Usable on Others Questions

[Just Joe]

This is related to the "Desolidification or Tunnelling" question I just posted, but here I'm asking a more general question.

 

How does one build a power (e.g., desolidification, invisibility, or mental defense) that affects the user and everyone in a fixed area (e.g. certain radius) around the the user, costs END to the user only, and stops affecting someone as soon as they leave the set area? It seems to me to be a very natural class of Usable on Others powers, but I don't see how to build them with the UOU rules.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Usable on Others Questions

 

Usable As Attack and Area of Effect is what you need.

[Just Joe]

Re: Usable on Others Questions

 

Usable As Attack and Area of Effect is what you need.

I think that leads to a few problems. The biggest might be that UOUAA may not be used on oneself (5ER, p. 275).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Usable on Others Questions

 

I think that leads to a few problems. The biggest might be that UOUAA may not be used on oneself (5ER' date=' p. 275).[/quote']

 

Same page says the GM may permit the PC to "attack" himself. With an area effect, I'd be inclined to allow the character to be affected because he's in the area.

 

If you don't like that approach, he can always buy an equal amount of the defense Linked to the UOAA power.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Usable on Others Questions

 

You could always add the +1/4 from ‘useable simultaneously’ on top of the +1 for UAA.

 

Since with an AOE attack, you’re already paying for the ability to affect multiple targets, I’d be inclined not to require it on a AOE UAA.

 

---

‘Drawer Forwarding’ is a hard power to build . . .

[ghost-angel]

Re: Usable on Others Questions

 

Since AoE affects even the user with normal attacks (grenades for example) I'd say this would allow the User to be affected as well.

 

Otherwise we have some questions about Personal Immunity and when it really needs to be applied....

[Just Joe]

Re: Usable on Others Questions

 

Since AoE affects even the user with normal attacks (grenades for example) I'd say this would allow the User to be affected as well.

 

Otherwise we have some questions about Personal Immunity and when it really needs to be applied....

OK, I was already leaning toward buying this approach after Hugh Neilson's post. This removes any remaining reservations (for me, at least). It still strikes me as odd that this kind of thing is not addressed more directly in the rules, though.

 

That still leaves at least one issue: UOU (of any sort, I believe) standardly stays in effect until the target (1) is released by the person with the original power, (2) moves out of LOS, or (3) moves out of range. (I might not have those precisely right, but as long as I'm close, my following point is still pertinant). But the AOE UAA we're discussing stops affecting a character the instant she leaves the area. Presumably that's a limitation. How much should it be? Ideally, I'd like to see an official answer to this, but assuming it's not there to be found, opinions are welcomed.

 

Actually, a similar issue could arise with regard to UAA that are not AOE. Suppose, for example, I want to build an invisibility or desolidification attack that not only has no range, but stops working as soon as the target breaks free from the attacker's grasp/touch.

 

Actually, come to think of it, this is something that could come into play with a non-attack UOU too. A character might need to stay in physical contact with his teammate to keep her invisible. I think there's an example close to this in Gadgets & Gear using a shield to defend others and no limitation is given. This seems wrong to me. Opinions?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Usable on Others Questions

 

I think the biggest problem is I am not sure whether you can cause a UAA power to effect multiple targets with the area effect meachnics: it has its own mechanic for how many targets you can effect.

 

Sean 'Spanner' Waters

[Just Joe]

Re: Usable on Others Questions

 

I think the biggest problem is I am not sure whether you can cause a UAA power to effect multiple targets with the area effect meachnics: it has its own mechanic for how many targets you can effect.

Ugh. I think I will ignore that issue when I'm GM' date=' but it might be a legitimate concern if one wants to follow the rules strictly. But it would be [u']really[/u] annoying if you can't make a UAA AOE. I would think that at the very least, one could buy multiple targets as per UAA and then add AOE on top. If there are too many targets in the AOE, either some method would be needed to be determined which are affected, or the power just wouldn't work in that case. But that would be awfully expensive.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Usable on Others Questions

 

Ugh. I think I will ignore that issue when I'm GM' date=' but it might be a legitimate concern if one wants to follow the rules strictly. But it would be [u']really[/u] annoying if you can't make a UAA AOE. I would think that at the very least, one could buy multiple targets as per UAA and then add AOE on top. If there are too many targets in the AOE, either some method would be needed to be determined which are affected, or the power just wouldn't work in that case. But that would be awfully expensive.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure how UAA works against multiple targets: you clearly don't need area effect to effect multiple targets - you buy the x2 targets advantage. Now how you are supposed to target multiple opponents if you have bought he advantage, I just don't know. I'd probably treat it like a small nonselective AoE in any event (assuming you bought the power with range) or only against targets in physical contact with each other (if you didn't).

