Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

[Thia Halmades]

Howdy.

 

I'm using a slotted Real Point cost for Wizards/Priests in a VPP system to handle magick in my campaign. Generally they're running at about -4 in disads (making a 30 pt. spell about 6 real points). Spell groups are organized in sets of 15; 15 or less is a cantrip, 30 is 1st level, 45 2nd, and so on. I want to include the Metamagick Feats from d20 to allow more flexibility within the magic system without having to reinvent the wheel. The easiest way I've seen to do it to have a slot consume more RP on a straight simple scale.

 

That scale, near as I can figure, is that each "step" of improvment from d20 equates to about 1/2 of the Real Points of the spell in question for each "level" in the d20 system. Let's start with Silent Spell as an example, a Feat that changes the cost of a spell by one slot. In d20, that means a 3rd level spell would become a 4th level spell.

 

So if, in HERO terms, you wanted to cast your spell as Silenced, rather than trying to reconfigure the cost, you'd simply take your Real Points, multiply by 1.5, and foom. New cost for the spell as Silenced. Maximize (max damage on all dice) costs 4 additional slots in d20, or a full +2 using this mechanic, so you'd multiply the Real Cost by 3.

 

For example, if a PC wants to cast Fireball - a 60 pt. spell - it'll cost about 12 Real Points. If he wants to Silence it, it'd cost 18 points, about the same as a 75 point spell (the next spell up the 15 point ladder I'm using, inspired by Killer Shrike). A 75 point spell is about 15 Real Points. Those would roughly equate in the VPP.

 

If you wanted to Maximize the spell, using the same example, it would cost 36 Real Points in the VPP, or the equivalent of a 180 point spell, but would deal maximum damage. This is a major leap ahead, but still makes sense to me. Max damage in HERO is a different creature entirely than in d20.

 

Without concerning myself about total exactness, does this system seem functional to anyone else? Would you, as a Wizard, make the sacrifice to Maximize a spell by consuming that many Real Points and seriously debilitating your options? Is it not expensive enough? Too costly?

 

For Sorcerors, who are using an EC/End Reserve model, I'd likely do the exact same thing, except multiply the END they use by the appropriate modifiers. So a 6 END spell would cost something completely different, but still generate a similar effect. This would also reflect (oddly) a Sorceror's ease of use of manipulating energy, but at a great cost to them, personally.

 

Thoughts are appreciated!

[Old Man]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

For Silenced spells you're looking for Invisible Power Effects vs Hearing (+1/4) p. 168 FREd. You can probably buy it as a Naked Advantage.

 

 

Maximized damage I'm not sure how to do. If you're looking to get a guaranteed amount of damage, then go with Standard Effect.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

I know that it's 1/4 (makes sense, as the disad is -1/4) I'm looking for a 'quick & dirty' way to handle it.

 

Never mind, my math is off. Should be 1.25, to make it 'match up' better. Then a Maximized spell would cost roughly double (2x Real) which I don't think is a good approximation. Bear in mind, I'm more than happy to go outside of canon if that's what it takes. Maximize is a variation on absolutes (do max damage) which is HERO looks at you funny when you touch it that way, but it isn't totally whack.

 

i.e., using a .25 multiplier, a 60 pt. spell worth 12 would cost 15 (multiplied by 1.25, or the cost to 'remove' Silence); a 75 point spell costs 15, a 90 point spell generally costs 18. 15 * 1.25 = 19, roughly, which is well in range for that level of spell. So Silent & Still (no gestures) cost the same. Good enough. The tricky part is adding in other adders, such as extending Areas of Effect, etc. (naked advantages).

 

I think I've got the math now, and it's consistent. Still a question of how to properly balance different effects (for example, I think Maximized should cost 3 or 4 times the base because it's that freakin' potent.) More things to ponder.

 

Thanks, Shadowpup.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

Personally when I pondered how to handle Metamagic feats a few years ago when I started my conversion from 3e to HERO, I considered and ultimately discarded the NPA route for several reasons, not all of which are fresh in my mind due to the length of time involved, but which included the following:

 

a) Legally you buy NPA's to apply to one Power. Even if a GM is feeling expansive and allows it to cover a base Power, it's still not broad enough to handle a smorgasborg of Spells built, potentially, using every Base Power in the book. If the GM just hand waves that and says, what the hell, apply it freely to all Spells, then the usefulness of of the NPA's will swing wildly based upon the number of Spells a character can cast. This gets particularly broken if the magic system in question utilizes Power Frameworks (especially VPP's).

 

NPA's cost character points, and further the number of character points will vary wildly based upon the number of Active Points involved with the character's Spells. Secondarily, as the character progresses their spellcasting, they must also progress their "Metamagic Feat" NPA's if they want them to maintain their relevancy. The combination of expenditures can make enhancing a character's spellcasting capabilities too painfully expensive to maintain it's footing as a viable means of character progression.

