Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

And I think the people who love the big tome would be purchasers of an annual that goes into all sorts of minutiae - I know I would.

Sort of like a new version of the HERO System Almanac, but mainly new rules / optional rules / expansions or interpretations of existing rules?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

FRED (HERO Fifth Revised Edition) is where all the rules all' date=' and it does have a brief splat section covering genres (including how to build mecha, giant robots, etc.)[/quote']

There is no such book. You may be thinking of "Hero System, Fifth Edition, Revised", aka "Hero 5", "H5", or "H5R". Or pehaps you have somehow confused H5R with "The Fred Factor", available on Amazon for $10.17 (with free shipping).

 

In any case, there is no "FRED" published by Hero Games, nor is there a "HERO Fifth Revised Edition".

"FRED", short for "Fifth Rules Edition", did indeed exist before 5ER, bblackmoor, and I think you are very well aware of it. You cannot be on these boards as long as you have and not know it.

 

Thia Halmades made a mistake (either getting the wrong "R" in FRED or typing FRED when 5ER was meant) but in either case there's no need to be insulting and look uninformed yourself in the process.

[zornwil]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Sort of like a new version of the HERO System Almanac' date=' but mainly new rules / optional rules / expansions or interpretations of existing rules?[/quote']

Yes, exactly.

[incrdbil]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

We've had so many different styles and options, maybe someone could make a poll of this. I think I've combined many requests into the following three formats, if there is somethign i've done wrong, or missed, correct it, then maybe make a poll after we carefulyl set out and explain each format.

 

When then day of the 6th ediiton arises, what would you prefer?

 

Similar Setup as 5th ediiton. Big Generic Book, Genre Book, Setting Book, Sourcebooks.

 

Next Option

 

Big Books plus Genre, Optional seperate Hero rules only, plus setting books. (IE--Hero System rules +genre book in one, so there would be a Champpions, Fantasy Hero, Star Hero) a generic Hero system book (replacing sidekick), then seperate setting books and sourcebooks. Pretty much 4th edition.

 

Or

 

Core Hero Rules Book, then seperate books that are the genre book and contain a default setting. Sourcebooks sold, and then alternate setting books that fit under the big three Genre+setting books.

 

Big book per Genre. Rules, genre, and setting all in one.

 

Sourcebooks galore for each, then alternate settings. Stripped down hero rules, then seperate setting or smaller genre book books outside of the big three (Champs, Star, and Fantasy).

 

Now, in addition to format, whats the style.

 

Big and Concise like 5th revised?

 

Short and sweet, with examples and clarifications in erratas, annuals, etc?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Never thought about it. Personally, I like having a giant core rulebook; I prefer to do my own writing, so I don't need no steeking setting books. The only reason I purchase Forgotten Realms material is because it always has new spells and Prestige Classes. I'd rather read the information and research in a HERO book, as they're better written. But I'm off topic.

 

Core Rulebook, genre book that promotes a setting, and then start doing tie-ins to promote the additional material.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

"FRED"' date=' short for "Fifth [b']Rules[/b] Edition"...

 

There is not and has never been a book published by Hero Games called either "Fred" or "Fifth Rules Edition".

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

When then day of the 6th ediiton arises' date=' what would you prefer?[/quote']

 

Core books: mechanics and default setting, one book per primary genre.

Sourcebooks: additional detail (people, places, things) for the core books.

Sourcebooks: variant genres and settings.

 

Concise: examples and clarifications in erratas, annuals, etc.

 

But I am not holding my breath.

[Kirby]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

There is not and has never been a book published by Hero Games called either "Fred" or "Fifth Rules Edition".

No one said it was an official title. It's a nickname, as you well know. Being anal retentive just makes you look petty, again.

BBB - Big Blue Book = 4th Edition

FREd - Fifth Revised Edition = HERO System 5th Edition

5ER - 5th Edition Revised = HERO System 5th Edition Revised

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Core books: mechanics and default setting' date=' one book per primary genre./QUOTE']

 

Hmmm...buy all the mechanics once for each of Fantasy, Supers, Science Fiction, Horror, Action/Adventure and each other Primary Genre, or just buy them once?

 

I think I'd prefer not to pay for the exact same thing six + times, so I'm going to vote against your poreference.