 

We might need a rule on that in 6th edition

[prestidigitator]

Re: Usable on Others Questions

 

To be honest, I'm not sure how UAA works against multiple targets: you clearly don't need area effect to effect multiple targets - you buy the x2 targets advantage. Now how you are supposed to target multiple opponents if you have bought he advantage, I just don't know. I'd probably treat it like a small nonselective AoE in any event (assuming you bought the power with range) or only against targets in physical contact with each other (if you didn't).

 

We might need a rule on that in 6th edition

Nah. Just use Area of Effect. The Area of Effect Advantage normally changes a Power that affects one target into one that affects multiple targets. Even if it happened to be a Power that required UAA to be used on someone else I wouldn't say it needs to be bought up to Usable Simultaneously, but if it didn't apply to the Power's owner, I would allow it to take Not on Self (-1/2) or Personal Immunity (+1/4), whichever is most applicable to the Power. Of course, the downside of using AoE is that you are affecting everything in the area in the same way; that means you affect both friends and enemies in the area, and the only choice you have in the matter when an enemy is within range is to use the Power or to not use the Power.

 

Other Modifiers that might be useful depending on the particular case are: No Range (though if you had to buy UAA I believe the Power has no range already, so this doesn't apply), Reduced End Cost (I believe UBO/UAA Powers cost End by default, but I could be wrong), and Continuous. I would take a good look at the wording of Usable By Others (including Usable As Attack) so you know which of these are needed.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Usable on Others Questions

 

Since AoE affects even the user with normal attacks (grenades for example) I'd say this would allow the User to be affected as well.

 

Otherwise we have some questions about Personal Immunity and when it really needs to be applied....

 

Agreed, and for pretty much those same reasons.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Usable on Others Questions

 

I want to build an invisibility or desolidification attack that not only has no range' date=' but stops working as soon as the target breaks free from the attacker's grasp/touch.[/quote']

 

The Limitation: Reduced Range: No Range does exactly that.

 

The exceptions are AOE and Explosion, both of which by default have a range of sorts until you leave the affected area. But even then, with 'no range,' the AOE or Explo will center of the origination point of the power.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Usable on Others Questions

 

To be honest, I'm not sure how UAA works against multiple targets: you clearly don't need area effect to effect multiple targets - you buy the x2 targets advantage. Now how you are supposed to target multiple opponents if you have bought he advantage, I just don't know. I'd probably treat it like a small nonselective AoE in any event (assuming you bought the power with range) or only against targets in physical contact with each other (if you didn't).

 

We might need a rule on that in 6th edition

What prestidigitator said, really.

 

All attacks default to 1 Target, AoE defaults to all objects in the target area.

 

In fact, AoE still only have one target - the hex it is centered on. It just happens to affects a boarder range physically than "The Object Hit."

 

So UBO, AoE should act like any other power with AoE on it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Usable on Others Questions

 

What prestidigitator said, really.

 

All attacks default to 1 Target, AoE defaults to all objects in the target area.

 

In fact, AoE still only have one target - the hex it is centered on. It just happens to affects a boarder range physically than "The Object Hit."

 

So UBO, AoE should act like any other power with AoE on it.

 

 

I have to disagree (it is a personality flaw )

 

The difference between a 'normal' attack power with AoE and a UAA/UOO power is that the latter already has a mechanic for effecting multiple targets. Adding AoE doesn't supercede that. Have a look at the teleport gate write up. It uses both AoE and UOO and specifically says you would need to buy up the mass limit to get large objects through the gate. You have to comply both with the size of the AoE and the limit on the mass that the advantage on UOO allows you to carry. I appreciate this is all a bit odd: we are into some reasonably esoteric constructs here, but it makes sense, surely. After all, UOO/UAA is already a STOP power. How much more so if you could (for instance) make ALL your enemies float up in to the sky in one fell swoop?

