Magic system opinions

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Magic system opinions

 

I personally like the 1/3 cost method. For 150 point games it makes spells affordable without all the complexity of managing a MP, VPP, or EC. For any given power it may or may not work in any of those constructs depending on the other powers already there.

 

When you take a snapshot of a built character it isn't that far off from any of those methods and the points are just about right. Especially for new players, handing them a grimoire and telling them that when they choose a spell and write it on their character sheet to divide the cost by 3 that makes things very simple.

 

I'm certainly not saying that the 1/3 method is the be all end all, just that it is a perfectly valid approach to spellcasting that is very accessable.

 

As for limitations having value, consider having them impact the skill roll. If your normal sweet of lims is gestures, incantations, RSR (only in extreme -1/4; roll only when distracted/under stress), and concentation = -1, then say for every -1/4 above and beyond those you get +1 to the casting roll. That way if someone selects "Only vs. Fire" -1/2, they will be +2 to casting. Sure, spell cost wise the limitation has little value in an MP but the GM can assess whatever mods are appropriate when RSR is in play. There's nothing wrong with doing this from a system PoV, and it makes those lims have value. If you don't like the benchmark of "everything beyond -1", use "any limitation that alters the affect of the power but not its instantiation". That way things like extra time, gestures, and so on wouldn't be considered but gradual effect, limited power, reduced pen, etc. would.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Magic system opinions

 

Good morning, mudpyr8!

 

You said this:

 

As for limitations having value, consider having them impact the skill roll. If your normal sweet of lims is gestures, incantations, RSR (only in extreme -1/4; roll only when distracted/under stress), and concentation = -1, then say for every -1/4 above and beyond those you get +1 to the casting roll. That way if someone selects "Only vs. Fire" -1/2, they will be +2 to casting. Sure, spell cost wise the limitation has little value in an MP but the GM can assess whatever mods are appropriate when RSR is in play. There's nothing wrong with doing this from a system PoV, and it makes those lims have value. If you don't like the benchmark of "everything beyond -1", use "any limitation that alters the affect of the power but not its instantiation". That way things like extra time, gestures, and so on wouldn't be considered but gradual effect, limited power, reduced pen, etc. would.

 

And I'm pretty certain I don't understand what you're saying. Can you give a clearer example? I am, in fact, using the RSR under duress (1/4! Hadn't thought of that, thanks!) but I'm at a loss as to how you're handling the rest of your example. Can you clarify?

 

Thanks!

[hancock.tom]

Re: Magic system opinions

 

I'm surprised no one has yet suggested the EC as a framework for FH spellcasters;

 

I think Killer Shrike has an example of this on his website, under framework based magic systems.

 

I was thinking of using a variation on it in my next FH campaign, for all of the reasons mentioned by old man.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Magic system opinions

 

Sure. Let's say you have the following:

 

EB; Reduced Pen -1/4, Living Targets Only -1/4, Gestures -1/4, Incantations -1/4, Concentration -1/4, RSR (Duress only) -1/4.

Limitations = -1 1/2

 

So, since as the GM I've made my baseline -1 (arbitrarily but based on the fact I assume characters will take gestures, incantations, concentration, RSR), IF they had to make a skill roll, that roll would be +2 becuse the spell is limited above and beyond the base line at +1 per -1/4 limitations.

 

The magic system I use, and is used for Narosia, incorporates limitations in to the casting difficulty of the spell. That way regardless of the spell's cost the limitations do have an effect on the mage's ability to bring a spell into play, and thus have value.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic system opinions

 

I think Killer Shrike has an example of this on his website, under framework based magic systems.

 

I was thinking of using a variation on it in my next FH campaign, for all of the reasons mentioned by old man.

Ya. Aeldnearen, a combination access Talent / Elemental Control system:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/aeldenaren.shtml

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Magic system opinions

 

That was the one I was referring too in my post. I just don't use the Talents for it, but that's because of how I'm handling it IMC.

 

mudpyr8 - you're saying (if I understand correctly) that for every modifier beyond the base set (I use a charge system and a variable -1 pool (-1/2)) so that anything beyond that base -1 forces a skill roll, and that the roll is affected by those things which alter the composition of the spell against the player. So a +2 to an 11- DC would be a roll of 13-, yes?

 

That may be too brutal, but 1/2 may not be enough. Hrm. That might work, and it would certainly give players food for thought before casting, but I also think it may be 'too' different from d20 (and there's a look & feel of reliability I don't want to sacrifice). This is an awesome suggestion, and one which will likely make its way into my Urban Fantasy.

 

Thanks!

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Magic system opinions

 

you're saying (if I understand correctly) that for every modifier beyond the base set (I use a charge system and a variable -1 pool (-1/2)) so that anything beyond that base -1 forces a skill roll

 

Yes and no. Yes you consider everything beyond the -1, no it does not force a roll. It is simply a modifier to the roll should it ever be needed, based on the system you are playing (e.g. roll every time vs. roll under duress). It's just a modifier.

 

and that the roll is affected by those things which alter the composition of the spell against the player. So a +2 to an 11- DC would be a roll of 13-, yes?

