Exponential "Cost" System

[Mister E]

Somebody I met in City of Heroes (an MMORPG) mentioned that he has changed his version of HERO to mirror the exponential nature of the system, by "costing" Powers and such exponentially.

 

This idea is like reaching the next level for me.

 

I imagine that if this were to be done, the cost of Powers would be doubled every 5 Active Points, and the Players would be given more Character Points to start their Characters with.

 

Has anyone toyed with this idea before? Some of you must have tried it, or are in fact doing it right now. Tell me what you think. I'm currious to know what you do (or would do), and how many Character Points you'd give in order to model a normal 350 pt Character.

[Cancer]

Re: Exponential "Cost" System

 

I imagine that if this were to be done' date=' the cost of Powers would be doubled every 5 Active Points, and the Players would be given more Character Points to start their Characters with.[/quote']

 

*Cough*. A 90 active point power undergoes ... 13 doublings? Sum over i from 0 to 13 of 2^i * 5 ... 81915 points.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Exponential "Cost" System

 

How are Advantages and Limitations handled?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Exponential "Cost" System

 

Eg. Hrrrrmmmm. Then why have them progress exponentially any longer? If you are going to have them cost exponentially and have exponential effect, you might as well just return to a linear system (i.e. +5 Str adds +100kg to lift and costs 5 points).

[Mister E]

Re: Exponential "Cost" System

 

*Cough*. A 90 active point power undergoes ... 13 doublings? Sum over i from 0 to 13 of 2^i * 5 ... 81915 points.

Hm... yes, that's true. It's almost as if the exponential point cost represented exactly how powerful a 90 active point Power was.

 

I'm not really a fan of having to deal with huge amounts of numbers, and it seems like something like this would strongly pidgeon-hole the power-level of a game.

 

Forget it.

 

Unless... there was some way to make sense of these big numbers, and put them into context by framing them somehow. This is probably beyond most people's interest to work out, however.

 

Okay. What if we were to (check me out on this) double the point cost only every 20 Active Points? Kind of like using NCM as a precedent-type measuring stick.

 

1-20 = 1 for 1

21-40 = 2 for 1

41-60 = 4 for 1

61-80 = 8 for 1

81-100 = 16 for 1

 

Skills would need to be costed differently. I'm thinking this really isn't worth the hassle.

 

Never mind.

[Agent X]

Re: Exponential "Cost" System

 

Check out the old Mayfair DC rpg to see how they handled an quasi-exponential cost system.

[Jaxom]

Re: Exponential "Cost" System

 

Since I know Cancer I have to tease him for getting the sum right but the range wrong. 90/5=18 -> range is 0 to 17 -> 1,310,715 points for a 90 point power (with a cost of 2^17=131072 points per active point for the last 5). It gets better if you come to a 10 point or 20 point range...

 

90 active points doubling every 10 points -> 5,110 points (and 2550 of that is the last 10 active points).

 

doubling every 20 points is better still -> 460 points (16 points per active point for each of 81 to 90).

 

If you want the "more experience to go to higher levels" effect then you want to go linear and you probably want larger ranges. 10 or 20 active points and then increase the cost linearly for the next range... 1 point per active point to 20, 2 points to 40, 3 points to 60.

 

The net result in any case is going to be to favor skills, perks and diversity over signature powers. Note that this is *not* equivalent to MMORPGs where your original powers get better and you also get new, bigger powers for reaching the next level.

 

Besides, the only purpose this serves is to create a complex, sliding reward system that attempts to reward players for dealing with bigger baddies earlier in their lives. Making it mathematically complex is fine if you are a computer (or a wannabe computer). If you are a GM, you directly control the player's advancement rate anyway. "How much experience for tonight, boss?"

 

All you are doing by monkeying with the costs is telling players how you want them to spend points. By making the first 5, 10 or 20 points cheaper than higher active point costs all you do is tell the players that you favor diversity.

[Zed-F]

Re: Exponential "Cost" System

 

No, no. A thousand times no! Well, maybe a dozen or so times no.

 

It's already more effective in many ways to have a lot of small powers that stack together than to have single large powers. A bit of STR here, a little Density Increase there, a touch of Growth, some Martial Arts, and a Hand Attack, and you're talking serious ownage. Most of that can already be put in an EC as it is. Similarly, you can add several small defenses together to good effect. Making small powers that stack together well even cheaper relative to single large powers is just asking for trouble.

[Cancer]

Re: Exponential "Cost" System

 

Since I know Cancer I have to tease him for getting the sum right but the range wrong....

 

Yeesh. I've been taking arithmetic lessons from my son.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Exponential "Cost" System

 

I see the appeal of something like this, but I don’t think that’s the right way to handle it. (Nor do I subscribe to the ‘5 points doubles everything’ theory’)

 

One consistent problem with dealing with the ‘added powers’ issue, is that either 1) all the powers individually must be tiny, or the final power is way, way, too big.

 

Example: Cap’s shield. A normal shield bash is what, +2d6 HA? This is a super-mega-indestructible shield, so it should be worth more, right? So, +4d6, say. Now, if Cap’s a good martial artist, and he is, his MA should be floating around campaign average. So you get a 12d6 base.

 

The common way to deal with this, is to kick down the attack value of the shield, but that means when the Taskmaster runs off with it, it’s suddenly made of Balsa Wood.

