Mental Powers Based on DEX

[Dust Raven]

While I'm not one to promote the creation of a new rule, prefering to assume that the given rules and mechanics are sufficient for anything us players can come up with, one of my friend asked a rather simple question of me yesterday that got me to thinking.

 

Basically, it's the rather simple event of being in a bar room brawl and having some thug punch you, you ducking and having him hit the lout standing behind you instead. Basically, there are no rules of any kind for this event, accidental or planned. The best we have is a GM fiat. At the moment, that isn't good enough for me, as I would like to have a character who's combat technique involves setting fighting a crowd of people in such as way that his opponents spend more time hitting each other than he does.

 

So how to resolve this? Well, I figure the most basic element here is that the character is doing nothing more than forcing target X into striking target Y, instead of himself. Missile Deflection works fine for this SFX if target X is using a ranged attack that isn't an Entangle or AE... but what about those HTH attacks (not to mention Entangles and AE attacks)? The only other Power/Rule I can find that makes a target do something he doesn't want to do is Mind Control. But he isn't "mind controling" anything, just moving in such a way that the target thinks he's doing one thing but is really doing another. That makes me think of Mental Illusions (could be Images, but everyone else can plainly see what's really going on).

 

Okay, so he's Mind Controlling target X (or Mental Ilusioning him) into striking target Y. Only willpower really has nothing to do with it. Neither does health. It's all in the reflexes. So, how about basing the Mental Power on DEX instead of EGO. An attack roll is made using the attacker's OCV verses the target's DCV as a normal attack, the dice are rolled and the total is compared to the target's DEX (instead of EGO or CON). If the target number is reached, the target performs the action desired by the attacker.

 

Sounds simple enough, but I'm having trouble nailing down the particulars. Things like the value of the Modifier, whether it is an Advantge or a Limitation or just a + or - 0, how the levels of effect would be modified if at all, what other applications of this Modifier could be (using Telepathy based on DEX to know what a target's combat technique or strategy is, or to learn of other Powers/Maneuvers the target knows is one possibility), and other little details.

 

So, I'm feeling the irresistable urge to nail this optional rule type thingy down into something easily adjucatable and playable or beat it into a head of useless redundant pulp because there is some other, existing rule I'm overlooking. In either case, I'd like some help.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

Well...what about treating it instead as a specialized kind of Martial Throw? Just use the SFX that instead of the target falling, his attack kinetic energy gets directed elsewhere? Throwing one enemy into another is already covered (5Er, pg. 387) so using this as the SFX to damage another opponent wouldn't seem to be a problem to me...and using the Martial Throw manuever means the DEX of both parties is already taken into account when it's carried out.

 

If you want to use it to 'redirect' a punch (both avoiding damage yourself and passing the damage along to an opponet) then buy yourself a good DEX & SPD and use Held Actions to 'Martial Throw' an opponent that's about to take a shot at you so he 'takes a shot' (does damage) to another foe instead.

 

 

Just an off-the-top-of-my-head alternative possibility...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

I was thinking along the lines Dr A was, but then I thought that this sort of thing, whilst maybe OK as a superpower, probably should not be encouraged as any kind of standard manoeuvre in most games: this is probably the sort of thing that should be a function of a luck roll or a reward from intresting role playing/descriptive play.

 

If you did want a manouvre, then what you ideally want is to use your opponent's strength, so a throw or riposte type manouvre doesn't really work (although it is an excellent stopgap substitute).

 

Try something like this:

 

Redirect:

 

OCV -2, DCV -2, mechanically works like a block, although you can't abort to it as it takes some set-up, but, if successful, allows you to redirect the attack at any adjacent target (except the attacker). Use the same initial attack roll to seee if you hit the new target DO NOT re-roll. Damage, if successful, is whatever the original attack would have delivered. Although you can re-direct an attack at, for example, a wall, the attacker never takes damage no matter what the hit, unless simple contact is sufficient to trigger the damage.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

....or, and I've long thought this should be allowable, you can define missile deflection as working against EITHER ranged or melee attack, or, for a +10 adder, both - then you can just buy reflection.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

....or' date=' and I've long thought this should be allowable, you can define missile deflection as working against EITHER ranged or melee attack, or, for a +10 adder, both - then you can just buy reflection.[/quote']

 

I like that best. There doesn't seem to be any mechanical or balance reason why missile deflection is ok versus ranged but not ok versus melee.

