS. This guy AMBUSHES people. He doesn't fight people straight up, because he doesn't HAVE to. He has stealth, you know. And if he's 16" away, that PER roll to spot him is at -4 plus his roll for his brand new DEX of 34, which is 16-. Make a PER roll at -9 with range. Even given +5 to all perception rolls on an INT of 23, a character will fail that roll 50 percent of the time.

 

He likely will recover EVERYTHING they do. He's DCV 17. You DO realize that the average OCV on even a 450 point hero is maybe an 11? So if they spread 6 dice each so they can hit him on an 11-, they deal one stun apiece? So what? Once he gimps the high OCV character and destroys his ability to act, he can mangle just about anyone.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Balabanto, I can't comment on your 600 point heroes but looking at the 400 point 4E Champions I see:

 

Seeker: 15d6, 29 dex, 7 speed, 20 def

Quantum: 14d6, 26 dex, 6 speed, 26 def [+14 def FW]

Obsidian: 15d6, 23 dex, 5 speed, 35 def

Jaguar: 12d6 [w/find weakness], 30 dex, 6 speed, 26 def

Solitaire: 14d6, 23 dex, 6 speed, 23 def

Defender: 13d6 [str] or 15d6 [eb], 28 dex, 6 speed, 26 def.

 

I can only assume your 600 point characters are more powerful than that. If not, the problem is not the 5E or 4E universes but how you choose to use them, IMO.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Wrong again, Mitchell. He goes on DEX 38. Read the Lightning Reflexes line. And PRE 12, before the combat STARTS. This guy AMBUSHES people. He doesn't fight people straight up, because he doesn't HAVE to. He has stealth, you know. And if he's 16" away, that PER roll to spot him is at -4 plus his roll for his brand new DEX of 34, which is 16-. Make a PER roll at -9 with range. Even given +5 to all perception rolls on an INT of 23, a character will fail that roll 50 percent of the time.

 

He likely will recover EVERYTHING they do. He's DCV 17. You DO realize that the average OCV on even a 450 point hero is maybe an 11? So if they spread 6 dice each so they can hit him on an 11-, they deal one stun apiece? So what? Once he gimps the high OCV character and destroys his ability to act, he can mangle just about anyone.

Let's just say that how you use a character and how I use them are very different. I don't have character burning massive end every phase like you do just to prove your point. Gee, why don't you just add that he pushes too?