Choking The Life Out Of Someone

[Utech]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

It bears noting that this means between 48 and 96 seconds - how long does it normally take for a normal person to be choked into unconsciousness when they're (presumably) struggling and sucking in air every chance they get? [Please feel free to keep the source of knowledge in this regard private' date= by the way.]

It can easily take over a minute to render someone unconscious by cutting off their air supply. It is much faster if you block off the carotid. Actually killing them times out at about 4 minutes.

 

A little Googling found this interesting article:

 

"OPDV Bulletiin: Strangulation in Domestic Voilence and Sexual Assault"

Clinically, a victim who is being strangled first experiences severe pain, followed by unconsciousness, and then brain death. The victim will lose consciousness by any one or more of the following: blocking of the carotid arteries (depriving the brain of oxygen), blocking of the jugular veins (preventing deoxygenated blood from exiting the brain), and/or closing off the airway, causing the victim to be unable to breathe. Only eleven pounds of pressure placed upon both carotid arteries for ten seconds is necessary to cause unconsciousness. If pressure is released immediately, consciousness will be regained within ten seconds. After 50 seconds of continuous oxygen deprivation the victim rarely recovers. To completely close off the trachea, three times as much pressure (33 lbs.) is required. For comparison purposes, it only takes 8 lbs. of pressure to pull a trigger on a gun.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

Not sure. I couldn't find anything specific one way or the other.

 

Going back to the main topic...

 

It sounds like Steve made a ruling on the usefullness of STR that makes sure that a character can't grab and squeeze a character, maintain the squeeze on subsequent phases and still have a free 'attack-action' on those later phases. This part makes a lot of sense since 'attack-actions' really represent a character's main ability to concentrate in a phase.

 

 

If that really is the issue, then what I've always done is just fine. The "Squeeze" may not require a "to hit roll" but it is still an attack action and ends the phase. Since when is an attack action defined by the roll to hit, and not the actual action itself? Maybe that is in 5th or 5ER and thus has compounded this issue.

 

Again... if STR having too many powerful game effects for way too low a cost is they issue (and I would stand by that) let's not argue convoluted work arounds, and deal with the root cause.

 

One of the things Hero has shown us over the years as it has attempted to "rationalize the fantastic" is that actual applications of STR are overwhelmingly important to action/adventure/combat... thus overwhelmingly important to what Hero is all about. Instead of the original 1st Edition idea that "everyone should have access to STR" what is needed is cost STR for what it is worth, thus lowering the amounts of it out there, bringning STR damage and all the resultant builds off of STR (Martial Arts, Hand Attacks, HKAs) more in line with other attack/damaging powers.

 

This goes off into another issue that has never been adequately addressed... characteristics in general, the (flawed IMO) concepts of building powers and effects with characteristics as a base, and all the "assumed human template abilities" that are tied into characteristics but have no good game mechanic definition.

[Vorsch]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

I treat it as a non costed disadvantage that characters have by default if they dont have apropriate life suport

 

dependance Needs to breath 1/turn

 

anything interfering with this causes 1d6 stun going to body after stun exhausted

[zornwil]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

If that really is the issue, then what I've always done is just fine. The "Squeeze" may not require a "to hit roll" but it is still an attack action and ends the phase. Since when is an attack action defined by the roll to hit, and not the actual action itself? Maybe that is in 5th or 5ER and thus has compounded this issue.

 

Again... if STR having too many powerful game effects for way too low a cost is they issue (and I would stand by that) let's not argue convoluted work arounds, and deal with the root cause.

 

One of the things Hero has shown us over the years as it has attempted to "rationalize the fantastic" is that actual applications of STR are overwhelmingly important to action/adventure/combat... thus overwhelmingly important to what Hero is all about. Instead of the original 1st Edition idea that "everyone should have access to STR" what is needed is cost STR for what it is worth, thus lowering the amounts of it out there, bringning STR damage and all the resultant builds off of STR (Martial Arts, Hand Attacks, HKAs) more in line with other attack/damaging powers.

 

This goes off into another issue that has never been adequately addressed... characteristics in general, the (flawed IMO) concepts of building powers and effects with characteristics as a base, and all the "assumed human template abilities" that are tied into characteristics but have no good game mechanic definition.