 

-Nate

[casualplayer]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

Could you trick someone into punching the wall behind you and hurting themselves? I would call it an 1 hex HA Selective Persistent 0 END possibly damage restricted by incoming attack, Requires Skill Roll (successful Martial Block/Block.) Someone swipes at you and you nimbly redirect their attack to the poor schmoe behind you, or even lure people into striking at you and punching the girder behind you (or like Mr. Miyagi in the Karate Kid, the side window of a car.)

 

This could be crazy useful and should cost many points, but anyone who has this probably has a Martial Arts EC and will manage.

 

Or just buy Luck.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

There was a thread a month or so ago on this ... it was decided that a Mental Power based on DEX was between +0 and +1/2 Advantage based on the campaign at hand, though it was with a caveat of using the mentalists EOCV vs defenders DCV.

 

If you want to use CV for both Based On CON does that, I would say a -1/2 Based On CV would do the trick nicely.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

Another thought...use Linked Invisibility & Images. You put image where you want the person attacking you to strike...he strikes at the image ('cause he can't see you) and the image of you 'ducks' -- he doesn't hit it, as there's nothing there to hit -- so of course he's going to hit whatever or whoever was 'behind' the image. It's up to you to set things up right so his punch will strike the object or person you want struck. (Perhaps tack on RSR or Requires a Perception Check?)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

Thanks for the responses guys!

 

The Martial Throw (at least the redirection option) is a good idea Dr. A. The SFX of such a maneuver need not involve actually touching the target. Unfortunately, it won't account for stepping out of the way of gunfire so that the guy behind you get's shot.

 

Missile Deflection would be perfect if it could work with HTH attacks.

 

I have a completely different problem with Missile Deflection though. Block is free, and you pay for Missile Deflection. With Missile Deflection, you can buy an Adder that will reflect an attack back upon the attacker, or for a larget Adder reflect the attack at a target of your choice. For Block, there is no such Adder. Why?

 

If there was, my problem would be solved, wouldn't it? Is there a problem with something like that? How could it be abused? Could it be abused (anymore than Missile Reflection could be that is)?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

Another thought...use Linked Invisibility & Images. You put image where you want the person attacking you to strike...he strikes at the image ('cause he can't see you) and the image of you 'ducks' -- he doesn't hit it' date=' as there's nothing there to hit -- so of course he's going to hit whatever or whoever was 'behind' the image. It's up to [i']you[/i] to set things up right so his punch will strike the object or person you want struck. (Perhaps tack on RSR or Requires a Perception Check?)

 

That's still a GM fiat for hitting something other than what was aimed at though. Technically, you could just say that if the attacker missed, he has a chance of hitting something behind what he was aiming at, Images or not. There just aren't any rules for it.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

That's still a GM fiat for hitting something other than what was aimed at though. Technically' date=' you could just say that if the attacker missed, he has a chance of hitting something behind what he was aiming at, Images or not. There just aren't any rules for it.[/quote']

Mmm. True.

 

You know, it's really too bad you can't buy CSLs, Usable As an Attack, in such a way as not only do you control when/how the target gets to 'use' them, but would let you pick his target as well...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

Mmm. True.

 

You know, it's really too bad you can't buy CSLs, Usable As an Attack, in such a way as not only do you control when/how the target gets to 'use' them, but would let you pick his target as well...

Mind Control: Attack Him, but look like you're attacking me. Set Effect.

plus

CSLs; UBO.

