The Munchkin Build Contest

[Doc Samson]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

Quite amusing but...

 

1. This is not 'heal' - the points you lost from an attack are still gone until recovered normally: you can be unconscious and not know it with this power.

 

2. There has to be a reasonably common way to switch it off, even if you do have 'always on' and 'persistent'. That is going to be the real pain, once your enemies learn the shut down code

 

3. Succor is already continuous (well constant - which is what the continuous advantage does - it is not needed)

 

4. A GM would have to be very drunk to allow a power with a sizeable autofire in it anywhere near his game.

 

5. Why bother with 'only up to starting values'?

 

1) Actually Expendable Abilities work a little differently (5ER pg.105). The damage would come out of the boosted points first (after the first few hits, damage done would be coming from the extra points each phase).

 

2) This, unfortunately, is very true. I was toying with adding a Trigger to it to have it restart when shut down.

 

3) Yah, not sure what I was thinking here as you don't have to roll to hit yourself. I'd probably replace this with a Trigeer as above.

 

4) I am that drunk sir!

 

5) Habit I guess. Though we allow crazy power builds, we strictly enforce our house rule AP limits. It creates alot of metagaming, but I am lucky to have players who roleplay as well as powergame.

[Robyn]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

I was always under the impression that Casual STR happened automatically whenever one was Grabbed' date=' Entangled, or trying to plow through an obstacle. Poring over 5th Edition, that doesn't seem to be the case[/quote']

 

I recall something similar in 5ER, but it wasn't explicitly stated under Casual STR or Entangle; page 387 (the 2nd paragraph, "Escaping From Grabs") notes that a character being grabbed "should be" allowed to make a single immediate breakout roll even if "he doesn't have a Zero Phase Action available", and attributes this to the rules on page 34 for Casual STR.

 

The rules on page 34 say "They can also use Casual STR to shrug off Entangles and Grabs without wasting an Action", then refer us to page 423.

 

But the rules on page 423 are only about "Breaking Out Of Entangles And Grabs" (which doesn't talk about Zero Phase Actions, only how much of an action is left after breaking out of an Entangle by damage) and "Casual Strength" (which repeats that characters may use their Casual STR as a Zero Phase Action to break free from Entangles), nothing clear there on whether the "free 0-Phase Action" applies to Entangles as well as Grabs.

 

Resorting to the 5th Edition Rules FAQ, an answer is found regarding this usage of the power:

 

Q: Is an Entangled character immediately at 0 DCV until he breaks free, regardless of the relative power of the Entangle and himself? For example, could a character attack a “brick” with a measly Entangle 2d6 and reduce him to DCV 0 until the brick’s Phase comes up and he breaks out with Casual STR?

A: An Entangled character’s DCV immediately drops to 0, so yes, technically speaking, the tactic you suggest is a possible one. As always, though, the GM should leaven his interpretation of the rules with some common sense and dramatic sense. For example, the GM might let the Entangled character try to shrug out of it immediately using Casual STR (just as characters who are Grabbed get to, per 5ER 387). However, this may grant an unfair advantage to high-STR characters, unless the GM grants a similar “casual attack” ability to characters with Energy Blast and the like.

Obviously, if PCs start to abuse the “quickie Entangle for 0 DCV” tactic, the GM should forbid it, weaken it, or start using it on them so much they learn the error of their ways.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

Toxin Hypo-Dart Gun: 2d6 Energy Blast, NND (Defense is Hardened rPD, +1) Continuous (+1) Uncontrolled (+1/2) Half Endurance (+1/4), OAF (-1), 37 Active Points, 18 Real points, costs 2 END per Phase. Feed it off an Endurance Reserve (Toxin Supply) with 100 END, also OAF, for another 5 points. Make the END Reserve REC only in a lab with extra time (1 minute); cost depends on how high you want the REC - this is effectively non-combat time, so it will rarely matter much. Uncontrolled is shut off with antitoxin, BTW.

