Choking The Life Out Of Someone

[Dust Raven]

I recently posted a question to Steve Long here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39435

 

His answer did not surprise me, but made me think of the realism of it. Basically he says that you can use a normal grab to choke someone, using the normal suffocation rules (in this thread: http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1281). But he says in the thread above that it requires an attack roll each phase to do this. So what happens when an attack roll is failed?

 

I'm werry of asking Steve this as it reeks of a design philosophy question or a how to, though it really isn't. My question would be "how does a normal person choke someone without powers or martial arts?", and it would be a rules question. Based on the above threads, it looks like the answer is "he gets lucky and never rolls bad on the dice" which seems more than a bit screwed up.

 

I'm I looking at this wrong? Anyone got a better idea of how to post a direct question to Steve Long about it? What's up with this?

[austenandrews]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

I suggest you make a mental note of Steve's answer and then do it however you think is best.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

Well, I think austenandrews has rolled 3-5 for hit location on the nail.

 

My view is that grab is a continuous attack and does not require additional attack ROLLS to cause ongoing damage after the initial grab is successful and assuming that the target does not breakout with strength (or powers). Causing damage is still an attack ACTION i.e. it ends your phase, but does not require a roll.

 

That is the way it used to be and I have always played it and it has never been a problem. Maybe I should have destruction tested it more.

[Gary]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

I'd say that if you have someone grabbed and miss an attack roll, you still have him grabbed but simply fail to do damage that phase. The target still has to breakout, but for that phase takes no damage.

[Cancer]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

So the victim of the choke attack needs to successfully break out before he can take a recovery (inability to get recovery is one of the effects of being choked, right?)?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

So the victim of the choke attack needs to successfully break out before he can take a recovery (inability to get recovery is one of the effects of being choked' date=' right?)?[/quote']

 

If you are not able to apply strength I don't see how you can be choking/suffocating the target. If you are able to apply enough strength to stop someone breathing, you are able to apply enough strength to damage them. Mind you I don't think the new rule makes any sense so I am not the right person to be debating this with, I suppose.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

So the victim of the choke attack needs to successfully break out before he can take a recovery (inability to get recovery is one of the effects of being choked' date=' right?)?[/quote']

 

This is what I thought, but Steve's answers to not support this. In fact, Steve's answers seems to make it impossible to choke someone without buying a special maneuver or power to do so.

 

It's like having the High STR/Low DEX guy versus the Low STR/High DEX guy. Imagine the HS/LD guy making a lucky shot and he grabs LS/HD. In order to keep doing damage, he needs to keep making attack rolls. So even though LS/HD had hardly any chance of excaping, he's also highly resistant to being crushed, let alone choked. This doesn't seem to jive with reality at all. It's even harder for choking him. He'll have to manage to get a hold of the head location, and then keep hitting the head location. Even though the penalties are reduced, there's a really good change of failure, and once that's failed, the targets gets a breath, and a recovery, and it all starts over again from scratch. No one gets choked.

 

I'm wondering what other normal everyone can do it activities we have to pay points for or else a character can't do it there are.

[Cancer]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

OK. Glad I am not alone in being confused by all this.

[Grail Quest]

Levels of being Grabbed

 

It came up in another thread, and I thought of maybe having levels of Grab depending on how much a STR check succeeded.

 

(1)

IF we have a definition of Casual STR as being 40 points of STR less than what is necessary, we can try something like this:

 

+8 or more: 0 Phase to escape (Casual STR)

+7 to +4: Half phase to escape

+3 to +0: Full phase to escape

-1 to -4: Standard grab success

+5 or more: No hit roll required to use Squeeze or Throw

 

(2)

No character rolls less than 3 dice for a STR check. Therefore, everyone involved gets a flat number of dice so that the lowest-STR character is rolling 3 dice. For example, STR 10 versus STR 15 means 3d versus 4d.

 

(3)

We need to formulate some way to continue to lower STR below 0 when a character weakens. Perhaps when a character is at 0 END and forced to stay that way, STR reduces by 5 per Phase, and can go into an unlimited negative amount.

 

In a choke hold situation then, the target does not get any Recoveries (p424). Therefore, as he weakens, and as STUN continues to be wrung out of him, he will have less and less STR to resist the choke.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

You could also say that once the guy is Grabbed, he's much easier to hit, especially by the one who is grabbing him. Say, DCV 0. And you don't need to roll a new hit location, or target a particular location, since you've already hit and you're just maintaining the same Grab. That should make it somewhat easier.