 

I'm not sure how I'd feel about a game with CSLs described exactly as you've put it ... that's an incredibely cheap price for taking over someone's attack.

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

There was a thread a month or so ago on this ... it was decided that a Mental Power based on DEX was between +0 and +1/2 Advantage based on the campaign at hand, though it was with a caveat of using the mentalists EOCV vs defenders DCV.

 

If you want to use CV for both Based On CON does that, I would say a -1/2 Based On CV would do the trick nicely.

I'm going to have to look that thread up-

I would have thhought it to be a -1 (the inverse of based on EGO) and using the attackers Dex based OCV, and suffering normal range penalties, etc. (like an Energy Blast)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

EOCV vs DCV thread.

 

The reason it was going towards an Advantage is that I was trying to apply EOCV to an Energy Blast and still have it dodged by DCV. Essentially choosing my Offensive CV - many argued that it ended up a 0 Point Advantage, the GM and I decided on a +1/2 for several reasons, I'd have to go look up our conversation to answer them.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

The reason it was going towards an Advantage is that I was trying to apply EOCV to an Energy Blast and still have it dodged by DCV. Essentially choosing my Offensive CV - many argued that it ended up a 0 Point Advantage' date=' the GM and I decided on a +1/2 for several reasons, I'd have to go look up our conversation to answer them.[/quote']

 

How much did the +1/2 advantage cost, and how many 2 point OCV levels with that power could you have purchased for the same price? Are your DEX and EGO really that far apart?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

How much did the +1/2 advantage cost' date=' and how many 2 point OCV levels with that power could you have purchased for the same price? Are your DEX and EGO really that far apart?[/quote']

it was 30 EGO vs 13 DEX. The power was in a MP so the point cost factored in very little. It would have been the difference between a 6D6 and 8D6 EB, not a biggie. Being inside a Multipower Pool I would have been able to purchase 1 CSL at best, and wanted to avoid later issues of matching that total CV vs EOCV should I increase either my DEX or EGO in play later on.

 

And I'm sorry - it ended up at +1/4, not 1/2.

 

The end result was that since I was choosing which OCV I was using (the better of the two by far) it was worth some advantage - thus the lowest possible you can give. The power was intended as a Mind Blast that could do physical damage - i.e. bashing a door open or other physical objects, since Ego Attack can't target things without minds.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

Mind Control: Attack Him, but look like you're attacking me. Set Effect.

plus

CSLs; UBO.

 

I'm not sure how I'd feel about a game with CSLs described exactly as you've put it ... that's an incredibely cheap price for taking over someone's attack.

I meant "too bad" in the context of the desired effect, because that would (IMO) be a simpler way to do it rather than attempting Mind Control, etc. I wasn't saying that I, as a GM, would allow CSLs to be used in that fashion.

 

Some of you may note that I've avoided using Mind Control in my suggetions on how to build this. I'm not just being contrary -- there is actually a reason behind it.

 

What's being looked for is a way to pull off the "I manuever, set it up -- then duck or dodge -- so my attacker hits someone or something else."

 

The problem with using any flavor of Mind Control is that someone with Mental Defense would most likely be immune to what sounds like a purely physical and tactical 'manuever until he's in just the right spot' sort of thing. And that makes no sense to me whatsoever.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

On the other hand it could be argued that someone with Mental DEF and a high enough INT wouldn't fall for such a maneuver either. But then we're into using INT instead of EGO as well...

 

I see why you're avoiding Mind Control. But in part this is a psychological maneuver of "tricking" someone into doing something, and in part this is being able to set up situations where these things "just happen."

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

I've never considered MD to work against "psychological tricks" or anything like that, myself...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

I've never considered MD to work against "psychological tricks" or anything like that' date=' myself...[/quote']

Perhaps it would require NND or AVLD then, I'm not saying Mind Control is the best fit or even the only one. But a correct build of it may achieve the effect nicely.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

For a long time I've felt that Missile Reflection should be considered a powered adder for Block, tho I'd worry that just allowing the Reflection Adders to a block could be a bit too cheap for the utility. In the same boat, I also think there should be some method (probably an advantage) that makes Deflection (and possibly Reflection against the origin of the attack) an automatic action rather than a half phase. A resetting trigger could do it (as could Constant or Damage Sheild with a few handwaves) but feels kinda clunky.