 

c) NPA's cost END to use by default, which is not appropriate to all Magic Systems.

 

 

All of which isnt to say that NPA's aren't appropriate to some Magic Systems -- in fact they could serve as the centerpiece of a style of Magic on their own. However, the drawbacks and peculiarities of NPA's disqualified them from serving as ideal options for modeling the Vancian fire-and-forget X/Day charge oriented D&D style of Magic. YMMV.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

That's why I was building a separate system, that adjusted Real Cost based on effect, based roughly on what d20 does. What are your thoughts on going that route? It's an extra step of math, but it's that, or consume an extra Charge (one full use of the spell) to represent any increase in power (which, technically, could also work, but would be insanely expensive).

 

Thoughts?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

Here was a suggestion I made to another poster with the beginnings of the idea of a NPA based magic System:

 

As far as having a sub requirement requiring a character to have a Familiarity with a specific Advantage before applying it to a Spell seems needlessly restrictive to me, but if you did decide to do it, consider keeping it at 1 pt per and treating it similarly to Transport Fams.

 

Alternately, you might consider using Naked Power Advantages instead, and allowing an NPA of this sort to be applied to ALL of a caster's Spells where appropriate (normally NPA's are bought to apply to a single Power). Thus a Magic User that know the "Armor Piercing" ability (or whatever properly non-gamist label you stick on it), has Armor Piercing as an NPA applicable to any appropriate Spell of up to X Active Points.

 

Under that scenario, Magic Users would take their Spells as generic constructs and apply NPA's to them at casting time instead of the more standard complex construction.

 

Ie....instead of a Magic User buying:

 

Fireball 2d6 RKA Explosion, Incant, Gesture, Full Phase, RSR: Fire Skill

Firebolt 2d6 RKA Armor Piercing, Incant, Gesture, Full Phase, RSR: Fire Skill

Firedart 2d6 RKA No Range Penalty, Incant, Gesture, Full Phase, RSR: Fire Skill

 

they would instead buy:

 

Firey Attack 2d6 RKA, Incant, Gesture, Full Phase, RSR: Fire Skill

 

Burst: Explosion on up to 60 Active Points, 1/2 DCV Concentration

Invasive: Armor Piercing on up to 60 Active Points, 1/2 DCV Concentration

Seeking: No Range Penalty on up to 60 Active Points, 1/2 DCV Concentration

 

The important thing to note is that the Magic System would be designed specifically around NPA's, rather than the NPA's being tacked on as an afterthought.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

Thanks for the input, I'll definately review the NPA rules and consider this.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

If you are interested in that sort of a Magic System I could take a stab at a formal write up. It seems like it would be interesting, and I don't have one quite like that so it would be good coverage.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

Actually, yeah, that would be awesome, KS.

 

Thanks!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

Maximized could be handled as an Advantage.

 

Lets run an example and find the cost:

 

A 1d6 attack Standard effect does 3 points of damage for 5 points. To do 6 points of damage would cost 10 points for 2d6.

 

So to do Max damage is exactly twice as expensive; thus a +1 Advantage. Easy.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

So the x2 multiplier I was using originally (as a variant NPA) would work, then. Niff!

[Old Man]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

Maximized could be handled as an Advantage.

 

Lets run an example and find the cost:

 

A 1d6 attack Standard effect does 3 points of damage for 5 points. To do 6 points of damage would cost 10 points for 2d6.

 

So to do Max damage is exactly twice as expensive; thus a +1 Advantage. Easy.

 

That is exactly what I was going to say but you said it better.

[CourtFool]

Oh great! Now I wish the llama would disappear again

 

On principle, I disagree with why you would want to do this. However, I am open to the possibility that not everyone share my views; you poor, misguided souls.

 

I generally make it a point not to disagree with Killer Shrike because his presentations are well thought out and he is obviously more educated than I. In this instance, I find his, and many other's suggestions, although excellent options, a bit too complicated. Why not simply handwave some appropriate point costs and be done with it?

 

Silenced - 5pts

Maximized - 20pts

 

Flavor and adjust to taste. I know this goes against the spirit of Hero or at least what I believe to be a large part of what makes Hero great; balance and consistant construction. My only argument is would you really gain from all the extra work and added complication.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

I would submit (for the sake of argument) that by manipulating the Real Cost directly you're accurately representing the difference between tossing a Maximized 60 AP vs. a Maximized 105 AP spell.

 

Big difference. Heck, if you were the GM I'd agree to a flat cost in a heartbeat.

[CourtFool]

You can stick your metamagic feats in your D20!

 

I would submit (for the sake of argument) that by manipulating the Real Cost directly you're accurately representing the difference between tossing a Maximized 60 AP vs. a Maximized 105 AP spell.