[Agent X]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

I recently posted a question to Steve Long here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39435

 

His answer did not surprise me, but made me think of the realism of it. Basically he says that you can use a normal grab to choke someone, using the normal suffocation rules (in this thread: http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1281). But he says in the thread above that it requires an attack roll each phase to do this. So what happens when an attack roll is failed?

 

I'm werry of asking Steve this as it reeks of a design philosophy question or a how to, though it really isn't. My question would be "how does a normal person choke someone without powers or martial arts?", and it would be a rules question. Based on the above threads, it looks like the answer is "he gets lucky and never rolls bad on the dice" which seems more than a bit screwed up.

 

I'm I looking at this wrong? Anyone got a better idea of how to post a direct question to Steve Long about it? What's up with this?

Don't listen to Steve Long on this one. Many of his rulings strike me as poorly thought out. I get the feeling he doesn't actually use the system in play very much.

[Grail Quest]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

You could also say that once the guy is Grabbed' date=' he's much easier to hit, especially by the one who is grabbing him. Say, DCV 0. And you don't need to roll a new hit location, or target a particular location, since you've already hit and you're just maintaining the same Grab. That should make it somewhat easier.[/quote']

 

True enough. The rules as they are, however, get you the two people locked in holds, rolling about, alternately one on top of the other and the balance swings.

Which reminds me... Maybe damage taken needs to be factored in. Such as when someone gets the advantage because they got in a knee or a clever kick.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

You could also say that once the guy is Grabbed' date=' he's much easier to hit, especially by the one who is grabbing him. Say, DCV 0. And you don't need to roll a new hit location, or target a particular location, since you've already hit and you're just maintaining the same Grab. That should make it somewhat easier.[/quote']

 

The rulebook penalties are the grabbed character is at 1/2 DCV and Hit Location Penalties are normal. So should the strong but slow (STR 40, DEX 15; 45 points) get a lucky shot on the weak but fast (STR 10, DEX 26; 46 points), perhaps he was just Stunned by an AE attack, he would still have to roll a (11+5-5-8) a 3- to hit the head and actually choke him, even if he's not going to do any direct damage. We're not talking about using his 40 STR to crush him, but suffocate him. It's actually easier to just crush him, and while you're crushing him, the poor guy actually gets his Phase 12 recoveries!

[RDU Neil]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

Well, I think austenandrews has rolled 3-5 for hit location on the nail.

 

My view is that grab is a continuous attack and does not require additional attack ROLLS to cause ongoing damage after the initial grab is successful and assuming that the target does not breakout with strength (or powers). Causing damage is still an attack ACTION i.e. it ends your phase, but does not require a roll.

 

That is the way it used to be and I have always played it and it has never been a problem. Maybe I should have destruction tested it more.

 

Yah... I had no idea the rule had changed to say that after a successful grab, you have to keep rolling to hit. Unless the target breaks out of the grab, all further squeezing "just happens"

 

Yes, this is a bonus to STR, but it is already an underpriced munchkin power, why make this very strange, rather arbitrary ruling to try and limit it in a very non-intuitive manner.

[zornwil]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

I'd say that if you have someone grabbed and miss an attack roll' date=' you still have him grabbed but simply fail to do damage that phase. The target still has to breakout, but for that phase takes no damage.[/quote']

I think that's right.

 

And while I tend to agree that what Steve advocates may not be realistic or even the best for the game, I'm not sure it's as if the normal is crippled when choking by these rules. I don't think Steve said anything that negated what Cancer asked about REC, but even if the PC DOES get REC after a missed Attack Roll, he'd still get stunned and then KOd, if you have a SPD 2 versus SPD 2 with a STUN of 20, a PD of 2, and a REC of 4, most of the time the chokee takes 10 STUN in a Turn (assuming a very simple STR 10 and not bothering with any bonus or NND or such for the damage, assuming average 7 STUN rolled) and on a missed roll then 5 STUN in the Turn anyway, and that's minimum 1 STUN per TURN post-REC but more likely around 5 STUN in the Turn. That's 4 Turns if things go well to 0 STUN, and 8 Turns anyway. But it will happen.

 

Also, how often can one miss an Attack Roll - isn't the target basically at highly reduced DCV once grabbed?

 

I'm missing why it's so hard for a Normal?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

I'm missing why it's so hard for a Normal?