 

Semi-wimpy on the surface; it's the Uncontrolled combined with Half Endurance that makes it nice. Hit somebody two Phases in a row, using 10 END (for 5 Phases of effect) each time. Over a six-Phase span, you're doing 20d6 NND (assuming, of course, they don't have the defense). Especially bad if you share the same SPD as your opponent, because they can't even get a Recovery while it's going off, except for post-12. And even if they go unconscious, the damage still continues until it runs out of END, but is now doubled, putting them quickly into GM-Discretion La-La-Land.

 

Yeah, it takes a while, but it gets there eventually.

[TaxiMan]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

Brainless: 2x Hardened on STUN

 

I have no idea what it does, but it sure looks cool. "You can't hurt me, your attack only affects regular STUN!"

[Robyn]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

Especially bad if you share the same SPD as your opponent' date=' because they can't even get a Recovery while it's going off, except for post-12.[/quote']

 

Question - what if they hold their Action until a Phase when the Energy Blast isn't happening?

[TaxiMan]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

Flaming Jet 2d6 RKA: Continious (+1), Increased Stun Multiplier +2 (+1/2) (75 Active Points); 1 Fuel Charge Lasting 1 Minute (-3/4), OAF (-1), Power (-1/4), Visible (-1/4), Delayed Phase (-1/4). Limited Range (25" or Less; -1/4). Total Cost: 25 points.

 

You hit once, it keeps hitting over and over again doing 1d6+1 on the Stun lottery giving you a minimum of 4 stun damage on a bad roll and 24 stun on your average roll.

 

Another nitpick (the Visible lim already being spotted) to avoid spreading bad rules interpretations:

 

The Increased Stun Multiplier +2 advantage means the Stun lottery will range from 6 on a bad roll and average 32.7 STUN.

 

Normally 1d6 RKA gets a stun multiplier of [1,1,2,3,4,5]. The +2 advantage makes that [3,3,4,5,6,7]. Since 2d6 has a minimum of 2 and the multiplier is a minimum of 3, 2*3 = 6 minimum STUN.

 

Don't forget you get an additional +1 if you roll a "1".

 

That's the easy part. The average is easy - sum up all possibilities & divide by the number of possibilities. But the median is not the same, since this isn't a nicely distributed set of numbers. The median is the middle STUN - half the time you roll better, half the time you roll worse. I cheated and wrote a quick program to roll every possibility & found:

 

28 STUN (or less) occurs 48% of the time

29 STUN is impossible (lots of numbers are)

30 STUN (or less) occurs 55% of the time

but...

30 STUN or more occurs 52% of the time

31 STUN is impossible

32 STUN or more occurs 45% of the time

 

so the median is 30 STUN.

 

For those big STUN rolls, the odds of getting...

35 STUN or more occurs 41% of the time

42 STUN or more occurs 28% of the time

50 STUN or more occurs 14% of the time

56 STUN or more occurs 10% of the time.

 

Of course, all that means this power is even more effective.

[Robyn]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

Normally 1d6 RKA gets a stun multiplier of [1' date='1,2,3,4,5']. The +2 advantage makes that [3,3,4,5,6,7].

 

Isn't this 1d6-1, with a minimum of 1? So, the spread would be 1d6+1 [2,3,4,5,6,7].

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

Question - what if they hold their Action until a Phase when the Energy Blast isn't happening?

 

No, at least according to FRED (I don't have 5ER, but I doubt it changed). It says explicitly, "A character cannot Hold his Action and then Recover, nor can he Abort to a Recovery."

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

Just noticed that my build broke one of the initial rules - Uncontrolled is a Stop-sign Advantage. Oops.

[Robyn]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

Just noticed that my build broke one of the initial rules

 

Not to worry, it's not like the rest of us have been following them (#3 comes to mind)

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

So instead of Uncontrolled and an Endurance Reserve, replace it with 2 clips of 4 Continuing Charges of 1 Minute duration. All legal and easier on the bookkeeping side.

