Opinion: EuroStar

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

My question to Steve specifically addressed this point. It described the *exact* situation we're talking about (grabbing both at the same time).

 

*nods* Well then.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Nighthawk's armor [which is really an invisible force field due to special effects] has no activation roll. As such it is considered to be 100% coverage. If armor has an activation then it is not 100% coverage. I'd also point out that Champions does not use hit location [...]

 

Champions doesn't normally roll for Hit Location with every attack, no.

 

However, Called Shots still use the Hit Location Modifiers table. -2 is the modifier for targeting Accessible Foci, not for portions of the body. That has its own chart, ranging from -2 to -8 OCV, depending on how small or how vital a part you're trying to nail.

 

Note also that Scorpia's limitation was written 'Must *Target* Unarmored Hit Locations'. She doesn't get to make skin contact for free... she has to make a Called Shot. So people with virtually no skin showing are harder for her to nick than people who go to battle in a chainmail bikini. She can still do it, but she has to actually connect.

[MitchellS]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Champions doesn't normally roll for Hit Location with every attack, no.

 

However, Called Shots still use the Hit Location Modifiers table. -2 is the modifier for targeting Accessible Foci, not for portions of the body. That has its own chart, ranging from -2 to -8 OCV, depending on how small or how vital a part you're trying to nail.

 

Note also that Scorpia's limitation was written 'Must *Target* Unarmored Hit Locations'. She doesn't get to make skin contact for free... she has to make a Called Shot. So people with virtually no skin showing are harder for her to nick than people who go to battle in a chainmail bikini. She can still do it, but she has to actually connect.

Called shots are an optional rule and are not used in Champions unless the GM wishes to use them. As such a person is perfectly free to just either assign no modifier or to assign a pentaly such as targeting foci modifier. You can't force someone to use an optional rule.

[Gary]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

*nods* Well then.

 

 

Do we now agree that Eurostar can make it competitive if Fiacho makes his tactics roll and assigns Durak and Mentalla to work as a team?

 

I think Gravitar would win more than 1/2 the time, but it's not going to be completely lopsided.

[Kirby]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

I agree that the darts should effect Gravitar' date=' regardless of SFX. SFX are not a way to get around a properly paid for NND She does however have Missile Deflection that could be used against the darts.[/quote']

Actually, SFX here could help. Gravitar's FF is listed as "Gravity shielding," which says to me she doesn't have an actual barrier in front of her, but is using gravity to deflect (not Missile Defelct) attacks. Someone shoots a bullet at her, when it gets into her gravity field, it drops to the ground. Some brick punches her, the gravity causes the punch to miss her chest and swings down, nicking her thigh. (Now, why a 600 mph round drops while a 30 mph punch nicks is game mechanics, but I could explain it out in theory, but it'd take too much time.) So, how could Scorpia's attack, which technically should affect Gravitar? Scorpia throws the darts at Gravitar's face, but the gravity pulls the trajectory down, landing in her thigh, delivering her poison.

 

On a side, UNTIL Superpowers Database mentions in the sidebar about the Eurostar/Gravitar encounter. First, it states that it's believed Gravitar goaded Fiacho. I think this is important because had it just been a 'call out,' Eurostar would have vactated to attack on their terms (read: ambush) and Gravitar would have been left pouting, since she has no talent skills, aside from Stealth. She can't track, she has no tactics, nothing.

 

However, the most important part (I believe) is where the sidebar says, "What remains unclear is why Mentalla did not stop the assault with a psionic attack...." I've pointed out several times that all Mentalla has to do is Mind Control Gravitar to either attack only one person, or for Mentalla to push her powers and she can make Gravitar land with her shields down. Why didn't this happen? Because Gravitar would be dead. It only takes one Eurostar victory for this cheesy villain (which I've seen many on the boards state they don't care for her and think she has a poor writeup) to no longer exist in the CU. *Poof* no more pathetic "master villain."