DC in Hero terms means damage class, and if by against the player you mean "things that limit the effect of the spell", then yes. So, think "Disrupt Undead". It is a simple energy blast that only affects undead (-1), so this would be +4 to casting.

That may be too brutal, but 1/2 may not be enough.

Don't understand.

 

This shouldn't be any more or less different from d20, just a way of accounting for the limitations should a, to use a d20 mechanic, Concentration Check be needed. Think of it as a bonus to the Concentration Check because the spell is limited in some way and thus "easier" to cast.

 

Another idea to enhance your quasi d20 esque system. Require a roll every time. If the roll is successful, they don't use a charge, otherwise they use a charge. If they are under duress (i.e. concentration check circumstances), a failed roll means failure and a success means it costs a charge. Just some ideas. You could even have crits (less than half the skill level) grant max effect normally or no charge when under duress. The spells are still reliable it's just a question of how efficient. This would make spells with limitations which grant bonuses to a skill roll attractive as well as encourage characters to develop their skill levels.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Magic system opinions

 

Sorry, mea culpa, when I say "DC" I usually still mean Difficulty Check, not Damage Class, which is rough for people who are using HERO, because I just borked their flow of the passage. Oops.

 

This shouldn't be any more or less different from d20, just a way of accounting for the limitations should a, to use a d20 mechanic, Concentration Check be needed. Think of it as a bonus to the Concentration Check because the spell is limited in some way and thus "easier" to cast.

 

Okay, so I have the gist of it then; when going to cast a spell while under duress (which I'm already using) then any additional lims (things that limit the spell, but are not 'time' based) make the spell easier to cast. I can get behind that. I'd read it backwards originally, and that really wasn't making sense.

 

Thanks!

[Old Man]

Re: Magic system opinions

 

I think Killer Shrike has an example of this on his website' date=' under framework based magic systems. [/quote']

 

I don't think there's anything that hasn't already been done by KS and posted on his website.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Magic system opinions

 

I wouldn't go that far. KS offers a nice selection of options but they are not the only solutions.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic system opinions

 

I wouldn't go that far. KS offers a nice selection of options but they are not the only solutions.

True enough, but I do try to provide some coverage of as many things as I can think of that I feel have reusability.

 

The site isnt there to stifle creativity; it is there to serve as inspiration to those that want to do their own thing, and as a ready made, usable as is block of content for those who don't want to reinvent the wheel.

 

You can run multiple types of campaigns directly off the material provided, or borrow from it buffet style, or use some core of it and extend to fit, or just use it as an example / template of things to think about, or totally disregard it and everything in between.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Magic system opinions

 

Absolutely, and I think you have done an outstanding job, and service to the Hero community. They are an excellent spot to review and avoid reinventing the wheel as it were, with many wheels to choose from.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Magic system opinions

 

Which is why he's so apprecaited, and well and consistently referenced, even among my own group as a launch pad for how we get it done. Cause he done got it done.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Magic system opinions

 

Another question, let's say I want a spell to create a force field around one of my allies. Am I right in saying I should use Usable On Others (+1/4), Persistent (+1/2), Costs END only to activate (-1/4)? And, if this is in a framework then it eats up points in the framework to lockout other spells right? Is there an option to use lingering/uncontrollable instead? (This is still a bit confusing to me.)

[Rapier]

Re: Magic system opinions

 

"Meditation to gain mana" sounds like UO. Did you ever play it? I played mainly on Siege Perilous.

 

Well, yes, actually I did. I played on Pacific.

 

But the idea came from ShadowRun first...and it referred to reducing STUN damage.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Magic system opinions

 

Another question, let's say I want a spell to create a force field around one of my allies. Am I right in saying I should use Usable On Others (+1/4), Persistent (+1/2), Costs END only to activate (-1/4)? And, if this is in a framework then it eats up points in the framework to lockout other spells right? Is there an option to use lingering/uncontrollable instead? (This is still a bit confusing to me.)

 

Er, depends on your Framework design. If you're using END, then the only time it's consuming power in the Framework is during the casting. Once it's up, unless it's a Constant effect and you're still paying for it, the ability to cast a new spell is suddenly available, even though the shield is up, because the effect is a variation on Instant, IIRC.

 

If you're using a Charge system, then once you've cast Force Wall the spell is consumed, and can't be cast again unless you have another copy of the spell memmed. In a Multipower, same thing - if you have multiple charges on the framework, foom, easy. Burn charge, toss spell, next phase, new charge, new spell.

 

Lingering is for people who aren't using Continuing Charges, and yes, you can apply Lingering, but you shouldn't need too. I believe the power Force Wall by itself will remain standing once its been coughed into existence until it gets knocked down, or after its normal duration has passed (although HERO is intentionally sketchy about Duration, I'm still casting around for a way to make sure people can't Fly all day).

 

Does that answer the question?

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Magic system opinions

 

I think I've got it figured out. I'll probably go for using Lingering and Only Costs END to Activate. Since the spellcaster isn't maintaining it, he can move on to using other spells then, but he can only use this particular spell on one person at a time.