[Astragaal]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

I think mine would be, the 15d6 RKA for 8 points (Balanced by large and multiple side effects on a failed ego roll) or my favorite is perhaps the somple 1d6 EB, Damage shield, mamy, many levels of auto fire I had on a character called Jester, it was a "Repulsion field". It esstentially generates 1000s of inches of knockback against anything with body attacking the chacter, it was dicovered durnibg my application to join the team, when a chracter threw a granite ashtray at me to determine my defences, the rebounding ashtray penetrated the base defences and many hexes of ground before dissapearing making many in the group quite unhappy. This all hinges around the KB mechanic for autofire in 4th ed (highest kb from attacks, +1 per additional attacks that hit, Damge shield causing autohits with all autofire, thus KB is equal to number of attacks at +1, -xd6 for targt state.) And last but not least the cheapness of applying ads to a 5 base cost power.

 

Its 100% kosher, and very, very powerful, doesnt stop damage, but is very dissuading to martial artists and the like

[TaxiMan]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

Isn't this 1d6-1' date=' with a minimum of 1? So, the spread would be 1d6+1 [2,3,4,5,6,7'].

 

I believe the multiplier is [1d6 - 1] +2. You figure 1d6-1 first, getting [1,1,2,3,4,5], then you add 2 which gives [3,3,4,5,6,7]. Steve L. recently reiterated that it works that way...

 

though it's a hassle & we ignore it in our game. How often does minimal STUN matter anyway?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

I believe the multiplier is [1d6 - 1] +2. You figure 1d6-1 first' date=' getting [1,1,2,3,4,5'], then you add 2 which gives [3,3,4,5,6,7]. Steve L. recently reiterated that it works that way...

 

though it's a hassle & we ignore it in our game. How often does minimal STUN matter anyway?

 

Well, this just went into House Rules territory.

[Robyn]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

I believe the multiplier is [1d6 - 1] +2. You figure 1d6-1 first' date=' getting [1,1,2,3,4,5'], then you add 2 which gives [3,3,4,5,6,7]. Steve L. recently reiterated that it works that way...

 

I didn't find a recent answer or one in the Rules FAQ, but I did find Steve Long quoting the Rules Faq

[Rebar]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

After reading through some of these, I have a few questions:

 

1] How do you determine an acceptable power construction from an unacceptable one? Some are clearly bending the intention of the rules, but most are merely highly effective combinations.

 

2] How do you explain to the player why they can't have it? "So, let me get this straight, you won't let me take the power because it's very effective. Do I have that right?"

[OzMike]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

After reading through some of these, I have a few questions:

 

1] How do you determine an acceptable power construction from an unacceptable one? Some are clearly bending the intention of the rules, but most are merely highly effective combinations.

 

2] How do you explain to the player why they can't have it? "So, let me get this straight, you won't let me take the power because it's very effective. Do I have that right?"

 

1) From my standpoint as a GM, most things are acceptable. However, if the players can do it, so can the villains. What the whining begin when you throw area effect autofie NND does body at them. Just remind them of this.

 

For the most part any power contruction that allows the PCs to exceed active APs/Rule of X or become better than another PC for whom that 'thing' is their schtick is unacceptable in my book. For example, martial artists who do more than the Brick's damage through use of low strength, DCs, gear, and maneuvers.

 

2) If it's about the maths and APs, or rule of X, I just show them. Tell them it's outside the parameters of the game. Warn them that the villains can and will use similar builds if they're setting a precedent.

 

Ultimately if you're the GM and if they're not going to trust your judgement and chuck a tantrum because you won't let them have a power that makes every other player ineffective or means that they have to fight Dr Destroyer every week for it to be a challenge, then you have to ask yourself the quiestion: do you really want to play with them as players?

[Psylint]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

After reading through some of these, I have a few questions:

 

1] How do you determine an acceptable power construction from an unacceptable one? Some are clearly bending the intention of the rules, but most are merely highly effective combinations.

 

2] How do you explain to the player why they can't have it? "So, let me get this straight, you won't let me take the power because it's very effective. Do I have that right?"

 

1. There's a difference between highly effective and abusive, like the difference between the 2" Teleportation, change vertical to prone, usuable as an attack damage shield, which knocks most folks down, and the 1d6 Autofire from Hell Knockback machine that does 1000d6 of damage because of the mechanics. The first is highly effective and cost efficient, but it isn't totally over powering (ranged characters laugh at it, as does anybody with growth, density increase, or just a slightly more massive character). The second for miniscule points does more damage than a Hydrogen Bomb.