 

 

Here's my likely "if it were realistic" scenario: Eurostar just finishes trashing UNTIL in downtown of some European city, near some City Hall. Gravitar shows up, about 30" in the air and announces her presence (Overconfidence, lack of tactics.) Scorpia goes first, but does a noncombat run away, trying to get out of the expected 'gravity zone.' Gravitar wins a roll-off with Mentalla and uses her 50 STR AoE TK to attempt to pin the entire team. Fiacho, Mentalla, and Ultrasonique are pinned. (Scorpia's 18" NCM running took her out of the area.) Feuermacher who was flying high also, is unaffected. He flies higher than Gravitar and fires his 3d6 RKA "Melting Blast" at Gravitar, hits, but her Gravity Shield allows to her take no STUN. Der Westgote is unaffected by the AE TK, so grabs a car and throws it at Gravitar, but misses; however, Gravitar realizes if it does hit, she could be in trouble and tries to think of something to do on her next phase. Durak is also unaffected, but opts to grab Mentalla and superleap onto a building out of Gravitar's AE. Mentalla Mind Controls Gravitar, telling her to concentrate her attacks on killing Fiacho, because if Fiacho falls, so does Eurostar.

 

PHASE 2: Gravitar, still flying, cannot break free from the Mind Control (she's at -5 EGO roll) and starts her 1d6+1 RKA NND Does BODY, Continuous "Selective Weight Alteration" which does an Average of 4 BODY (Average STUN won't affect Fiacho, other than the 4 he loses with the BODY damage.) Mentalla continues pouring END into the Mind Control. Der Westgote goes over to Fiacho, and waits.

 

PHASE 3: Durak NCM half-moves superleaps over to Fiacho and holds.

 

PHASE 4: Mentalla goes first, pushes her Mind Control and commands Gravitar to land next to Fiacho with her shields down. Gravitar fails her roll and lands.

Der Westgote grabs Gravitar from behind while Durak smashes into her. Ultrasonique gets up. Scorpia comes running back (had been holding).

 

PHASE 5: Durak, smashes Gravitar's chest, Fuermacher flies down and blasts with an EB. Scorpia uses her HKA to start gutting Gravitar. Ultrasonique comes closer.

 

PHASE 6: Gravitar breaks free of Mentalla's Mind Control and flies up NCM 60". As she does this, her head explodes and she comes crashing down to the ground, lifeless. Menton teleports into the area. "I am now taking charge of Eurostar." Fiacho is dead as well, since Menton used the same 5d6 RKA "Pscykinetic Rending" on Phase 2, and 3, versus Fiacho that he just used on Gravitar. Durak starts to move, but Menton merely looks at him while Der Westgote steps inbetween, places a hand on Durak's chest and shakes his head "no."

[Zed-F]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Hm, I'd have to say that it's all really one big grab since it's all one power; Gravitar doesn't have a hundred tentacles to grab each individual separately. That's based on Gravitar's SFX, as much as on the grab rules and the above FAQ. It's a gravity-based pin, and Durak is strong enough to overcome the gravity field.

 

Even so, Durak being (a) in position to grab Mentalla before Gravitar starts the grab-breakout cycle and ( think of that particular tactic before © Gravitar manages to KO Mentalla with the grab-squeeze (not to mention her other attacks!) seems fairly unlikely, at least unless Eurostar has time to prepare beforehand.

 

Which brings me to another interesting question. It seems to me we have 4 possible scenarios here:

 

1) Gravitar attacks Eurostar 5E from surprise. Gravitar probably wins easily. Ho-hum.

 

2) Eurostar 5E attacks Gravitar from surprise. Eurostar probably wins without too much trouble, unless Mentalla gets unlucky. There's all sorts of tricks she can pull to subtly influence Gravitar into an untenable position, if Gravitar doesn't know she's there to begin with. Ho-hum.

