The Role Models

[OddHat]

Re: The Role Models

 

What about the first cross-dressing superhero then?

 

Abigail "Ma" Hunkel put on the super-hero long johns (literally) to fight crime as the Red Tornado in 1940. Even showed up at the very first meeting of the Justice Society of America. But the other characters didn't seem to realize that the Red Tornado was a woman, and usually addressed her as "Mister." Not the femme fatale our Abbie.

 

Always nice to see the butch girls getting some respect.

 

On a more game oriented note, Ma Hunkel is actually not a bad addition to a list of role models. The old man / old woman hero can be played seriously, for pathos, and for laughs, sometimes in the same story.

[Marketeer]

Re: The Role Models

 

Obviously I'm not asking the right question.

 

• Superman
  
• Batman
  
• Green Lantern
  
• Flash
  
• Wonder Woman
  
• Captain America
  
• Iron Man
  
• Spider-Man
  
• Wolverine
  

Each of these brings something unique to the party. I don't think you canbe said to be familiar withthe genre without a passing familiarity with these characters.

 

Who else belongs on the list?

 

 

This is probably going to make me very unpopular in a few moments...

 

...I'm not entirely convinced that Captain America is archetypical at a comparable level to (say) Spider-Man, Superman, or Batman is. (I also would substitute in The Hulk for Wolverine, but that's a separate argument)

 

Captain America could stand for the "highly trained and motivated" archetype, but I honestly feel Batman's portrayal as being obsessive about it makes him fit that niche better.

 

Likewise, Captain America's origin is unique only in the sense that he actively went looking for super-powers, whereas most of the others received them as quirks of birth (Superman) or fate (Spider-Man). The aspect of Captain America "looking for powers" has not really been played up, so I don't think that sets him aside.

 

I would definitely grant that Captain America could have brought the aspect of "being a soldier" or "being a government agent" to the list of archetypes, but I again, I don't think that aspect is played up enough in the body of comics featuring him to really justify including him on those grounds.

 

Likewise, he could have been "a man out of his time", but it's another largely lost opportunity due to non-use.

 

 

 

Captain America is a very popular, well-known character, but I don't think he's a quintessential one--the other characters fill his niches. Merely being a "patriot" isn't foreign to Superman, for example--who in the 80s fought for Truth, Justice, and the American way.

[Marketeer]

Re: The Role Models

 

Separate point from above:

 

Although he's far from being a role model, I do think The Punisher merits inclusion on the list simply for the breadth of his influence--he was one of the most significant of the "you're not supposed to like this guy" heroes.

[Hermit]

Re: The Role Models

 

This is probably going to make me very unpopular in a few moments...

I hope not. My avatar aside, Opinions differ and all.

 

 

Likewise, Captain America's origin is unique only in the sense that he actively went looking for super-powers, whereas most of the others received them as quirks of birth (Superman) or fate (Spider-Man). The aspect of Captain America "looking for powers" has not really been played up, so I don't think that sets him aside.

See, I disagree with that. His patriotism, his reason to seek powers is played up to the point where it is often taken for granted, but it is there. He stepped forward and volunteered. Again and again, the importance of his willingness and dedication being behind his becoming Captain America has been stressed, as opposed to other supersoldiers who had things done TO them, whether they wanted it or not.

 

Likewise, he could have been "a man out of his time", but it's another largely lost opportunity due to non-use.

I guess we read different things into the comic books because I thought that was the whole point of Stan bringing him back in Avengers #4. Stan used an old Timely character who would have otherwised seem two dimensional, but by making him "a man out of his time", brought new aspects to the character that previously hadn't existed. Even in the current run of Captain America, Steve's flash backs to his past remain important, and the isolation he sometimes feels in the modern world is touched on.

 

Captain America is a very popular, well-known character, but I don't think he's a quintessential one--the other characters fill his niches.

 

In the world of accidents, or those born with the powers, I still think Steve Rogers, the stringy nothing ready to risk his life for a chance to become strong enough to serve his nation stands out as pretty unique.

[Enforcer84]

Re: The Role Models

 

This is probably going to make me very unpopular in a few moments...

 

...I'm not entirely convinced that Captain America is archetypical at a comparable level to (say) Spider-Man, Superman, or Batman is. (I also would substitute in The Hulk for Wolverine, but that's a separate argument)

 

Captain America could stand for the "highly trained and motivated" archetype, but I honestly feel Batman's portrayal as being obsessive about it makes him fit that niche better.