 

I think because of the ruling that hit location penalties stay the same? That more than overwhlems a normal OCV...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

And while I tend to agree that what Steve advocates may not be realistic or even the best for the game' date=' I'm not sure it's as if the normal is crippled when choking by these rules. I don't think Steve said anything that negated what Cancer asked about REC, but even if the PC DOES get REC after a missed Attack Roll, he'd still get stunned and then KOd, if you have a SPD 2 versus SPD 2 with a STUN of 20, a PD of 2, and a REC of 4, most of the time the chokee takes 10 STUN in a Turn (assuming a very simple STR 10 and not bothering with any bonus or NND or such for the damage, assuming average 7 STUN rolled) and on a missed roll then 5 STUN in the Turn anyway, and that's minimum 1 STUN per TURN post-REC but more likely around 5 STUN in the Turn. That's 4 Turns if things go well to 0 STUN, and 8 Turns anyway. But it will happen.[/quote']

 

It bears noting that this means between 48 and 96 seconds - how long does it normally take for a normal person to be choked into unconsciousness when they're (presumably) struggling and sucking in air every chance they get? [Please feel free to keep the source of knowledge in this regard private, by the way.]

[zornwil]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

It bears noting that this means between 48 and 96 seconds - how long does it normally take for a normal person to be choked into unconsciousness when they're (presumably) struggling and sucking in air every chance they get? [Please feel free to keep the source of knowledge in this regard private' date= by the way.]

 

I know it may not be realistic in time, but just was reacting to what seemed to be a more general problem. Of course, this system, I would daresay, isn't really well suited to "normal" realistic interactions as much as it is cinematic/high-end abnormal.

 

Regarding realism, though, normal on normal (no fighting skill, no extra STR, etc.) don't you think that one person choking another is a very messy and not very quick proposition, something very haphazard?

[zornwil]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

I think because of the ruling that hit location penalties stay the same? That more than overwhlems a normal OCV...

I missed that, was that a Steve-ism?

 

Okay, so if the Grab renders the victim at 1/2 DCV (correct?), for two PCs (for simplicity), rounds to 2, then with any modifier, yup, ugly, I get it.

 

Yes, that would be problematic.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

I just recently rewatched the movie "Constantine" the other night and this thread reminded me of the scene of where the title character drowns the sister so she can recover her lost 'sight'. The circumstances are a bit more restrictive than what is being currently discussed here since the sister was already submerged in a bathtub full of water. When she was about out of breath and wanted to come up for air Constantine just holds down the upper part of her body. He has all the advantages at that point. And it 'seemed' real.

 

As far as the general grab and choke method being discussed here lets discuss a more common circumstance:

 

What if a grabbing character decided to push the grabbed character to the ground/wall/ceiling (some solid surface) and then use his mass to 'pin' the character in that position (in addition to the grab itself)? The target would now be effectively prone and should get a further 1/2 DCV penalty above and beyond the one for being grabbed which I believe DOES reduce hit location modifiers. This should give the grabber the advantage in the STR vs DEX example. However, the grabber's DCV would be pretty low at this point too probably.

 

HM

[RDU Neil]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

I just recently rewatched the movie "Constantine" the other night and this thread reminded me of the scene of where the title character drowns the sister so she can recover her lost 'sight'. The circumstances are a bit more restrictive than what is being currently discussed here since the sister was already submerged in a bathtub full of water. When she was about out of breath and wanted to come up for air Constantine just holds down the upper part of her body. He has all the advantages at that point. And it 'seemed' real.

 

As far as the general grab and choke method being discussed here lets discuss a more common circumstance:

 

What if a grabbing character decided to push the grabbed character to the ground/wall/ceiling (some solid surface) and then use his mass to 'pin' the character in that position (in addition to the grab itself)? The target would now be effectively prone and should get a further 1/2 DCV penalty above and beyond the one for being grabbed which I believe DOES reduce hit location modifiers. This should give the grabber the advantage in the STR vs DEX example. However, the grabber's DCV would be pretty low at this point too probably.

 

HM

 

What if we just ignored this new and rather non-intuitive ruling and just played the way the game was set up for 20 previous years and not have to worry about so many convoluted rationalizations?

 

Hmmm... nah... that'd never work.

[zornwil]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

I think that's right.

 

And while I tend to agree that what Steve advocates may not be realistic or even the best for the game, I'm not sure it's as if the normal is crippled when choking by these rules. I don't think Steve said anything that negated what Cancer asked about REC, but even if the PC DOES get REC after a missed Attack Roll, he'd still get stunned and then KOd, if you have a SPD 2 versus SPD 2 with a STUN of 20, a PD of 2, and a REC of 4, most of the time the chokee takes 10 STUN in a Turn (assuming a very simple STR 10 and not bothering with any bonus or NND or such for the damage, assuming average 7 STUN rolled) and on a missed roll then 5 STUN in the Turn anyway, and that's minimum 1 STUN per TURN post-REC but more likely around 5 STUN in the Turn. That's 4 Turns if things go well to 0 STUN, and 8 Turns anyway. But it will happen.