IMHO, I really think there's 2 legit STR approaches:

 

1 - recost STR to 1.5 per 1 - this is a good compromise across the various genra IMHO

 

2 - separate heroic from fantastic, so to speak, and cost heroic 2:1 and fantastic 1:1

 

As an aside, I phrased #2 the way I did because I would like to see the term "superheroic" disappear, as it implies just that, comic book superheroes, not high Fantasy, not big space opera, etc..

[Dust Raven]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

I'm okay with requiring an attack roll to apply direct damage ever phase even though you've already grabbed the character. It seems to me that it's always been that way, just wasn't too clear. After all, why should you need to roll to EB or HKA the succer you've grabbed and not need to roll to crush him. Hell, why to you need to roll to punch him and not crush him. Same damage, same attack power... Never made sense to me. Now it does. You do have to roll to hit when crushing.

 

My problem is with simply suffocation, which also requires a to hit roll to maintain. When a super strong guy has grabbed a guy by the neck and chokes him (normal drowning rules), the guy is more likely to die of starvation before he suffocates, because he'll way too likely to get a breath every turn and get his post 12 recovery.

[Trystan Laryssa]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

I have always been frustrated by characters... especially strong ones... being able to do automatic damage when there's little I can do to stop them, and so, since what we do to NPCs is fair for them to do to us, I am in favor of a to-hit roll. However, I feel there is a SIGNIFICANT difference between grabbing onto a bobbing and weaving head, and keeping a dextrous character from squirming free or wrigging into a position where a breath can be stolen. Dust Raven was talking to me about this thread outside, and I came up with something he thought was post-worthy.

 

There should, IMHO, be an attack action to prevent other activities (strangling does tend to tie up one's attention), and to provide a modicum of balance for the STR-is-too-cheap argument, I am also in favor of a to-hit roll. But it is exceedingly difficult to get hold of somebody by a called shot to the throat... last I checked, the head region was at a -8. Strangulation is hard to initiate, which is balancing in itself. A clumsy brick who can't grapple will probably never hit that to begin with. A better-trained one might do much, much better.

 

However, I would rule that once the throat is Grabbed, the called shot modifier goes away. No need for it... the specific spot that was hard to target in the first place is already in hand! Instead, there is a new modifier- mild minuses up to several pluses- applied according to how good a grip the guy has on his victim. This should depend, for realism's sake, upon the strengths of the two characters. If somebody had me by the throat to choke me, I'd make an immediate attempt to escape. That roll could be very useful in determining a hit for choke damage.

 

Say the victim has a comparable STR, and missed his STR escape by not too much. He's still grabbed, and hard to hold onto. There might be a default to-hit roll... a roll at -1 or -2... or even a +1, since he IS grabbed. The actual fair numbers aren't a thing I'm good at balancing, so I'll let you guys figure out a possible chart, if you like this. Say the attacker has a much higher STR, and the latest attempt at escape was weak at best. The victim is not going anywhere in this case, and the attack rolls to do damage by strangulation would be at much higher pluses. Say the skinny speedster got in a lucky shot on the brick, and he rolled badly to escape, so mister speedy figures he'll try to use his plethora of actions to try and choke the big guy. He's just barely got a hold, and most likely will lose him on the brick's next action. He barely missed his STR escape, so speedy has a -2 or -3 to his next few hit rolls, or his puny attempts at grabbing the big guy's throat don't actually do anything.

 

So what I'm suggesting is that a choke modifier chart be developed... instead of the distance modifier, there would be a succession of negatives and pluses depending on how much the most recent escape attempt was missed by. Let this simulate how good the attacker's hold is. It makes it much easier for high STR characters to perform this maneuver, and makes it a bit more challenging for characters of equivalent stats.

 

So... what do you think? I was told it was worth a post, so I posted it. If it's good, it'll need actual numbers, which I don't crunch well, so I'll leave that in more capable hands.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

So what I'm suggesting is that a choke modifier chart be developed... instead of the distance modifier, there would be a succession of negatives and pluses depending on how much the most recent escape attempt was missed by. Let this simulate how good the attacker's hold is. It makes it much easier for high STR characters to perform this maneuver, and makes it a bit more challenging for characters of equivalent stats.