 

Likewise, Captain America's origin is unique only in the sense that he actively went looking for super-powers, whereas most of the others received them as quirks of birth (Superman) or fate (Spider-Man). The aspect of Captain America "looking for powers" has not really been played up, so I don't think that sets him aside.

 

I would definitely grant that Captain America could have brought the aspect of "being a soldier" or "being a government agent" to the list of archetypes, but I again, I don't think that aspect is played up enough in the body of comics featuring him to really justify including him on those grounds.

 

Likewise, he could have been "a man out of his time", but it's another largely lost opportunity due to non-use.

 

 

 

Captain America is a very popular, well-known character, but I don't think he's a quintessential one--the other characters fill his niches. Merely being a "patriot" isn't foreign to Superman, for example--who in the 80s fought for Truth, Justice, and the American way.

 

Maybe, but Cap is (to me) the epitome of the Flag Suit. He is the idealist where Batman is the obsessive. Sorry, Bat's doesn't ring Idealism to me.

[GoldenAge]

Re: The Role Models

 

Captain America is great (one of my favorites) but he's really just a copy of The Shield who had his origin in Archie Comic's almost a year and a half earlier than Cap.

 

Of course Captain America has transcended his predecessor by leaps and bounds, eventually becoming a big enough icon to eclipse all other patriotic heroes, past and present... But, honestly, he's not THE patriot archetype (unless it's true that Captain Marvel is the true "super man" icon because he was cooler and sold more comics than that other guy).

 

http://www.toonopedia.com/shield1.htm

[Marketeer]

Re: The Role Models

 

Maybe' date=' but Cap is (to me) the epitome of the Flag Suit. He is the idealist where Batman is the obsessive. Sorry, Bat's doesn't ring Idealism to me.[/quote']

 

Granted, but Superman does.

 

In terms of idealism--I think Superman can fill that niche.

 

In terms of obsessive training/dedication--Batman.

 

I do think Cap is somewhat unique in terms of being someone who sought his powers rather than just randomly getting them, with a mind towards serving, but I'm not entirely convinced that he is as uniquely situated as his peers on the list.

 

Opinions differ though.

 

[GoldenAge]

Re: The Role Models

 

I do think Cap is somewhat unique in terms of being someone who sought his powers rather than just randomly getting them' date=' with a mind towards serving...[/quote']

 

Hmm, sorry to beat a dead horse but:

 

Joe Higgins was the son of scientist Tom Higgins, whose research had included a quest for a chemical to give super powers to ordinary humans. With success within his grasp, the elder Higgins was killed by foreign agents. The son used the process on himself, then made a skin-tight outfit based on the American flag. As The Shield, he then offered his services to FBI director J. Edgar Hoover — thus acquiring his nickname, "G-Man Extraordinary".

[OddHat]

Re: The Role Models

 

Hmm, sorry to beat a dead horse but:

 

Joe Higgins was the son of scientist Tom Higgins, whose research had included a quest for a chemical to give super powers to ordinary humans. With success within his grasp, the elder Higgins was killed by foreign agents. The son used the process on himself, then made a skin-tight outfit based on the American flag. As The Shield, he then offered his services to FBI director J. Edgar Hoover — thus acquiring his nickname, "G-Man Extraordinary".

 

You can also go back to HG Wells: Hawley Griffin in the "Invisible Man" and Professor Gibberne in "The New Accelerator" both developed formulas that grant superpowers. I'm sure I'm missing plenty.

 

The idea had been floating around for a while.

[GoldenAge]

Re: The Role Models

 

You can also go back to HG Wells: Hawley Griffin in the "Invisible Man" and Professor Gibberne in "The New Accelerator" both developed formulas that grant superpowers. I'm sure I'm missing plenty.

 

The idea had been floating around for a while.

 

Too true. I'm a huge fan of most Pulp. Doc Savage is still #1 in my book!

[Hermit]

Re: The Role Models

 

Oh, no denying the Shield was first (Though Steve Rogers came to the government as a scrawny geek instead of as a fully formed hero who used a loved one's formula, minor diff, but it should be mentioned), but Captain America ended up beating the guy at his own game so to speak and thus became the rolemodel for it. Most folks don't even know who the heck the Shield is.