 

This is one of those few holes in the system that hasn't really been properly filled in yet.

[Mike W]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

I think the easiest way to resolve this is to have the character "dodge" out of the way. If the characer dodges and was standing right in front of someone else, check to see if the attack roll would hit whoever was standing behind him, applying whatever situational modifiers seem appropriate.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

it was 30 EGO vs 13 DEX. The power was in a MP so the point cost factored in very little.

 

That is a pretty extreme difference (6 2 point levels = 12 points).

 

It would have been the difference between a 6D6 and 8D6 EB, not a biggie. Being inside a Multipower Pool I would have been able to purchase 1 CSL at best, and wanted to avoid later issues of matching that total CV vs EOCV should I increase either my DEX or EGO in play later on.

 

And I'm sorry - it ended up at +1/4, not 1/2.

 

6d6 vs 8s6 = 10 points (base) = 5 2 point CSL's - probably enough in most cases but falling just short in this one. I'm ignoring the multipower issue since I think the same construct should be usable inside or outside frameworks.

 

I do agree that the appropriate pricing is either +0 or +1/4 (an adder culd work, but then the adder should just equal the number of CSL's required to achieve the desired OCV).

 

The end result was that since I was choosing which OCV I was using (the better of the two by far) it was worth some advantage - thus the lowest possible you can give. The power was intended as a Mind Blast that could do physical damage - i.e. bashing a door open or other physical objects' date=' since Ego Attack can't target things without minds.[/quote']

 

Certainly it's advantageous. Should there be an advantage charged? Good question. If you had a bunch of physical powers, and no mental ones, would you have paid all those points for Ego? There's some comment in the rules somewhere about classifying a power as a "mental power" based on SFX. A mental blast which does physical damage sounds like a good reason to classify the EB as a mental power. If we simply established that mental powers are targeted using EOCV, the comments on changing a power's classification for free becomes the operator that justifies a free shift to EOCV.

 

Is there a drawback? I would say yes, since your EB is now a "mental power", and affected by Adjustment powers that affect only Mental powers (eg. "Suppress all mental powers"). If it's not a mental power, you should still have the EB, even if such a Suppress is used.

 

I could also argue that including the EB as a mental power falls under "minor drawbacks of sfx", but I'm equally inclined to classify the "uses EOCV" change as a "minor advantage" of sfx, even where it does result in an enhanced OCV.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

Were the campaign a primarily Mental based Game the Advantage would have been placed at a 0. However, since the game was not the GM decided within the context of this Game is was a small Advantage.

 

The GM in question was using BOECV as a starting point for the costing as well I believe.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Mental Powers Based on DEX

 

How about using the blocking rules? You can grab an opponent and then block with him, here the sfx would be that instead of physically grabbing him you just move out of the way. You could build it like this:

 

10 STR TK, Trigger - When attacked by someone (+¼), 0 END, Fully Invisible (+1), Only for grabbing & blocking (-½), Grab breakout is DEX vs DEX roll instead of STR vs STR and is automatic after 1 Segment (+0), only if able to dodge (-½) Active: 41, Real: 20

 

You could by it no range if it only applies to punches, but if you want to dodge bullets so that someone else is in the way, leave it as is. You would have to abort to block to do this, but that would represent your action anyway. Also, the inherent difficulty in pulling this stunt off would be reflecting the the penalty for blocking with an unwieldy object. The DEX vs DEX breakout reflects the ability, but I wouldn't normally allow it except in this restricted fashion.

 

Well that's my brainstorm, so now please shoot holes in this construct.

 

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"Why follow me to higher ground, lost as you swear I am?" - Ed Roland