 

3) Arena match -- I classify this as surprise on both sides. Neither side is really expecting to face the other or has time to prepare, Q just plonks them down in the arena and off they go. I'd have to give the advantage here to Gravitar as she really needs less preparation to exert her strengths in the most effective manner against her opponents.

 

4) Surprise on neither side. This is a bit more interesting. Supposing we have an objective each side wants to reach/steal/acheive somewhere in the city, and each side knows the other is coming, if not exactly when/where. Now both sides have an opportunity to prepare, without handing either side an unfair advantage or a plot device that doesn't appear on their character sheets. This is where you are more likely to get tactics like Durak's above showing up, or tactics like trying to keep Mentalla hidden and use her as a sniper while the rest of the group tries to flush out Gravitar and/or accomplish the objective. Of course, while Gravitar is a bit overconfident, she also isn't stupid, and might well come up with tactics of her own. It's less clear-cut, but the advantage of having a mentalist who can attack invisibly from hiding is a strong one. I'd have to give the advantage to Eurostar, but it's a slim advantage, which could easily be erased by a single mistake.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Do we now agree that Eurostar can make it competitive if Fiacho makes his tactics roll and assigns Durak and Mentalla to work as a team?

 

Not quite -- in order for all this setup to be in place, Eurostar has to be attacking Gravitar from ambush... and I am nowhere near as confident as you are that they can easily arrange for such. Not until and unless they first get her Secret ID.

 

OTOH, I will agree that *if* they can blindside-ambush Gravitar, their odds improve notably.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Called shots are an optional rule and are not used in Champions unless the GM wishes to use them.

 

If you have an attack that requires someone to specifically target a given hit location in order to work, the called shot rule ceases to be 'optional'.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

As for the SFX of Gravitar's force field, I might point out that she also has a Force *Wall* based on the same SFX, which puts the 'it just pulls things off target, it's not actually a barrier' reasoning severely in doubt.

[Gary]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Not quite -- in order for all this setup to be in place, Eurostar has to be attacking Gravitar from ambush... and I am nowhere near as confident as you are that they can easily arrange for such. Not until and unless they first get her Secret ID.

 

OTOH, I will agree that *if* they can blindside-ambush Gravitar, their odds improve notably.

 

 

A blindside ambush is a near certainty against Gravitar, since it will result in a 10d6 pushed haymaker ego blast or a 20d6 mind control.

 

All my above tactic requires is that Fiacho (with 14- tactics) had worked out tactics against a terrifying 1000 pt villain who Eurostar is hunting. Hardly a stretch.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

All my above tactic requires is that Fiacho (with 14- tactics) had worked out tactics against a terrifying 1000 pt villain who Eurostar is hunting. Hardly a stretch.

 

You can't get a free ambush on someone simply by making a Tactics roll. If it were that easy, every PC would simply buy Tactics, and then slam every supervillain at 3am coming out of the bathroom.

 

To successfully ambush someone, you have to know where they're going to be in advance. And that's not 'make a Tactics roll', that's 'either bust out some Precognition or explain to me who told your character about Gravitar's upcoming plan'.

 

Since Gravitar operates without any teammates or minions, that's about zero point zero chances for a security leak as regards her next upcoming operation.

 

So how is Eurostar knowing, sans precog?

 

Edit -- or let me put it another way. Would you allow any PC who bought Tactics, 14-, to ambush any supervillain at will?

[Gary]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

You can't get a free ambush on someone simply by making a Tactics roll. If it were that easy, every PC would simply buy Tactics, and then slam every supervillain at 3am coming out of the bathroom.

 

To successfully ambush someone, you have to know where they're going to be in advance. And that's not 'make a Tactics roll', that's 'either bust out some Precognition or explain to me who told your character about Gravitar's upcoming plan'.

 

Since Gravitar operates without any teammates or minions, that's about zero point zero chances for a security leak as regards her next upcoming operation.

 

So how is Eurostar knowing, sans precog?

 

Edit -- or let me put it another way. Would you allow any PC who bought Tactics, 14-, to ambush any supervillain at will?

