Question on Hydra-like monsters.

[kuoshu]

I've not yet run my first hero game, nor have I actually played one yet, so please bear with me.

 

I know that when you initiate an attack you've reached the end of your actions in a combat phase. I also know that these rules apply across the board. I do understand that I can modify anything I want, but one of the key draws for me is that the rules are so consistantly applied, and that when done so they seem to logically fit every situation that we've thrown at it in pre-test stage.

 

What I was wondering is how creatures that would/could logically have multiple attacks in the same phase, a hydra for instance that has 5 heads. Is there a mechanism for handling this?

 

I've searched the boards a number of times and couldn't find any.

 

It looks to me like I would treat each head as it's "own character" for a hydra. This is a very cool method for handling this, but from the Hero Sytem Beastiary it doesn't hold true for all like characters.

 

But what about something like a Chymera? The Beastiary doesn't seem to show this the same way. I would expect all three heads to be able to attack at once and independantly.

 

I can of course fix this based on my preference, but wanted to be sure I am not missing something which would allow for multiple independant attacks as written.

 

TIA for any insight/help

K.

[Savinien]

Re: Question on Hydra-like monsters.

 

Multi-power attack could be used, but I'll await deeper porbings until looking at the Bestiary and seeing how DoJ suggested doing it.

[kuoshu]

Re: Question on Hydra-like monsters.

 

Unfortunately I only own the paper version of the Beastiary and can not look it up.

 

But I do own both the PDF and the hardcover 5ER... So I will look up multipower attack.

 

My current understanding of Multipower attacks says that I have to use the "combined powers" attack on the same target (p.358 5ER right hand column)*. In this I could be mistaken.

 

But just in case I am not, I will clarify one point, I expect that the three heads would attack different targets based on their opportunity.

 

Thanks for the quick response and the suggestion by the way!

K.

 

*I am doing my best to begin to look like a Hero guru, page numbers and everything!

[Susano]

Re: Question on Hydra-like monsters.

 

Hydra-- where each head is a fully independent creature are best built using Duplication. You build the core creature as one single entity, and then build a scaled-down version for each head. This is used to build the Hydra in the HSB, and is used for several creatures in the upcoming AB Volumes 1 & 2.

 

As an example, I offer Dizzy, from Guilty Gear X, who doesn't have multiple heads, but does use the Duplication power to represent herself and her wings, which act as independent beings.

 

http://surbrook.devermore.net/ggx/dizzy.html

[Zed-F]

Re: Question on Hydra-like monsters.

 

In fact one of the examples for the duplication power in FREd is exactly for a Hydra.

[Outsider]

Re: Question on Hydra-like monsters.

 

Another option would be to give the hydra a higher speed, then limit the extra speed such that 1) it cant be used for movement and 2) each individual head is a 'focus' for some of the speed (meaning if it is disabled, another head cant act on that phase) I would also be count a hydra's heads as 'arms' rather than 'heads' as far as body & stun multiples.

 

So.. an 8 headed hydra might be SPD 10, with 2 of the speed unlimited as to what it can be used for (these phases may be used by -any- of the heads also) and 8 of the speed limited to "Not for movement, only usable by head #X"

 

Given that, even for a limb that takes 1/2 rolled BOD, the main creature would reach -1x BODY and die once only 4 of its 8 heads were disabled, I'd also add some BOD limited to countering damage to the heads. IE if the creature is 20 body (Base) I'd add 20 more "Only to offset death caused by loss of heads" so the creature would hit -1x BODY when the last head got disabled.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Question on Hydra-like monsters.

 

In addition to Duplication, Multiple-Power Attacks, or a higher SPD (all of which work particularly well for creatures whose different heads have different capabilities), here are a couple more options that are particularly well suited to creatures where the heads have the same capabilities...

 

Autofire. Buy the heads' attacks with Autofire, with the number of "shots" equalling the number of heads. The fact that it's five heads attacking once, rather than a single head attacking five times, is just SFX. Combat Levels can be used to offset OCV penalties if desired.

 

Sweep (for heads with HTH attacks) or Rapid Fire (for heads with Ranged attacks). Penalty Skill Levels can be bought to offset the OCV penalties, with the number of PSLs based on the number of heads. Add Extra Limbs and/or Stretching as desired. (Of course, since this option would greatly reduce the creature's DCV as well, it's more appropriate for large creatures (like hydras) who probably don't have much in the way of DCV anyway.

[Savinien]

Re: Question on Hydra-like monsters.

 

I was going to mention SWEEP in my next installment.

 

Good to see the REAL gurus are here and offering their wealth of wisdom and experience.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Question on Hydra-like monsters.

 

I think the major reason for using Duplication in some cases is that it allows the heads to truly be independant characters. That means if one is Stunned the others can still act; if one is killed the others still live; they can Coordinate their attacks, which a single character can never do with him-/herself. That kind of thing.

[Susano]

Re: Question on Hydra-like monsters.

 

In addition to Duplication, Multiple-Power Attacks, or a higher SPD (all of which work particularly well for creatures whose different heads have different capabilities), here are a couple more options that are particularly well suited to creatures where the heads have the same capabilities...

 

Autofire. Buy the heads' attacks with Autofire, with the number of "shots" equalling the number of heads. The fact that it's five heads attacking once, rather than a single head attacking five times, is just SFX. Combat Levels can be used to offset OCV penalties if desired.