 

Which is a shame, because I actually enjoyed the brief Impact comics renewal in the 90s.

[casualplayer]

Re: The Role Models

 

To address the root post, we are working with a player who is interested but not comic-competent. We need archetypes that resonate with Joe Q. Public, not Johnny Comicshop.

 

Can't go wrong starting with the Bible. Does your player want to play David, the master of precision power, or Goliath, the impressive brute? Would they be interested in playing Samson, the pillar of strength with a emmasculating flaw? Moses, the scion of royalty that wielded great mystical power and an impressive staff? There's Nimrod the Hunter or Nebuchadnezzar, Ruth and Rebecca, many an inspiration for superheroes to be found.

 

The prospective player being likely American a gun-toting madman...errrr, hero might be appealling. Do they want to be Buffalo Bill or Marshall Dillon? Dirty Harry or the Outlaw Josey Wales? Kevin Costner's Wyatt Earp or Kurt Russell's? Murdoch or Riggs? The Lone Ranger or Maverick?

 

Someone mentioned Greek mythology before. Heracles and Theseus had a friendship very similar to our modern Superman and Batman. Prometheus defied the other Olympians to bring fire to Man. Orpheus could play his lyre to make the dead weep. And then there are the other mythologies to tap.

 

No one lives in a complete vacuum, so most are going to know of the Big Three: Superman, Batman and Spider-Man. I would suggest these others.

 

-Robin Hood

-Lancelot

-David

-Samson

-Br'er Rabbit or Bugs Bunny

-Thomas Edison

-Solomon

-Benjamin Franklin

-Davy Crockett

-Hiawatha

-Conan

-Tarzan

-Luke Skywalker

-Sherlock Holmes

-Achilles

 

I would love to add ones like Pecos Bill or The Spirit but I don't think they have the breadth of resonance we are looking for. The names on this list are evocative and inspiring, and that's what I believe McCoy had in mind.

[Rage]

Re: The Role Models

 

You know, Samson probably had a head full of dreadlocks. Just saying that that ain't effiminant. Just look at Tana Umanga or Bob marley

[casualplayer]

Re: The Role Models

 

You know' date=' Samson probably had a head full of dreadlocks. Just saying that that ain't effiminant. Just look at Tana Umanga or Bob marley[/quote']

 

It has been speculated that losing his strength because his "hair" was cut off was not strictly accurate. Or it may have been the hair down there. Either way Delilah did a number on him.

 

Oh, yeah, two more names.

 

-D'Artagnan

-Han Solo

[Beetle]

Re: The Role Models

 

There is one thing that Cap embodies more than any other hero I can think of - he's Mr. Team Leader. With any gathering of heroes that includes Cap, there's never any question who is going to be in charge. He has the ability to inspire confidence and loyalty among others who have more power than he does. As Ben Urich once said, "A soldier with a voice like that could command a god ... and does."

[Rage]

Re: The Role Models

 

It has been speculated that losing his strength because his "hair" was cut off was not strictly accurate. Or it may have been the hair down there. Either way Delilah did a number on him.

 

Oh, yeah, two more names.

 

-D'Artagnan

-Han Solo

either way, totally hardcore. (especially down there)

[input.jack]

Re: The Role Models

 

The girlfriend of one of my roomates began gaming with us, and she had never really been into comics. She didnt have a solid handle on characters other than Superman, Batman (Tim Burton movie version), and Spider-man, mostly because shed seen those movies.

 

We sat her down and showed her the WB Animated Series for Superman, Batman, and Justice League/JLU. We handed her some Avengers to read.

 

We showed her Batman Begins (the only live-action movie ever made about The Batman).

 

She is now ONE OF US! *Muahahahahahaha!*

[st barbara]

Re: The Role Models

 

The girlfriend of one of my roomates began gaming with us, and she had never really been into comics. She didnt have a solid handle on characters other than Superman, Batman (Tim Burton movie version), and Spider-man, mostly because shed seen those movies.

 

We sat her down and showed her the WB Animated Series for Superman, Batman, and Justice League/JLU. We handed her some Avengers to read.

 

We showed her Batman Begins (the only live-action movie ever made about The Batman).

 

She is now ONE OF US! *Muahahahahahaha!*

So what sort of character has she created ?