 

Thanks, Trystan. Now I have a clearer idea of what you were getting at and the reasoning behind it.

 

I'm not at all sure how the numbers could possibly work out, but I like the idea of granted bonuses or penalties based on how solid a grip the grabber has on his victim. Hero has a number of all or nothing effects (such as consciousness and health) which bother me, but not enough to warrent a complaint. I usually just ignore them in favor of a more enjoyable game. The grip thing could be nice though. It would show that there's a difference between the thug down the street has grabbed you, and when Juggernaught has grabbed you. In the Juggernaught's case, all that STR should negate more of the victim's agility than the thug's comparitively low STR. Even though most of them may have a solid grip on the target, one should have an easier time of it and have that reflected in the game mechanics.

 

But as I said, I don't know what would be a good method of assigning those bonuses or penalties.

[zornwil]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

To be clear, I'm not opposed to a to-hit roll (PS - I even favor it). The notion of using the hit location modifiers atop it when someone is ALREADY held or even more already being strangled is where I have a serious issue, especially if the victim is also going to get normal recoveries despite his neck being at least held somewhat tightly (in the event of a pre-established choke hold).

[stan da ork]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

In response to Trystan's request for mechanics tied to her idea, I propose the following (note that I am in favor of an attack roll to do damage in a Grab, but agree that the full hit location penalties don't make much sense):

 

Any attack roll to do damage to someone you have Grabbed takes a penalty equal to half the hit location penalty for the location you initially Grabbed. So if you Grabbed the head, you start with a -4 to the attack roll, whereas if you Grabbed the torso (or didn't specify a location), you start with a -0. You then apply a bonus to the attack roll equal to the amount of Normal Damage Body your STR roll exceeded the Grabbed character's STR roll during his last breakout attempt. Thus, if on the last breakout attempt you got 4 Normal Damage Body, and the Grabbed character got 2, you would gain +2 on the attack roll.

 

The implications of this rule are that if a Grabber has 20+ more STR than the Grabbee, the Grabber can deal damage to the Grabbee's head with no penalty on average (of course, the Grabber has to get a hold in the first place). A generic Grab (one that does not target a specific location), becomes very easy to hurt someone with if you have more STR than he does. And of course, this means that Bricks who manage to get a lucky Grab off on a weaker character (such as a Martial Artist or an Energy Projector) have a very good chance of choking said character out before they can excape.

 

You likee?

[Trystan Laryssa]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

I think I like... I definitely appreciate the feedback. I'm still working on learning to more fluently understand the mechanics. I only speak conversational HeroSystemic. However, I must make sure the roomie reads it and we can discuss better how it would work. At a glance, though, it looks pretty cool!

 

Thanks much!

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

To be clear' date=' I'm not opposed to a to-hit roll (PS - I even favor it). The notion of using the hit location modifiers atop it when someone is ALREADY held or even more already being strangled is where I have a serious issue, especially if the victim is also going to get normal recoveries despite his neck being at least held somewhat tightly (in the event of a pre-established choke hold).[/quote']

I'd have to agree with that. After all, a to-hit roll to keep the pressure applied correctly I can see...but why make me take a penalty to hit the head/neck (at -8! ) when I'm already holding the neck!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

Someone pointed out - it isn't all that easy to choke someone to death with your hands in a hold. Especially a struggling moving person.

 

10 Seconds on constant pressure on the artery - that's almost a full turn of pressure - with a struggling victim.

 

Personally - I think halving the Hit Location Modifier is good enough to reflect this (if you feel the need to modify the rules at all), and with something like a Garrotte to properly model the effect (no advantages from SFX!) you should be adding PSLs to Hit Locations to get rid of the issue.

 

For Game Balance what we have seems to work - I've never had the issues described here. Of course I tend to do grabs with my Brick who has a decent OCV and CSLs on top of a High STR.

[zornwil]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

Someone pointed out - it isn't all that easy to choke someone to death with your hands in a hold. Especially a struggling moving person.

 

10 Seconds on constant pressure on the artery - that's almost a full turn of pressure - with a struggling victim.

 

Personally - I think halving the Hit Location Modifier is good enough to reflect this (if you feel the need to modify the rules at all), and with something like a Garrotte to properly model the effect (no advantages from SFX!) you should be adding PSLs to Hit Locations to get rid of the issue.

