Sean Waters Posted October 3, 2005 Report Share Posted October 3, 2005 Here’s a repost in shortened form of the point and purpose of the post: If you fall or are knocked back you take DCs of damage = velocity If you deliberately run/fly into a wall or are martially thrown into it you take DCs of damage = velocity/3 Is there a good reason for this apparent dichotomy? If you are picked up and thrown at an object (using the strength/distance thrown chart rather than a throw manoeuvre) I can not see in the book what damage you take. Can anyone help here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Re: Look out for the wall! Here's what the post originally said. OK, it was a bit wordy..... Here’s one for you. Quite a long one. I could probably have asked it in about three lines but I’m not in that sort of mood. Let me introduce my assistants, Rubber Boy and Rubber Girl. They are identical twins: well, apart from the fact one is a boy and one is a girl. The point is they have identical character sheets (well apart from the 'name' and 'sex' boxes): they are both virtually invulnerable to physical damage and have a vulnerability (2x knockback). Say ‘Hi’, guys. Rubber Boy: er…hello… Rubber Girl: **giggle** OK. Now they are going to help me illustrate something that is bothering me. Rubber Girl, come over here would you, and stand near the edge of this tall building. Rubber Girl: Why? Never mind that, just stand there and…. Rubber Girl: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Ooh, look at her go. When she hits the ground she’ll be doing 30†per segment, and will take 30d6 damage… Rubber Boy: You just pushed my sister off a building….. Don’t worry, I haven’t forgotten you, Rubber Boy. See that Throbmoaniumâ„¢ wall behind you? Rubber Boy: What are you doing with that Repulsor gun? Ooh, look at him go….I’ve just hit Rubber Boy with an 8d6 repulsor, and after calculating KB and taking his vulnerability into account, he’s taken 30†of KB. Watch as he hits the Throbmoaniumâ„¢ wall and takes 30d6 damage… OK, so far so good. Now my good friend ‘The Hurler’ has been kind enough to bring Rubber Girl back up and he’s going to strap a 30†flight rocket pack to her back, and point her at me standing in front of the wall. First I’m going to dodge as she approaches. Rubber Girl: NoooooooooooooooCRASH Ooh, look at that. She hit the wall travelling at 30â€, but as she was smart enough to try and control her movement and move through it, but she has a strength of zero, she took v/3 = 10d6 damage. Now we have a rocket pack on Rubber Boy. This time I’m not going to dodge, I’m going to use a held phase to throw him into the wall as he approaches. Rubber Boy: What? NoooooooooooooooooFlipCRASH Look, Rubber Boy took 10d6 too: a throw does v/3 damage too, even though he hit the wall in an uncontrolled fashion at 30†velocity. Now, finally, once more we turn to Rubber Girl. Hurler, if you’d be so kind… Rubber Girl: Let me go! Oh do come on, you are virtually invulnerable to physical damage. Rubber Girl: Only VIRTUALLY, I’m no…..oooooooh sh….. Hurler has been good enough to throw rubber girl at the wall, and thanks to his 85 strength has done so at 30â€. Now I’ve looked in the book and do you know what? I have no idea how much damage Rubber Girl just took. Anyway, thanks, RB, RG and Hurler. I’ll call you again next time I need to run a demo… The point is that even though, on each of the five occasions that one of the twins impacted a solid surface, they did so at 30†velocity BUT the damage in the first two instances was 30d6, 10d6 in the second two and who knows what in the last one. This would be true even if both I and the twins were speed 12. Seems to me that there’s something rotten in the State of Denmark, but, more to the point there is something wrong with the way we calculate velocity related damage. Would anyone care to show me the obvious point I’m missing here….? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Re: Look out for the wall! Well, when you do a throw, it's v/5, not v/3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Re: Look out for the wall! Well, when you do a throw, it's v/5, not v/3. Well spotted: that just makes it worse though. Three people hitting a solid wall all travelling at the same velocity take either Velocity, Velocity/3 or Velocity/5 depending on HOW they happened to be in that unfortunate position. That really makes no sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Re: Look out for the wall! For a better answer, I can offer the following: Falling (and presumably) KB velocity is per Segment, and Move Through and Martial Throw veloticy is per Phase. Technically, there's a hang up when you have a really high SPD, but it all balances out around SPD 4. As for throwing someone into something (not using their velocity against them), such as a brick does, you simply do your STR damage, as you would for crushing or punching. In your example, that's 17d6. Also in throwing, there is no velocity (as a game mechanic) at work here, just damage and distance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Re: Look out for the wall! Well spotted: that just makes it worse though. Three people hitting a solid wall all travelling at the same velocity take either Velocity' date=' Velocity/3 or Velocity/5 depending on HOW they happened to be in that unfortunate position. That really makes no sense.[/quote'] Um, hit someone with hammer. once with the blunt head, once with those pointy nail pullers, and once with the handle.... same hammer each time, different results. I dunno... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Re: Look out for the wall! Well spotted: that just makes it worse though. Three people hitting a solid wall all travelling at the same velocity take either Velocity' date=' Velocity/3 or Velocity/5 depending on HOW they happened to be in that unfortunate position. That really makes no sense.[/quote'] Well, your whole problem is that you are confusing velocity with velocity, and they are clearly different things. Seriously, this could probably have been just as easily a problem with Move Through and Move By calculating the extra DCs differently. Do these things bug me? Maybe a smidge, but not enough to bother with, probably. If it makes you feel any better, the throw doesn't really produce a velocity, it produces a distance. As far as I know, the throw damage DR was talking about is the added damage of a Martial Throw against someone who is moving, which probably equates more easily to a Move By or a Move Through than someone being picked up and thrown bodily (which does the thrower's Str in damage, I believe ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike W Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Re: Look out for the wall! Martial Throw was not really built for bouncing people off walls. I'd calculate the damage as velocity based on the distance chart. I.E. Look at the Throwing Distance Chart, see how many "inches" they would have gotten, then convert it to DCs - but remember the max damage is based on the DEF and BODY of what they hit. As for why falling is Full DC and a Move Through is V/3, part of it is: 1. Game balance. Flying into something via move through, for example, your STR is part of the calculation. To keep the maneuvers from doing excessive damage, something had to give. 2.Also, in KB or falling, it's harder to be "in control" or "expecting" or "bracing" for the impact. So you're totally vulnerable. But a move through, you can generally see coming, so you can brace for it a bit. Also, you can use things like Breakfall to reduce damage from Falling of Knockback. You can't do it for Move Through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Re: Look out for the wall! I think there are a few simple changes that can bring things back into line. 1) Get rid of velocity factor in throws. The main benefit of throws is to make an opponent prone. Stick on half-STR damage or something similar and leave it like that. 2) Rework knockback. Instead of calculating distance, calculate distance and velocity. After all, the current rules have the idiotic situation where theoretically a character can knockback an object they couldnt throw. Some reworking of this type would also allow for some fabulous multi-action knockbacks - such as when characters are shown to be hurled back for more than 1 panel of a comic book. Unfortunately, i dont have the time to propose a recalculation right now! Anyone else? Phil the Buck-passer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Re: Look out for the wall! 2) Rework knockback. Instead of calculating distance, calculate distance and velocity. After all, the current rules have the idiotic situation where theoretically a character can knockback an object they couldnt throw. Some reworking of this type would also allow for some fabulous multi-action knockbacks - such as when characters are shown to be hurled back for more than 1 panel of a comic book. Unfortunately, i dont have the time to propose a recalculation right now! Anyone else? Phil the Buck-passer Why would you want to calculate distance AND velocity? Do either one or the other. Personally I like the game simplicity of calculating distance and then converting what's left of that distance into dice of damage when you hit something. It's quick and simple. I'm sure you have, in the past, bumped your fridge (or some other piece of furniture) along the floor but wouldn't be able to throw it...so perhaps the situation isn't so idiotic. If you were going to calculate velocity then you'd have to be doing Newtonian style calculations to work out how fast the person was moving 4" or 8" later when they smacked into the wall. Down with velocity!! Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Re: Look out for the wall! Why would you want to calculate distance AND velocity? Do either one or the other. Erm, because without both (or time) you have an incomplete equation. Or you stick with the current system, which allows an average superstrong PC to easily propel someone at speeds of 24m/s, just over 500mph. I think it'd be nice to extend KB to multiple segments, and it wouldnt *have* to be hugely complicated. It could be something as simple (non-worked out and very off-the-cuff) calculate KB as normal, speed of dice/3, recorded on the charactersheet for easy reference (minimum 4" per segment) , time is KB/speed. Personally I like the game simplicity of calculating distance and then converting what's left of that distance into dice of damage when you hit something. It's quick and simple. I agree. Quick and simple, a fundamental requirement. Consistency would be nice though. I dont propose a tight newtonian model (hehe, I dont propose any model!) but something that treats knockback, move through and falling the same would be nice. I'm sure you have, in the past, bumped your fridge (or some other piece of furniture) along the floor but wouldn't be able to throw it...so perhaps the situation isn't so idiotic. So when I'm bumping the fridge, I'm using my 2d6 HA not my STR 10? That's just silly. I do hope the fridge has DEF 4+, or one time in 36 I'm going to be buying a new one Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Re: Look out for the wall! Erm, because without both (or time) you have an incomplete equation. Or you stick with the current system, which allows