 

I'm not talking ambush. I'm talking Durak and Mentalla working together. An actual ambush means Gravitar almost certainly loses due to the aforementioned pushed haymakers.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

I'm not talking ambush. I'm talking Durak and Mentalla working together.

 

Which means you're talking ambush, as Durak and Mentalla already have to be in position, set up(*), and ready to take action before Gravitar walks into the kill zone... which obviously means they knew she was coming in advance.

 

Hint: Any situation where one side has taken time out to plan out in detail exactly who's gonna do what to whom, and set themselves up in pre-positioned ready stances, while the other side is just walking into it, *IS* an ambush, by definition.

 

 

 

(*) He doesn't normally walk around holding Mentalla in a bear hug all the time, for one thing.

[Gary]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Which means you're talking ambush, as Durak and Mentalla already have to be in position, set up(*), and ready to take action before Gravitar walks into the kill zone... which obviously means they knew she was coming in advance.

 

Hint: Any situation where one side has taken time out to plan out in detail exactly who's gonna do what to whom, and set themselves up in pre-positioned ready stances, while the other side is just walking into it, *IS* an ambush, by definition.

 

 

 

(*) He doesn't normally walk around holding Mentalla in a bear hug all the time, for one thing.

 

 

You yourself stipulated a "meeting engagement" where both sides are actively hunting each other and see each other at the same time. Durak would hold Mentalla in a bear hug in such a situation if Fiacho told him to.

[Gary]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Put it this way. If it were a *complete* surprise encounter for both sides, Scorpia would force Gravitar to Abort immediately since neither side would have nonpersistent defences such as Force Field up. And that would give Mentalla a free shot.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

You yourself stipulated a "meeting engagement" where both sides are actively hunting each other and see each other at the same time. Durak would hold Mentalla in a bear hug in such a situation if Fiacho told him to.

 

This assumes that Mentalla and Durak are already standing in the same hex when the meeting occurs... which is vanishingly unlikely, because Durak is Eurostar's chief damage sponge and takes point, whereas Mentalla's usual place in the battle order is where the mentalist feels most comfortable, i.e., towards the rear. Fiacho is nowhere near stupid enough to routinely put his team telepath in the exact same hex that is going to be drawing fire from the opposition's heaviest attacks, because God knows that whoever has the biggest gun on the other side is going to be shooting it at Durak.

 

There is also the fact that as one of Eurostar's only two fliers, Mentalla usually goes into battle *airborne*. (Where, incidentally, she also has a much better LOS under normal circumstances.) Durak, of course, is ground-bound.

 

Basically, the only way Mentalla and Durak will start a fight in the same hex, let alone hugging each other, is if they are deliberately planning to in advance. Under normal circumstances, they wouldn't even be within a half move of each other.

 

(edit) As you yourself pointed out, Fiacho normally likes to spread out his troops.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Put it this way. If it were a *complete* surprise encounter for both sides' date=' Scorpia would force Gravitar to Abort immediately since neither side would have nonpersistent defences such as Force Field up.[/quote']

 

Incorrect -- if Gravitar is in costume at all, then she's already planning to fight somebody or do some crime, as she doesn't appear in public as 'Gravitar' except when she's ready to rumble. (For that matter, as the most wanted criminals in Europe, I'm certain that Eurostar also never goes out in public without expecting *some* kind of trouble, as they can find trouble with the law simply by showing up and breathing.)

 

Which means she'll have her force field up. She might be completely surprised by the presence of *Eurostar*, but she'd already be expecting opposition from *someone*, even if it was simply Jean the Gendarme with his pistol. And since she has *no* resistant DEF with that FF down, even the possibility of a normal street cop seeing the infamous supervillain Gravitar and hosing one off at her would be enough for her to want shields up. (Again, remember, she's Overconfident Moderate, not Masochistic Total. Being shot *hurts*.)