 

For Game Balance what we have seems to work - I've never had the issues described here. Of course I tend to do grabs with my Brick who has a decent OCV and CSLs on top of a High STR.

I think one issue is system granularity at the normal level, which complicates this issue but should not. The game isn't intended for normals versus normals, where a 12 STR versus a 10 STR would in fact actually matter, and a 15 STR versus a 10 STR is more meaningful in impact and CVs tend to count more on the low end. The game is intended for something slightly above normals - it does an okay but not great job on this scale. As you scale up, it seems to work better, as it should.

 

Of course the issue still remains for any roughly equal characters re choking and making a roll each turn and how that is penalized or not, but I think Ghost-Angel's comments are pretty sound even if I disagree with him re the degree of minimizing the Hit Location penalty.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

A weird thought has invaded my brain...

 

Under what conditions are people typically choked into unconsciousness or death in heroic fiction? Unless the attacker is specially trained in the kung-fu art of the stilled breath or something, it seems to me that it usually happens right at the end of a short fight between two people after one guy managed to get the other in a a head lock of some kind. The vitcim makes a few attempts to get free, and after the third attempt to so goes limp or otherwise feebly struggles in vain.

 

Otherwise it's a surprise ability made on some helpless foe, such as the wife who's pinned down in bed and suffocted with a pillow.

 

So when situations like this crop up in game, what about just saying that the victim is suffocated and move on the the next scene? It would work like it does in the movies. After all, no one chokes someone during a pitched battle unless they're really good at it, so it won't make any difference if combat is more or less over. Just switch to noncombat time and say they get choked.

 

Is this a realistic and or reasonable solve, or just too cheezy for us Hero System simulationists to swallow?

[zornwil]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

A weird thought has invaded my brain...

 

Under what conditions are people typically choked into unconsciousness or death in heroic fiction? Unless the attacker is specially trained in the kung-fu art of the stilled breath or something, it seems to me that it usually happens right at the end of a short fight between two people after one guy managed to get the other in a a head lock of some kind. The vitcim makes a few attempts to get free, and after the third attempt to so goes limp or otherwise feebly struggles in vain.

 

Otherwise it's a surprise ability made on some helpless foe, such as the wife who's pinned down in bed and suffocted with a pillow.

 

So when situations like this crop up in game, what about just saying that the victim is suffocated and move on the the next scene? It would work like it does in the movies. After all, no one chokes someone during a pitched battle unless they're really good at it, so it won't make any difference if combat is more or less over. Just switch to noncombat time and say they get choked.

 

Is this a realistic and or reasonable solve, or just too cheezy for us Hero System simulationists to swallow?

I think it depends on the situation. In the ones you tend to describe I would mostly go for it. But sometimes we have the situation of the bad guy choking the good guy as the good guy struggles, thinking of what he can do. Using the HERO rules instead of dramatic sense to guide this allows in game play the PC (the good guy) the sense of this as a true struggle he could lose or might fight his way out of. So in those situations it's good to have rules that work reasonably well.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

I think it depends on the situation. In the ones you tend to describe I would mostly go for it. But sometimes we have the situation of the bad guy choking the good guy as the good guy struggles' date=' thinking of what he can do. Using the HERO rules instead of dramatic sense to guide this allows in game play the PC (the good guy) the sense of this as a true struggle he could lose or might fight his way out of. So in those situations it's good to have rules that work reasonably well.[/quote']

 

Once the situation becomes hopeless though, it become an excensice in futility to continue to roll dice until something happens to change things. I really think it's unrealistic to sit there and hope they guy gets tired (runs out of END) choking you so you can escape then while conserving your energy because you aren't breaking out anyway.

 

Besides, that's what the lead pipe lying barely within arms reach is for.

[zornwil]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

Once the situation becomes hopeless though, it become an excensice in futility to continue to roll dice until something happens to change things. I really think it's unrealistic to sit there and hope they guy gets tired (runs out of END) choking you so you can escape then while conserving your energy because you aren't breaking out anyway.

 

Besides, that's what the lead pipe lying barely within arms reach is for.

I do agree as to "when the situation becomes hopeless," and would be similarly expedient.