Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

[zornwil]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Anything with a STOP is not in Sidekick. I'd have to check but I think all the ! Sign powers/items were removed as well. No frameworks of any kind that I can recall.

 

Sidekick is an excellent beginers book, and even a simple reference for basic rules due to being to brief.

 

And the biggest reason it is so brief is the lack of examples that exist in 5ER (and FRED) - which I think makes the book a good resource for an all-in-one. You've got rules and how-to suggestions in one big book so anywith needed some examples has no need to go anywhere else. I like it for that reason at least.

I'm pretty sure MP and EC were in there, though I may find I'm wrong, I'll check when I'm home.

[zornwil]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Every edition of Hero System gets bigger and bigger. AustinAndrews pointed out that this makes it the object of ridicule outside of its current hardcore fanbase. I replied that yes' date=' it does, but that's okay -- [i']if[/i] one wants Hero System to go the way of Star Fleet Battles.

 

I guess some history is in order. Briefly, Star Fleet Battles was a tactical wargame created in the late 1970s, based loosely on the original Star Trek. Initially, it was a fun game with enough complexity to make repeated gameplay worthwhile. However, Task Force Games published rulebook after rulebook, until by the mid 1980s it was not uncommon for a Star Fleet Battles player to arrive at the game carrying a stack of rulebooks up to her chin.

 

By this time, there were so many rules, the sheer volume of the game became a detriment to playing it. Existing players trickled away, and new players stayed away in droves. Star Fleets Battles died, essentially.

 

A few years ago, a company called Amarillo Design Bureau took over the license for SFB. I do not know what has happened with it since then, but I have heard that they intend to release new material for the game. I wish them luck. I enjoyed the game, back when I played it.

 

I hope that answers your question. I admit it was a pretty oblique reference. I am sorry if I was not clear.

No worries, now I get it, I didn't realize that story re Starfleet Battles. Reminds me of some of the wargames produced during the heyday of such (such as some of GDW's biggest output and Advanced Squad Leader).

[zornwil]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Anything with a STOP is not in Sidekick. I'd have to check but I think all the ! Sign powers/items were removed as well. No frameworks of any kind that I can recall.

 

Sidekick is an excellent beginers book, and even a simple reference for basic rules due to being to brief.

 

And the biggest reason it is so brief is the lack of examples that exist in 5ER (and FRED) - which I think makes the book a good resource for an all-in-one. You've got rules and how-to suggestions in one big book so anywith needed some examples has no need to go anywhere else. I like it for that reason at least.

 

Well' date=' my own opinion is that I can always *not* read something that *is* there. The reverse is far more difficult.[/quote']

 

Regarding the thoroughness issue, I realize we're rehashing other arguments, but I want to be clear. The objection I (and some) have to 5/5ER's approach is the level of minutiae and situations covered. I don't dispute that clarity was needed in regard to some things in 4th, and don't therefore object to that. But I don't think the issue is number of examples or being clear, it's how nuanced the rules need to be, especially in light of an RPG where it is routine for GMs to make calls regarding particularly nuanced situations.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Well, to be fair, a great deal of those minutiae are in response to fan requests for clarification and examples, both before and since Fifth Edition was published. Whether or not that much stuff should have been included in the core rulebook is open to debate; but in any case it would have been a lot smaller if so many HERO gamers weren't so... inquisitive. (Took me a while to find a polite word.)

 

Still, it's a lot easier to look up all those details in the organized rulebook than the previous FAQ.

[incrdbil]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

It's a detailed review of a product I purchased. No more' date=' no less. If the manufacturer (who [i']has[/i] been notified of the problems) replaces the product with one that corrects the deficiencies, the review will be updated. That is SOP for reviews of any type.

 

Well, it looks like the problem has been addressed. ou could perhaps examine the product of those with the newer printings, or simply update your review to note that it has been reported that your review was based off one printing, and since then those issues have changed.

[gojira]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

I'm pretty sure MP and EC were in there' date=' though I may find I'm wrong, I'll check when I'm home.[/quote']

 

I just purchased Sidekick to use with a Teen Champions PBEM game. I'm an old Champions player so I understand most things, but some of the details of the newers rules can trip me up (newer means "since 1989" here).

 

Anyway, there are some stop sign powers in Sidekick. Desolidification comes to mind, for example. Claresentience, EDM and FTL are in there too.

 

MPs and ECs are in there, although in a simplified form. The MP described uses only ultra slots. There's an all multi slot MP described briefly on the side bar. No rules for mixing ultra and multi slot MPs. The EC described has to have exactly one half of each power in the control cost. No going over or under.

 

There are no VPPs, Gadget pools, or any other type of frame work other than the basic MPs and ECs I mention.

 

There are also some notable ommisions in the powers and other sections. The big one that stood out for me was that there was no Combat Luck. This would be easy to describe, but I'm guessing it was eliminated just because DOJ had to leave something for the full rule book. Likewise there's a big list of skills, but I didn't see any skill enhancers, and the skill levels are very basically described. Think champs 3rd ed. Vehicle rules are about four pages.

 

Still overall it was a very decent introduction to the current rule set.