 

[ASIDE: You don't like the nickname "FReD". We get it. The rest of us have no problem with that nickname. Let it die.]

[incrdbil]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

I myself, of course favor my own option. Core rule book, then a Genre book with default setting.

 

I too, dont want to pay for the core rules three times over. Thjis method keeps the Hero=Toolkit approach, bu reduces seperate purchases (and items to keep on shelf, stock numbers for distributors to keep handy) by a bit. The combo genre/setting book gives you seed material even if you make your own setting, but for the newbie, its a great combination--section on genre, then an example of execution.

 

The one big book approach is just too big of a book.

the core + Genre + settign three book minimum for those wanting a pre-fabbed setting is a bit much. Especialyl since its really more like for or 5, since you;'ll need a CKC, or for Fantasy the spell grimoires or monster expansions.

 

I think the method I endorse is a compromise--sure, fewer titles to make money on. But less intimidating to newbies; more time to work on a less demanding schedule. Fewer items to worry about getting printed in time, and stocked to the distributors in sufficient quantities.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

I think I'd prefer not to pay for the exact same thing six + times' date=' so I'm going to vote against your poreference.[/quote']

 

Realizing, of course, that none of us get a vote at all.

 

But I have to wonder about people who would rather not be able to buy a usable, playable game. I guess you don't often encounter people who are not yet already Champions players. If you did, you would know that two of the three main reasons people shy away from Hero System are 1) that the core rules are ridiculously, absurdly, outrageously long, and 2) that they can't just buy a book and play the game -- they have to buy a freakin' library. Sure, I already have that library, and you already have that library, but that's beside the point. Most people are not the steadfast Hero fans that you and I are.

 

The third reason, of course, is that they think the mechanics require too much mathematical fiddling, but that's not something a content reorganization is going to help.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Realizing' date=' of course, that none of us get a vote at all.[/quote']

 

We all get a vote. The question is whether any votes count.

[Agent X]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

There is not and has never been a book published by Hero Games called either "Fred" or "Fifth Rules Edition".

[Agent X]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Realizing' date=' of course, that none of us get a vote at all.[/quote'] edited

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Realizing' date=' of course, that none of us get a vote at all.[/quote']Grow up. Nobody wants to hear you whine because you didn't get to pick the nickname.

 

None of us get a vote on the organization of the rules.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

We all get a vote. The question is whether any votes count.

 

Heh-heh. Is that better?

 

P.S. For what it's worth, I don't know about anyone else, but I am taking this all good-naturedly, still basking in that Christmas good cheer. So let's keep it light, okay?

[proditor]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Hopefully dodging landmines as I go, was this the origin of FRED?

 

Fans on the boards: So Steve, what are you going to call the new book since the old one was the Big Blue Book?

 

Steve Long: I don't care if you call it Fred, as long as you buy it.

 

Or is that a HERO myth that just sounds good?

[Kirby]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

If you did' date=' you would know that two of the three main reasons people shy away from Hero System are 1) that the core rules are ridiculously, absurdly, outrageously long, and 2) that they can't just buy a book and play the game -- they have to buy a freakin' library. Sure, [i']I[/i] already have that library, and you already have that library, but that's beside the point. Most people are not the steadfast Hero fans that you and I are.

 

The third reason, of course, is that they think the mechanics require too much mathematical fiddling, but that's not something a content reorganization is going to help.

(My initial feeling is that when you refer to "people" you actually mean "bblackmoor" but I could be wrong.)

 

I disagree. I played Champions, back in the BBB days, for nearly a year before I purchased the main book. That book being BBB, of course. This was even before Heromakr, or at least, before the group I was with knew of Heromakr. (I started playing around 1992-3, if anyone knows when Heromakr actually came out.) The math wasn't a problem; it's really applied junior high mathematics. I have a player in my FtF game and the ONLY book she has is the Fantasy Hero book, though it was an error by the store personell because she was trying to order FREd.

 

My personal opinion on why HERO Games isn't booming is because the younger audiences (those who haven't graduated high school) who enjoy Collectable Card Games have closed off the higher-thinking areas of their brains. Once they become more intelligent, they'll enjoy HERO.

[Kirby]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Hopefully dodging landmines as I go, was this the origin of FRED?