 

Also, how often can one miss an Attack Roll - isn't the target basically at highly reduced DCV once grabbed?

 

I'm missing why it's so hard for a Normal?

I stand corrected, Steve notes that a choked/grabbed character should get full post-12 recovery. To me, that's illogical in a heroic game (I allow such things all the time in superheroic), I have no clue how a normal person can get any benefit of recovery when struggling actively (and if they are passive, they should be DCV 0 in seg 12 and any GM should completely waive an attack roll except possibly for seeing if one gets an 18 (I tend to do that, I like the 1/216 fumble chance)).

 

As the crowd says, this whole thing doesn't work.

 

I would also add that even if a person is involuntarily holding their breath (actually, ESPECIALLY if they are involuntarily holding their breath) they should NOT get a post-12 recovery, that's (IMHO) absurd.

[zornwil]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

I just recently rewatched the movie "Constantine" the other night and this thread reminded me of the scene of where the title character drowns the sister so she can recover her lost 'sight'. The circumstances are a bit more restrictive than what is being currently discussed here since the sister was already submerged in a bathtub full of water. When she was about out of breath and wanted to come up for air Constantine just holds down the upper part of her body. He has all the advantages at that point. And it 'seemed' real.

 

As far as the general grab and choke method being discussed here lets discuss a more common circumstance:

 

What if a grabbing character decided to push the grabbed character to the ground/wall/ceiling (some solid surface) and then use his mass to 'pin' the character in that position (in addition to the grab itself)? The target would now be effectively prone and should get a further 1/2 DCV penalty above and beyond the one for being grabbed which I believe DOES reduce hit location modifiers. This should give the grabber the advantage in the STR vs DEX example. However, the grabber's DCV would be pretty low at this point too probably.

 

HM

Wait, can you take a 1/2 of a 1/2 DCV penalty? I thought they didn't compound like that.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

Wait' date=' can you take a 1/2 of a 1/2 DCV penalty? I thought they didn't compound like that.[/quote']

 

Not sure. I couldn't find anything specific one way or the other.

 

Going back to the main topic...

 

It sounds like Steve made a ruling on the usefullness of STR that makes sure that a character can't grab and squeeze a character, maintain the squeeze on subsequent phases and still have a free 'attack-action' on those later phases. This part makes a lot of sense since 'attack-actions' really represent a character's main ability to concentrate in a phase.

 

The part that is counter intuitive is the forcing of the attacker to re-target the squeeze portion of the grab on subsequent phases if that's ALL he is doing.

 

I think this could be sensibly handwaved if the attacker's casual STR is higher than the grabbed character (how does he even wiggle in this situation).

 

The crux of issue is that 'common sense' tells us that a choke hold is a continuous attack. However, HERO game mechanics have already displayed a big favortism toward high STR characters by many other aspects of the rules. This might be a small attempt at balancing out that issue. In support of this theory I just verified in my copy of the Ultimate Brick that one of the listed brick-tricks is an NND squeeze attack and it is NOT bought as continuos (but it is not dependent on hit location either).

 

HM

[zornwil]

Re: Choking The Life Out Of Someone

 

Not sure. I couldn't find anything specific one way or the other.

 

Going back to the main topic...

 

It sounds like Steve made a ruling on the usefullness of STR that makes sure that a character can't grab and squeeze a character, maintain the squeeze on subsequent phases and still have a free 'attack-action' on those later phases. This part makes a lot of sense since 'attack-actions' really represent a character's main ability to concentrate in a phase.

 

The part that is counter intuitive is the forcing of the attacker to re-target the squeeze portion of the grab on subsequent phases if that's ALL he is doing.

 

I think this could be sensibly handwaved if the attacker's casual STR is higher than the grabbed character (how does he even wiggle in this situation).

 

The crux of issue is that 'common sense' tells us that a choke hold is a continuous attack. However, HERO game mechanics have already displayed a big favortism toward high STR characters by many other aspects of the rules. This might be a small attempt at balancing out that issue. In support of this theory I just verified in my copy of the Ultimate Brick that one of the listed brick-tricks is an NND squeeze attack and it is NOT bought as continuos (but it is not dependent on hit location either).

 

HM

The problem is, as RDU Neil cites, if high STR is a problem, THAT needs to be fixed, not meddling with little details. My goodness, that is the road to GURPS...