 

 

I'd like to add that I think Sidekick obviates every gripe about the rules being too big, or not part of a genre book. Just get Sidekick. Heck, just copy it off. While not totally legal, I doubt DOJ would complain much as long as you bought at least one genre book to go with it. For a con, I can't see that the DOJ would not give premission to distribute free copies of Sidekick to any players who participated in your demo game. It's no real loss to them, and if it results in the sale of a couple of genre books and supplements, heck they've come out ahead.

 

Sidekick seems like more than enough to get you started. Once you start playing and decide you like it, then the group can spring for the full rules. *This* is how Hero System should be pushed. Start with Sidekick and one genre book. Upgrade later when you feel you need to.

 

Hmm, in fact, perhaps genre books should be written to include extra or dumbed down rules for Sidekick owners. "If you only have Sidekick, just assume the villian has an all ultra slot MP and wing it."

 

 

It might help if DOJ made this official policy. I.e., get a free copy of Sidekick with any genre book. Con demo givers can apply to give free copies of Sidekick to their players, contact DOJ for details.

 

Hint, hint.

[zornwil]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

I think since DOJ only charges $10 for the PDF, they'd really strongly prefer people not just make copies.

 

From a legal standpoint, gojira, they can't afford to just let people do this. It's tantamount to losing intellectual property rights. If a company does not strictly enforce their ownership over intellectual properties, it can easily be interpreted to pass into public domain. This is why Disney is so over-the-top, as well as other companies - they fear that by not pursuing even the smallest of reuses (especially for a company like Disney with so many iconic popular characters) they will lose valuable rights.

 

PS - but they CAN just GIVE people doing con games or demos copies of the actual electronic PDF or book, of course.

[gojira]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

PS - but they CAN just GIVE people doing con games or demos copies of the actual electronic PDF or book' date=' of course.[/quote']

 

Only $7, when I bought mine online.

 

But this was indeed my point. Yes they can't actually allow people to make any copies they want. But they can give the right to a copy based on purchases, or consign rights to others to make X copies on a limited bases. This does not lose them their rights to the original.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Gojira beat me to it regarding what is and is not in Sidekick .. I picked it up, read it through once and let it sit ... waiting for when someone goes "So, what's this HERO game you keep mouthing off about" and I hand them Sidekick and go "Wanna learn?"

 

When they're hooked I smack 'em with 5ER

 

...but that's not happened yet, maybe I should get out of the house more often.

 

I personally don't mind the minutae as it does help, IMO. but hey, I'm crazy.

[zornwil]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Only $7, when I bought mine online.

 

But this was indeed my point. Yes they can't actually allow people to make any copies they want. But they can give the right to a copy based on purchases, or consign rights to others to make X copies on a limited bases. This does not lose them their rights to the original.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

[Mantis]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Reminds me of some of the wargames produced during the heyday of such (such as some of GDW's biggest output and Advanced Squad Leader).

Since you brought up ASL...

 

There is a parallel between ASL and HERO in that you need to make a minimum of two purchases - a large, solid rulebook plus a game module - Beyond Valor (BV). There was a second option of a cheap, self-contained module, Paratrooper (PARA), but this did not allow you to progress to later modules - BV contained the entire German and Russian counterset, plus all the system counters, but PARA contained only a small sub-set of the German and American counterset and a minimum of system counters. Later modules were for the countersets for other nationalities.

 

These two modules also assumed that the player had previously played the Squad Leader series and had all the boards from them. While ASL has a solid, devoted customer base, the numbers were nowhere near the original Squad Leader game, and the customer base has continued to dwindle over time.

 

A year or two ago, the publishers of ASL (MMP) brought out the first ASL Starter Kit (ASLSK). The intention is to bring out three of these modules, the first covers only basic Infantry rules, leaving out a lot of the chrome responsible for the ASL rulebook's bloat, the second (recently published) covers Guns, and the third (due next year) covers Vehicles. However, unlike "full" ASL, each of these modules is self-contained. Each one is playable with just the rules, scenarios, counters and boards in the box, and each costs a fraction of the full Rulebook (Rulebook: $80; BV: $95. ASLSK#1: $24; ASLSK#2: $28). Even MMP were surprised by the success of ASLSK#1, as they sold out the first print run and had to reprint it. Now a certain percentage of these sales went to grognards looking for a way to introduce gaming buddies to ASL, but anecdotal evidence is that the majority went to new blood. Some are folks who played SL in the past but didn't want to shell out big bucks for ASL, and some are just gamers who wanted to try out ASL.

 

One other thing MMP has done: they have updated the contents of BV so that it too is self-contained (apart from the rules). They did this by changing from bulky, hard-mounted boards to boards printed directly on cardstock. This allowed them to include extra boards without increasing the bulk or price of the game, and they also added extra scenarios, all of which only use the counters and boards included in the box. A new player who chooses to move from ASLSK up to full ASL can buy the rulebook and BV and start playing without making any further purchases.

 

Now I can also see a direct parallel between the ASLSK route and the Sidekick-and-genre-book route that so many folks have suggested or supported over the past year or so if not longer. The ASLSK series has been an unqualified success. The question now should be when will HERO games produce their "HERO Starter Kit"??