 

 

 

Or is that a HERO myth that just sounds good?

Yes, that's pretty much it, (paraphrased, I believe).

 

Here in June, 2003, is one of the earliest posts/threads I can find referencing this.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

(My initial feeling is that when you refer to "people" you actually mean "bblackmoor" but I could be wrong.)

 

No, by "people" I am referring to the 6-10 people who, at every convention I go to, express interest in the game (because I am running one at the con), and with whom I have almost the exact same conversation each time, as I agree with their first two reasons for being skittish about Hero, and then try to show them that the game system is not as complex as they have heard/as it looks at first blush.

 

Sometimes I am successful. Sometimes I am not. But it would be easier if the books were organized as I have suggested.

 

Am I "whining" about it? I don't think so, but if it seems that way, I'll give it a rest for a couple of months until someone on these boards brings the subject up again.

[CBikle]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

No, by "people" I am referring to the 6-10 people who, at every convention I go to, express interest in the game (because I am running one at the con), and with whom I have almost the exact same conversation each time, as I agree with their first two reasons for being skittish about Hero, and then try to show them that the game system is not as complex as they have heard/as it looks at first blush.

 

Sometimes I am successful. Sometimes I am not. But it would be easier if the books were organized as I have suggested.

 

 

 

This might help:

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Amazing how reality intersects with a flip comment from a designer. I was under the impression - clearly, from my post, and seeing how other people do generally refer to it as "FREd" - that it was a flipped short hand.

 

Heh. Amusing.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

But I have to wonder about people who would rather not be able to buy a usable' date=' playable game. I guess you don't often encounter people who are not yet already Champions players. If you did, you would know that two of the three main reasons people shy away from Hero System are 1) that the core rules are ridiculously, absurdly, outrageously long, and 2) that they can't just buy a book and play the game -- they have to buy a freakin' library. Sure, [i']I[/i] already have that library, and you already have that library, but that's beside the point. Most people are not the steadfast Hero fans that you and I are.

My introduction to the game was with the 4th Edition Rules, not the BBB or any other incarnation of Champions. Heck, I had been playing for 2 years before even getting into Superheroes. And I certainly had no problem with the rulebook being a Playable, usable Game without a genre book. That was the appeal to me.

 

And, just a note as long as you're on a nitpick rant - your review of 5ER should be updated, or have a note appended, that the printing problems you go on and on about are no longer there as they switched printers and the quality on successive reprints is much much higher than that first run.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

ER... sorry, coming in late to this particular rant, but if we're talking about buying a library...

 

Player's Handbook

Dungeon Master's Guide

Monster Manual

 

Complete rules for ice/snow/cold environments? Frostburn.

Water/Pirate adventures? Stormwrack.

Psionics? Psionics Handbook & Enhanced Psionics Handbook

 

I have quite a few HERO books. Combat, FH, FREd, Grimoires I & II, etc. & so forth. HERO by itself is a playable game that requires imagination, but does cover some genres and gives plenty of example powers.

 

D&D is game that takes three books (called Core Rulebooks I - III) and "contains" the world of Greyhawk. I have somewhere between 10 & 15 Forgotten Realms books, 5 or 6 Eberron books and all 19 Ravenloft 3.0/3.5 books, and that only covers about 1/3rd of my total collection. Like Derek, I'm a DINK.

 

How is this significantly different from purchasing Valdorian Age? Or Turakian Age? People make books so we buy books so they make money. D&D is more approachable and it has pretty pictures, and a lot more marketing behind it. The mechanics appear to be equatable to me.

 

Core rules. Supplemental Rules. Genre books.

 

Or am I missing something?

[zornwil]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

My introduction to the game was with the 4th Edition Rules' date=' not the BBB or any other incarnation of Champions. Heck, I had been playing for 2 years before even getting into Superheroes. And I certainly had no problem with the rulebook being a [i']Playable, usable Game[/i] without a genre book. That was the appeal to me.

 

And, just a note as long as you're on a nitpick rant - your review of 5ER should be updated, or have a note appended, that the printing problems you go on and on about are no longer there as they switched printers and the quality on successive reprints is much much higher than that first run.

Were the 4th edition rules sold without the backup Champions section? I didn't recall that. So it's like half the size?