 

There is a reason I have consistently said that in order to catch Gravitar with her field down, Eurostar would first have to crack her secret ID and mug her while she was shopping.

[Gary]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

This assumes that Mentalla and Durak are already standing in the same hex when the meeting occurs... which is vanishingly unlikely, because Durak is Eurostar's chief damage sponge and takes point, whereas Mentalla's usual place in the battle order is where the mentalist feels most comfortable, i.e., towards the rear. Fiacho is nowhere near stupid enough to routinely put his team telepath in the exact same hex that is going to be drawing fire from the opposition's heaviest attacks, because God knows that whoever has the biggest gun on the other side is going to be shooting it at Durak.

 

There is also the fact that as one of Eurostar's only two fliers, Mentalla usually goes into battle *airborne*. (Where, incidentally, she also has a much better LOS under normal circumstances.) Durak, of course, is ground-bound.

 

Basically, the only way Mentalla and Durak will start a fight in the same hex, let alone hugging each other, is if they are deliberately planning to in advance. Under normal circumstances, they wouldn't even be within a half move of each other.

 

Yeah, the scenario *you* stipulated where both sides are hunting each other. In which case Fiacho has already worked out the tactics and they have a modified formation to deal with their foe.

 

It's actually much worse for your position if both sides are surprised. Scorpia throws her dart. Gravitar must abort to FF or eat a 4d6 NND RKA does body. Mentalla gets a free shot, and Durak picks her up anyway with his action.

[Gary]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Incorrect -- if Gravitar is in costume at all, then she's already planning to fight somebody or do some crime, as she doesn't appear in public as 'Gravitar' except when she's ready to rumble. (For that matter, as the most wanted criminals in Europe, I'm certain that Eurostar also never goes out in public without expecting *some* kind of trouble, as they can find trouble with the law simply by showing up and breathing.)

 

Which means she'll have her force field up. She might be completely surprised by the presence of *Eurostar*, but she'd already be expecting opposition from *someone*, even if it was Joe Security Guard with his .38. And since she has *no* resistant DEF with that FF down, even the possibility of a normal street cop seeing the infamous supervillain Gravitar and hosing one off at her would be enough for her to want shields up. (Again, remember, she's Overconfident Moderate, not Masochistic Total. Being shot *hurts*.)

 

There is a reason I have consistently said that in order to catch Gravitar with her field down, Eurostar would first have to crack her secret ID and mug her while she was shopping.

 

 

Force Fields are Visable. There could be a very valid reason why Gravitar is going from point A to point B without wanting to be lit like a Christmas tree.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Force Fields are Visable. There could be a very valid reason why Gravitar is going from point A to point B without wanting to be lit like a Christmas tree.

 

Ah, but this kind of behavior *is* within the purview of Moderate Overconfidence. Why should Gravitar care about hiding? Whatever superheroes show up, she can handle it.

 

(Besides, simply showing up in her costume makes her visible enough anyway. Costumes stick out. That's their *job*.)

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

> Yeah, the scenario *you* stipulated where both sides are hunting each other.

 

Um, the scenario I specified was 'meeting engagement' -- i.e., neither side is out-of-combat surprised, *and* neither side has made any specific advance preparations for the other one.

 

Think of it as they both showed up to rob the same bank on the same day, saw each other, and went:

 

"What are you doing here?"

 

"What are YOU doing here?!?"

 

"So, you wish to feel the might of Gravitar again? Was not one defeat enough?"

 

"Insolent woman! You will not be so fortunate a second time! Eurostar, attack!"

 

And thus begins the initiative order, as well as a big ol' superpowered street brawl out in front of the bank.

 

(edit) Which means Gravitar already has her force field up, as she was 'expecting combat' -- combat with the bank's security or the local superheroes, if not Eurostar. Likewise, Eurostar isn't taking any out-of-combat surprise penalties either, as they were expecting the exact same thing.