 

Big difference. Heck, if you were the GM I'd agree to a flat cost in a heartbeat.

 

I completely agree that there is a large difference between a Maximized 60 AP 'spell' vs. a Maximized 105 AP 'spell'. Given at least one of the suggestions presented (a +1 Naked Power Advantage) it would be exactly 45 points worth of difference. Unless my assumptions are completely off base, I doubt you will be charging 60-105 points to allow casters to maximize their spells. I am basing my assumption on further assumptions of roughly a 75+75 point campaign. Such a campaign would make a 60 point purchase nigh impossible.

 

Therefore, allow me to resubmit that while a flat cost may give an unfair advantage to characters who put more Active Points into their spells does it truly break your game. Does the extra effort to maintain balance pay off, in the long run for you? I do not feel either way is right or wrong but more importantly depends on you and the game that you want to run.

 

Personally, I am all for balance and fairness which may be why I can not decide on a magic system or systems. I have always felt that Thieves/Rogues/Scouts get the short end of the stick in the Fantasy genre. They are always poor fighters and made obsolete by the proper selection of spells. But then, what the hell does a llama know?

[Savinien]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

Dunno... There's no magic in Pirate Hero.

 

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

Personally I think flat cost abilities that scale are a bad idea, because they are not friendly to an important aspect of the HERO System -- which is it is runnable at any point level.

 

Flat cost abilities should be relatively flat in their functionality so that they are usable across power levels without their relative value / effect changing. You shouldnt have to refactor mechanical aspects of your design just because your PCs gained XP, or you decided it would be cool to run a "legendary" campaign in the same setting, or want to port an idea across genres / seperate games at different power levels.

 

 

At any rate, have a little faith. As soon as I get some free time Ill write up an NPA based magic system. I think you'll like it....

[CourtFool]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

Dunno... There's no magic in Pirate Hero.

 

And that is why I was going to run Pirate Hero.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

Here is a first pass at an NPA based Magic System:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/Metruvius.shtml

 

Im calling it Metruvius for now as a working title. If nothing better comes along that'll end up the final title but I'm not giving up hope on a better name yet.

 

That aside, the basic idea is there and seems workable. Ill start playing around with a sample character tomorrow and see how it graphs out and then tweak if something doesnt jive.

 

Check it out....

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

Sample character rough:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Fantasy/Thia%20Halamodavis.HTML

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

Another sample character:

http://www.killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Fantasy/Shapup%20Dao.HTML

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

And another:

http://www.killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Fantasy/Seaphul%20Kort.HTML

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

And one more:

http://www.killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Fantasy/Kallinius%20Vright.HTML

[CourtFool]

Thanks for making me feel inadequate, again

 

Great stuff...again...Killer Shrike. I hate you.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Metamagick Feats in HERO (my current idea)

 

Originally Posted by Demon Llama

Personally, I am all for balance and fairness which may be why I can not decide on a magic system or systems. I have always felt that Thieves/Rogues/Scouts get the short end of the stick in the Fantasy genre. They are always poor fighters and made obsolete by the proper selection of spells. But then, what the hell does a llama know?

 

I can actually address this directly; part of the gap you're seeing is between the standard canon of Fantasy, and my version of heroic fantasy. Among other things, Rogues will be getting every niffo Desolid trick in the book to represent their ability to not be in the wrong place at the wrong time; they are inherently lucky gits, even if it is luck through training. They'll have variations on Invisibility, and probably more Talents & Perqs than the other PCs.

 

Second, Rogues are skill monkeys, and as such can do things out of combat that no brick class would ever think of. In d20 terms, their eschewance of magic or "raw fighting potential" opens up a massive niche that needs filling. Ancillary to that, they have access to Deadly Blow in FH, and will have many "powers" based abilities, including the ability to find magical traps, which other characters do not receive unless they pay for the Rogue package.

 

Third, because of the design my package deals are being built on, there is an individuality to the classes themselves, beyond the normal 150 point buy. For example, if you want to use Arcane Magic, you must buy the Wizard package. It's expensive, which is why most people would only purchase it at first level, but the option does exist.

 

Lastly, and this I didn't explain, the campaign is built on 150 points, but has already been running for 3 years, so the PCs are going to end up around 250 points by the time all is said & done, and by that time they'll have 90 point limited VPPs for spells (including All Spells Must Have One Charge, Only Known Spells, Spells Must Be Prepared Ahead of Time, and VPP Recharges after 8 hours rest). All of those restrictions are both part & parcel of the d20 mold, but are also a direct reflection of how I'd do magic anyway, for this specific campaign. So there is a major gap between 1st level magic (30 active) and 5th level magic (90 active).

 

Does that clarify some things?