an average superstrong PC to easily propel someone at speeds of 24m/s, just over 500mph. I think it'd be nice to extend KB to multiple segments, and it wouldnt *have* to be hugely complicated. It could be something as simple (non-worked out and very off-the-cuff) calculate KB as normal, speed of dice/3, recorded on the charactersheet for easy reference (minimum 4" per segment) , time is KB/speed. If you know the velocity then everything else is simply newtonian mechanics. You _could_ limit the movement per segment and that might mean that the PC flying through the air manages to get off a last despairing EB before they crash into the vault door... I'm concerned by the speed reference though. If a STR 60 brick punches someone and gets 14" knockback then, in the current system that takes place over one segment - 28m/s? Don't think so. The problem is that at the end of the segment there is no velocity remaining - it all dissipates over the segment. Under your system you would calculate velocity rather than distance - the victim then travels at a velocity away from the attack and begins to accelerate towards the ground due to gravity. The distance is going to depend on how far he travels before he hits the ground and then how quickly the friction of hitting the ground brings him to a complete stop. There is a lot of physics going on there that I don't want to think about. Obviously this begins to mean that the angle of attack and angle of KB relative to the ground becomes important (that changes how quickly the victim hits the ground and increases the distance travelled horizontally while tracing his parabola). More calculations... If you calculate speed (Dice/3) then I think you have to say that the horizontal speed will not change between leaving his feet to hitting either the ground or a solid object. The speed will then dissipate. You might want to say that a standing target will hit the ground in one segment and for every 2" height the time increases by one segment. So when I'm bumping the fridge, I'm using my 2d6 HA not my STR 10? That's just silly. I do hope the fridge has DEF 4+, or one time in 36 I'm going to be buying a new one Are you saying that I'm wrong? You have bumped the fridge along using your momentum rather than straight physical strength. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Re: Look out for the wall! Here’s a repost in shortened form of the point and purpose of the post: If you fall or are knocked back you take DCs of damage = velocity If you deliberately run/fly into a wall or are martially thrown into it you take DCs of damage = velocity/3 Is there a good reason for this apparent dichotomy? If you are picked up and thrown at an object (using the strength/distance thrown chart rather than a throw manoeuvre) I can not see in the book what damage you take. Can anyone help here? Obviously, with a Move Through you're positioning your body to take less damage. Unless it changed in 5E, the extra damage from Martial Throw isn't from your velocity after you're thrown but before. The martial artist is redirecting some - not all - of your momentum against you. The divisor defines that fraction. If a brick throws you at something else, you can do a Move Through to decrease the damage. The real question is, if you fall off a building, why can't you just do a Move Through on the ground? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Re: Look out for the wall! One other thing. Throwing distance is not realistic: it would be nice if it worked in that kinda straight line way, but it SHOULD basically have a maximum that you can throw anything up to an appreciable fraction of your maximum lift then tail off sharply. Go to the beach or a lake and pick out three stones, the biggest maybe the size of your palm, the next about half the sizeand the last about half the size of that. You'll be able to throw each roughly the same distance even though, being half the size is an eighth of the mass, and a difference (in HERO) of about 15 strength between each (so 30 between largest and smallest). Throw distance should also be a function more of speed and technique than strength for objects which are light for your strength. What do I want, eh? The moon on a stick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Re: Look out for the wall! Throwing distance is not realistic ..... For a game that simulates people shooting lasers from their fricken heads I'd say it's sufficient. The Ultimate Brick has more and expanded rules on throwing objects, check there as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted October 5, 2005 Report Share Posted October 5, 2005 Re: Look out for the wall! Really, the mechanics here are not important at all. The real core of the problem is that this thread was not titled "Watch out for that Tree!" ::runs off to make a swinging move through based PC with really poor aim:: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Anomaly Posted October 5, 2005 Report Share Posted October 5, 2005 Re: Look out for the wall! Rember to make him strong, too. "George, George, George of the jungle, Strong as he can be..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted October 5, 2005 Report Share Posted October 5, 2005 Re: Look out for the wall! Really, the mechanics here are not important at all. The real core of the problem is that this thread was not titled "Watch out for that Tree!" ::runs off to make a swinging move through based PC with really poor aim:: Well, we were, of course, all thinking it, but those of us with a little more decency decided to leave it unsaid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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