 

It's just, neither side gets to do any prep time specifically for the other one.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

... you know, it occurs to me, Gravitar can get almost half of Eurostar to completely throw whatever pre-prepared tactics they might be using to the winds, simply by taunting them.

 

As both Fiacho and Durak -- at least -- have that 'Enraged if mocked or humiliated'.

 

Granted, Gravitar has the same Psych Lim, but given that her Enraged tactics would be "GRAVITAR CRUSH!", and her normal tactics are, ummm, 'Gravitar crush!', she's not taking as much of a handicap here.

 

OTOH, the side that is depending upon careful synchronization and timing and everybody working together? They're in trouble.

 

Especially since Durak was supposed to hang back and help out Mentalla, *NOT* blow his Enraged roll and charge straight at Gravitar, screaming obscenities.

[Haerandir]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

It's just, neither side gets to do any prep time specifically for the other one.

 

To those just tuning in, or who haven't been paying attention, the reason Chuck insists on this sort of engagement is not because he doesn't think it's possible for Eurostar to ambush Gravitar, but because he thinks it doesn't prove anything. I agree. This is one of my baseline test cases: If Martin Blank with a deer rifle can succeed in the same circumstances as your 350+ pt. combat monster metahuman, then it doesn't matter what powers they have.

 

$50,000 and a Swiss bank account is all you need to take out Gravitar if you can arrange the ambush.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Well, yeah. If you can guarantee a clear shot at Gravitar while she's lying snugly asleep in her little bed, then who needs Eurostar? Just go get Lazer -- or a 150-point VIPER agent with the 'sniper school' skillset -- and pop her one in the forehead, through the bedroom window, with your No Range Penalty RKA from 400 hexes.

 

*BLAM*, Gravitar's brains are now all over her pillow.

 

But does this mean that Lazer (or VIPER Sniper Generic #1) compares to Gravitar in power or capability? Remotely? Hell no. It's merely proof that unless somebody is invulnerable in their sleep, you can kill them in their sleep. Which we already knew.

 

(edit) Although I do think it's unlikely for Eurostar to ambush Gravitar, because unlike some other possible opponents, Gravitar has no confidants or co-conspirators to potentially leak her plans. Neither do her plans normally require advance set-ups, lengthy preparations, ordering special parts for the doomsday machine, or other such things that would give opposing force intel analysts enough clues to deduce her probable next move.

 

This means that the only person who knows where she's going to be on any given day is her, which makes ambushing her damn problematic.

[Haerandir]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

I admit, I mostly made that post as an excuse to use the phrase "Martin Blank with deer rifle".

 

Man, that was a good movie.

 

Edit: I agree that it's vanishingly unlikely, but anything's possible. As a thought exercise, I spent some time last night working out a scenario under which Eurostar could track down Gravitar. As you've pointed out before, UNTIL hasn't managed it, neither has Interpol, and they've got far more (and more directly useful) resources to commit to the job than Eurostar does. So the first thing Eurostar needs to do is raid UNTIL and Interpol headquarters and steal all the data those organizations have on Gravitar. Then, they need to hire a bunch of professional intelligence analysts to go through that mass of data, along with all publicly available Gravitar sightings that occur after the raids, plus whatever they can collect from their underworld contacts (which is probably not much, as Gravitar has no underworld connections in any case, and even if you rule that she hangs with Viperia and Holocaust, neither of them is likely to give Eurostar the time of day, much less stab their only real friend in the back)... Then they need to hire a bunch of field operatives and flood those countries most likely to be Gravitar's home nation with observers. Once they've amassed enough data, they can probably narrow it down to one country, then one region, then once city, then one neighborhood, then one house. Shouldn't take more than a couple of years and a few hundred million Euros. At that point, a normal hit man with a sniper rifle doesn't add much to the bill.

 

Piece o' cake!

 

And, in another no doubt vain attempt to return this thread to it's original purpose, this just underlines the need for Fiacho to turn Eurostar into an effective intelligence network if he's really serious about conquering Europe, or anything else, for that matter.