 

2. Sometimes I let folks have a couple of munchkin powers, particularly if they fit well with the character conception. I really like the 2 pt, Insta-Snow Drift, cone autofire entangle. I think it's brillant and works well with the concept. The bad ones are those that are designed to get around the Damage Cap or the Active Point limit, like this one (Mind Control 2d6, Cumulative (max 96 points) +1 1/4, Autofire 20x (1 + 1 1/2), 0 End (+1) total active cost 58, average effect 70 (essentially twice that of 60pts of Mind Control built normally).

 

cheers

[薔薇語]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

This defiantly breaks the rules of this post.

 

1.) Missile deflect(choose the level you want) with Uncontrolled, Continuous. You have a power that is designed to automatically deflect attacks without you worrying about actively trying to stop the attacks. The special effect that I prefer to work with this is a teleportation field around you that(if you buy reflect as well) automatically teleports things where they are with all the same momentum but opposite direction.

 

2.) Also to go with this power I like to build a teleportation ring. This is a simple one inch teleportation with, No End, Continuous, Area of affect Radius(this will cause it to effect a diameter of 3 hexes, 7total) Hole in the middle, uncontrolled, persistent. What this is designed to do is take who ever that comes at you and teleport them exactly where they are but with opposite facing. This makes you all but untouchable. Now you can't use this build versus Ranged combat attacks because that emulates Missile Deflect/Reflect. But you can easily use it with the for mentioned power to make you all but "untouchable." If an attack makes it though it is because it just possessed so much speed/force that your shield couldn't act upon it.

 

 

La Rose

Sir Teleportation:thumbup:

[薔薇語]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

The bad ones are those that are designed to get around the Damage Cap or the Active Point limit' date=' like this one (Mind Control 2d6, Cumulative (max 96 points) +1 1/4, Autofire 20x (1 + 1 1/2), 0 End (+1) total active cost 58, average effect 70 (essentially twice that of 60pts of Mind Control built normally). [/quote']

 

I don't have my book by me at the moment but I think each attack applies against mental defenses. So essentially anyone with and average of 5-7 mental D will be unaffected. And even at just 4points you avoid most of the worry. But I still agree that is a horrible build and should never be allowed. That turns Joe normal/Brick with no MD, into a insta-slave.

 

 

La Rose

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

That turns Joe normal/Brick with no MD, into a insta-slave.

 

 

Which is why all my characters, if they have a year's worth of experience in being a superhero, have the following:

 

3 [i]Strong Will[/i] - Mental Defense: 3 points (5 points total, non-persistent -1/4, 
no mental awareness -1/4, Hardened +1/2.)

 

Just to avoid nibbly powers like this.

[Psylint]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

I don't have my book by me at the moment but I think each attack applies against mental defenses. So essentially anyone with and average of 5-7 mental D will be unaffected. And even at just 4points you avoid most of the worry. But I still agree that is a horrible build and should never be allowed. That turns Joe normal/Brick with no MD, into a insta-slave.

 

 

La Rose

 

1. Each attack would apply to defenses, so anyone with 12 Mental Defense would take 0 effect.

 

2. Actually Rose it doesn't make anyone "insta-slave" because you get a breakout roll prior to each phase. (Assuming Ego 10 and a Mind Control that just makes its required level of effect, the Breakout roll is 11- or 62.5%). Also the target's breakout roll increase by +1 for each Turn. Each multiple of 5 pts. above the required effect level causes a -1 to the target's breakout roll, so to get Joe Normal with no mental defense to shoot himself in the head (Ego +30) would require around 55pts of effect (55-40 = 15 or -3 to Breakout or 8- 25% chance of breakout). Of course on average it would take more than 15d6 to get such a score. In any event, the probability of anyone failing more than 3 breakout rolls even in the extreme example is less than 32%.

 

The better power is a transform "turns into obsessively obedient slave" 3d6 Major Transform, heals back normally, +1/2 at range, only humans -1/2 (Active Cost 68, real cost 45) it takes 2 or 3 hits to do the job, but then the target is a slave for months 2.5 months for Joe Normal (Rec 4 Body/month).