 

Sweep (for heads with HTH attacks) or Rapid Fire (for heads with Ranged attacks). Penalty Skill Levels can be bought to offset the OCV penalties, with the number of PSLs based on the number of heads. Add Extra Limbs and/or Stretching as desired. (Of course, since this option would greatly reduce the creature's DCV as well, it's more appropriate for large creatures (like hydras) who probably don't have much in the way of DCV anyway.

 

These options (IMO) work best for creatures who have a lot of mouths and/or heads grouped tightly together. A hydra, or Scylla, or the like, with multiple heads, each on a long neck, works best using Duplication, mainly because it allows each head to be its own character.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Question on Hydra-like monsters.

 

These options (IMO) work best for creatures who have a lot of mouths and/or heads grouped tightly together. A hydra' date=' or Scylla, or the like, with multiple heads, each on a long neck, works best using Duplication, mainly because it allows each head to be its own character.[/quote']Overall, I agree that Duplication is the most useful approach. Just tossin' out additional options.

[Fitz]

Re: Question on Hydra-like monsters.

 

In my experience, limited Duplication works better for most multi-headed critters (like hydra) than any of the other mechanics mentioned; like Susano I find that it better represents the semi-independent nature of them.

 

I'd use Autofire in a situation where a creature has multiple attacks but single intelligence, when the attacks are normally used against a single opponent, like a giant squid's tentacles.

[Susano]

Re: Question on Hydra-like monsters.

 

Overall' date=' I agree that Duplication is the most useful approach. Just tossin' out additional options. [/quote']

 

And the AB I & II has various multi-headed creatures using various methods to define have multiple heads (not just Duplication).

[kuoshu]

Re: Question on Hydra-like monsters.

 

Hmm... Posting from work makes my words all a-jumble. I obviously need to clarify.

 

I do understand that the Hydra uses duplication to create multiple "lesser" copies of its head. These lesser heads can then be run on their own as "extra characters" which allows for a single hydra to attack multiple times on its phase, each head being treated as independent characters.

 

I also see that there is a secondary duplication feat that each head has which allows it to regrow 2 copies if severed.

 

Now, I REALLY like this, I think it is very cool and even gives the feel that the heads can have their own thoughts. You can print a character sheet for each head if you want (this is how things are represented in the HD2 bestiary pack).

 

This does not seem to be consistent amongst multi headed creatures though.

 

Example the Chimera.

Three heads, one character with multiple powers.

 

The Lion head bite is represented as a power.

The Dragon Head bite is represented as a power.

 

In this case, using the rules as they are, I can't have the Lion head bite at the person attacking from the front in the same round as the dragon head bites at the person attacking from the left.

 

Multi-power rules say they can both attack the same person, and combat rules say that once that attack is made the creatures turn is over.

 

Is there something that I am missing for this type of creature?

 

 

What if I create an Ettin which each head controls a hand. Each hand has a weapon. How would it attack two different people?

 

I can see creating each head as a separate character like the hydra, but is there something in the current rules that I have missed which would allow for (or is designed specifically for) this type of machination to exist elegantly?

 

Yours respectfully,

Kuoshu

 

Oh, and before I forget... I thank you all for your help in this. The more I read and discover about the system the more impressed I am. Now I am just trying to put it together so that I can run a game.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Question on Hydra-like monsters.

 

Example the Chimera.

Three heads, one character with multiple powers.

 

The Lion head bite is represented as a power.

The Dragon Head bite is represented as a power.

 

In this case, using the rules as they are, I can't have the Lion head bite at the person attacking from the front in the same round as the dragon head bites at the person attacking from the left.

Sweep. Even if you don't normally allow it in your campaign, there is a good justification for it in the case of multi-headed creatures IMO. A chimera's heads aren't quite as independent as a hydra's; if you damage one, you damage the whole creature, which might result in its being Stunned or completely killed.

 

Multi-power rules say they can both attack the same person, and combat rules say that once that attack is made the creatures turn is over.

MPAs work if the heads are attacking the same target. Or, for consistency you might handle this with Sweep as well. Consider giving the creature extra CSLs with Sweep so it doesn't suffer penalties until all the heads have attacked (you can Limit them with -0s for only applying if all heads are attacking, etc.).

 

Note that you might even allow abnormal Sweep/Rapid Fire situations in the case of a chimera. I believe it has a breath weapon, so you might allow a Ranged attack while the other heads are biting or whatever, even though a normal character can't do this (actually I can't remember; the breath weapon might be a No Range Area of Effect, in which case it is up to the GM whether to consider it a HTH or Ranged attack and it might even be technically legal). Not sure how I might handle this, but I'm sure I'll have it come up eventually.

 

What if I create an Ettin which each head controls a hand. Each hand has a weapon. How would it attack two different people?

 

I can see creating each head as a separate character like the hydra, but is there something in the current rules that I have missed which would allow for (or is designed specifically for) this type of machination to exist elegantly?

I think an ettin is probably better represented along the same lines as a chimera rather than a hydra, but that is totally up to you. Again Sweep (possibly complimented by CSLs) and/or MPAs are a good option if you choose not to go the Duplication route.

 

As others have said, extra Speed is also a good option. If you want to get detailed you could even limit it or Running (and Swimming, Leaping, etc.) so the creature's movement doesn't get insane. If you felt like it you could probably also limit the Speed so both, "heads," have to act on the same Segment (I'd call it a -0 since you normally can't take multiple Phases per Segment, but it will require mandatory Delayed Phases).