 

For a +1 advantage on Useable simultaneously, you can increase the limit from one target to 16 targets OR you could buy an AOE with a 6 hex radius area, that's 127 hexes. Even if you could only get one person in a hex, that's a lot of people. If you could just buy AoE you wouldn't need the increased mass/targets mechanic at all.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Usable on Others Questions

 

I have to disagree (it is a personality flaw )

 

The difference between a 'normal' attack power with AoE and a UAA/UOO power is that the latter already has a mechanic for effecting multiple targets. Adding AoE doesn't supercede that. Have a look at the teleport gate write up. It uses both AoE and UOO and specifically says you would need to buy up the mass limit to get large objects through the gate. You have to comply both with the size of the AoE and the limit on the mass that the advantage on UOO allows you to carry. I appreciate this is all a bit odd: we are into some reasonably esoteric constructs here, but it makes sense, surely. After all, UOO/UAA is already a STOP power. How much more so if you could (for instance) make ALL your enemies float up in to the sky in one fell swoop?

 

For a +1 advantage on Useable simultaneously, you can increase the limit from one target to 16 targets OR you could buy an AOE with a 6 hex radius area, that's 127 hexes. Even if you could only get one person in a hex, that's a lot of people. If you could just buy AoE you wouldn't need the increased mass/targets mechanic at all.

What makes an Energy Blast (attack) different from a Teleport Attack (beyond the UOO construct) that requires different rules? Aren't we trying to simplify the system?

 

Second - the AoE requires everyone to be in the radius and stay in the radius. AoE x16 Targets lets them have more free roaming capability. You get what you pay for really.

 

And Gates ... work specifically by Mass, not number of targets. So you can AoE them all you want, it will only work on 100kg default. Attacks work by Target, not Mass ... otherwise an EB could also conceivably need a xMass multiplier so it can use AoE properly.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Usable on Others Questions

 

I have to disagree (it is a personality flaw )

 

The difference between a 'normal' attack power with AoE and a UAA/UOO power is that the latter already has a mechanic for effecting multiple targets. Adding AoE doesn't supercede that. Have a look at the teleport gate write up. It uses both AoE and UOO and specifically says you would need to buy up the mass limit to get large objects through the gate. You have to comply both with the size of the AoE and the limit on the mass that the advantage on UOO allows you to carry. I appreciate this is all a bit odd: we are into some reasonably esoteric constructs here, but it makes sense, surely. After all, UOO/UAA is already a STOP power. How much more so if you could (for instance) make ALL your enemies float up in to the sky in one fell swoop?

 

For a +1 advantage on Useable simultaneously, you can increase the limit from one target to 16 targets OR you could buy an AOE with a 6 hex radius area, that's 127 hexes. Even if you could only get one person in a hex, that's a lot of people. If you could just buy AoE you wouldn't need the increased mass/targets mechanic at all.

As far as I am concerned the increased mass Adders/Advantages are for objects and carried weight. The increased number of characters in UBO is for the number of people who can use a UBO Power simultaneously, and I don't think it is really meant to fit with UAA. For actually hitting multiple targets with something simultaneously, I have to go with AoE (well, or Explosion).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Usable on Others Questions

 

Right, prestidigitator has it, there is a difference between UAA and UBO.

 

I would take a UBO, AoE on a case by case basis still though.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Usable on Others Questions

 

As far as I am concerned the increased mass Adders/Advantages are for objects and carried weight. The increased number of characters in UBO is for the number of people who can use a UBO Power simultaneously' date=' and I don't think it is really meant to fit with UAA. For actually hitting multiple targets with something simultaneously, I have to go with AoE (well, or Explosion).[/quote']

 

You are quite right: I posted a question to Mr Long and he confirmed that you buy UAA to effect a single target then buy AU to affect many.

[Just Joe]

Re: Usable on Others Questions

 

But the AOE UAA we're discussing stops affecting a character the instant she leaves the area. Presumably that's a limitation. How much should it be? Ideally, I'd like to see an official answer to this, but assuming it's not there to be found, opinions are welcomed.

 

Actually, a similar issue could arise with regard to UAA that are not AOE. Suppose, for example, I want to build an invisibility or desolidification attack that not only has no range, but stops working as soon as the target breaks free from the attacker's grasp/touch.

 

Actually, come to think of it, this is something that could come into play with a non-attack UOU too. A character might need to stay in physical contact with his teammate to keep her invisible.

I posted a question to Mr Long and he confirmed that you buy UAA to effect a single target then buy AU to affect many.

His answer to your question (part 2, in particular) answered my question (self-quoted above) as well. The no range lim is worth -1 for a constant power if moving away can stop a power that was activated at no range. I infer that a power that is already no range (whether AOE or not) gets a -1/2 lim if it stops working when an affected target moves to range (i.e. away from the user or out of the defined area, as applicable). Thanks, S.W.