 

I generally like hero system, but the really give the shaft to mentalists.

[薔薇語]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

1. Each attack would apply to defenses, so anyone with 12 Mental Defense would take 0 effect.

 

2. Actually Rose it doesn't make anyone "insta-slave" because you get a breakout roll prior to each phase. (Assuming Ego 10 and a Mind Control that just makes its required level of effect, the Breakout roll is 11- or 62.5%). Also the target's breakout roll increase by +1 for each Turn. Each multiple of 5 pts. above the required effect level causes a -1 to the target's breakout roll, so to get Joe Normal with no mental defense to shoot himself in the head (Ego +30) would require around 55pts of effect (55-40 = 15 or -3 to Breakout or 8- 25% chance of breakout). Of course on average it would take more than 15d6 to get such a score. In any event, the probability of anyone failing more than 3 breakout rolls even in the extreme example is less than 32%.

 

The better power is a transform "turns into obsessively obedient slave" 3d6 Major Transform, heals back normally, +1/2 at range, only humans -1/2 (Active Cost 68, real cost 45) it takes 2 or 3 hits to do the job, but then the target is a slave for months 2.5 months for Joe Normal (Rec 4 Body/month).

 

I generally like hero system, but the really give the shaft to mentalists.

 

 

Assuming the enemy is a competent normal as described in the Hero System source book. Using only average roles the character(mentalist) he will roll an effect of 70. To make Joe Competent do things he is violently against doing (lets do something crazy, like kill his child) you need to roll, Ego plus 40 totaling 50(Ego=10 + Effect=30 +Psyc lim=10). You have beaten this roll by 20, making his break out roll equal 7, or 8 on his next phase, or 9 on the next turn. The chances that he will make either are not in his favor. And in just one turn if the child is near by, he can easily do that.

 

Even then you can take this power and make it a means of stopping a no MD enemy super so that they hold of on coming at you for one turn, giving you a chance to use the Transform to make them a loyal slave.

 

 

Also Transform is already ranged.

 

La Rose

[Psylint]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

1. Yes I was assuming a competent normal

2. An average roll of 70? That would take 20d6 of effect (100 pts) which puts you in the nigh' Cosmically powerful superhero realm, I was thinking more along the lines of a standard game, 12 DC cap 80 AP cap with wriggle room.

3. against a no MD enemy super, a mental paralysis will fair much better at less than half the cost.

4. Transform ranged? must be a change in FRED. Thanks for the tip, I can see all kinds of evil possibilities.

5. Then the Transform, once again comes out on top for effectiveness if not subtlety and incurs a range penalty, 6d6 Major Transform into slaves, heals back normally, only humans -1/2 (Active Cost 90, Real Cost 60).

 

Perhaps there could be a new limitation on Transform, heals back faster than normal (heals back every turn at the rate target heals body every month) -1/2?

 

Just a thought.

[薔薇語]

Re: The Munchkin Build Contest

 

There are limitations for decreased recovery time, don't know the disad adders though.

 

Also you could do the same trick with transform as you did with Mind control.

 

I did make a bad though on the effect roll. Assuming all shots hit and you roll average you will hit your cap of 96cumulative effect. I was thinking it was 1d6 of effect. Though the one things that really brings me down about this power is that you aren't likely to hit anywhere near that many times. Now something to think of is to buy a variant of the attack build like this:

 

"I Command thy: STOP!"

Compound power

Mind Control 2d6+1, Cumulative (52 points; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1 1/2) (54 Active Points)

plus

+10 CSL(at the 2pt level) for the attack.

 

This totals 74active points with a great chance to hit. and an average roll of 8(per attack) / 40(per total).

 

Now just add disads like: Standard effect: Only to make the character stop taking actions(-1) Incantations: shouting out stop (-1/4), Gestures: holding up hand(1/4). real cost 30pts. I know that is a lot but if you slap it into a multi-power of mental powers it is only 3-6points. Also you can add other disads as you feel, such as Focus, ect.

 

Great way to make the enemy brick: "think twice" about attacking you.