 

Now, there are a few other ways to fake it, like buying the shield as a big HA and buying Cap’s MA without the ‘use art with shield,’ or buying the shield as a Limited Advantage, (usually AP) but those are kludges.

 

The problem works the other way, too. Punching Man’s ‘Big Iron Gauntlets!’ shouldn’t do the same extra damage when a real brick puts them on. Just because they can boost a normal to 8d6, doesn’t mean they should boost a super to 16d6.

 

Obviously, you can (and should) just handwave it. Caps shield is only +1d6 for him, but +6d6 for a normal, and like that. But it would be nice if there was some system-based solution, as long as it didn’t add too much complication.

 

---

Why the heck do I always spell it ‘Iorn?’

[prestidigitator]

Re: Exponential "Cost" System

 

I see the appeal of something like this' date=' but I don’t think that’s the right way to handle it. (Nor do I subscribe to the ‘5 points doubles everything’ theory’)[/quote']

You're right. It doesn't double everything. The actual effectiveness in the system is certainly not doubled most of the time (can't remember if there are some Adders that might, say, double radius for that). The difference between 20 Str and 25 Str is +1d6, not +4d6.

 

What doubles, or is supposed to double, is the effectiveness of something environmentally; in terms of story and description. You can exert twice the force, blow through a wall that is twice as thick, or whatever. It is perceived effect that doubles, not game effectiveness. In a sense this actually represents a diminishment of returns. In order to be a little more effective in practice, you have to up the amount of energy enormously (exponentially). To get that +1d6 you have to pour in twice the force/energy/whatever. That seems realistic--or at least reasonable--to me.

 

What I think we don't want to see, because it becomes frustrating and boring, is diminishment of returns in the character points we spend. We want 5 points to mean something; to be significant. We work just as hard to get that 5 experience whether we have 25 point characters or 500 point characters, so we want it to be just as effective when we spend it. This is where D&D has gone wrong, especially of late: while they made it harder to earn experience by making gains relative to player level, it still takes a geometrically increasing amount of it for character growth. Players want to see their characters continue to grow even when they are 15th level, and it becomes very discouraging and annoying that it takes 3 years of gaming once a week to see any changes (okay, that's probably a little exaggerated, but that's how it feels).

[Mister E]

Re: Exponential "Cost" System

 

Well said, Presto.

 

 

As a side note, I'm embarrassed I even started this Thread.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Exponential "Cost" System

 

Well said, Presto.

 

 

As a side note, I'm embarrassed I even started this Thread.

Weakness! Pounce everyone!

 

Seriously, don't worry about it. We all need to ponder these things from time to time. I've had a thousand times as many bad ideas (if there is any such thing) as good, and I'm not sure it is healthy to consider how many of them I have acted upon. Keeps us humble...er, theoretically anyway.

 

P.S. - I'm in fact glad it came up. I think I had another small insight into the differences between different progressions, and one of the reasons Hero is more appealing than D20.

[Cancer]

Re: Exponential "Cost" System

 

As a side note' date=' I'm embarrassed I even started this Thread.[/quote']

 

Don't be. It's really easy to forget just how prohibitive an exponential increase can be. I have lots of students who never learn that.

[Mister E]

Re: Exponential "Cost" System

 

Don't be. It's really easy to forget just how prohibitive an exponential increase can be. I have lots of students who never learn that.

Well thanks...

[Mister E]

Re: Exponential "Cost" System

 

Weakness! Pounce everyone!

 

Seriously, don't worry about it. We all need to ponder these things from time to time. I've had a thousand times as many bad ideas (if there is any such thing) as good, and I'm not sure it is healthy to consider how many of them I have acted upon. Keeps us humble...er, theoretically anyway.

 

P.S. - I'm in fact glad it came up. I think I had another small insight into the differences between different progressions, and one of the reasons Hero is more appealing than D20.

Likewise.

[Von Hase]

Re: Exponential "Cost" System

 

What you're considering is effectively GURPS. The game is on almost exactly the same scale and points costs, with the exception that it scales in cost. However, for the above noted reasons it is not exponential.

 

As power increases so do prices. It looks less like doublings and more like this.

 

1-20 = 1 for 1

21-40 = 1.5 for 1

41-60 = 2 for 1

61-80 = 2.5 for 1

81-100 = 3 for 1

 

You'll have to adjust your own scales and come up with a ruling on whether or not this affects Active and/or Real costs, when and how. You also have to decide if this affects other things like Skills and Talents. You're looking at a serious amount of work, somewhere akin to writing your own supplement.

 

But, if it's something you're willing to do. Give it a go. I would strongly suggest looking into Dark Champions: The Animated Series for advice on how to run a Street Level superhero game, which is effectively what you're going to end up with.

 

But, it can be VERY fun and rewarding to play in a setting where characters are vulnerable to things we mortals can empathize with like guns and knives.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Exponential "Cost" System

 

What I think we don't want to see, because it becomes frustrating and boring, is diminishment of returns in the character points we spend.

 

Heh. I remember one homemade supers game I was a player in, about 10 years ago. First round of combat, I rolled a super-bad fumble, and ‘damaged’ one of my powers permanently.

 

I then realized it would take more than 50 average sessions to buy back the damaged power to it’s original level. (It used a White-Wolf-esqe exponential buying system)

 

The actual system went downhill from there. Fun game, though.