Worst comic book superfight ever

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I think it makes the difference between knowing whether 2 or 20 of course are on him, plus his quote is fairly clearly conjectural. He knows there are trains in Penn Station, he knows what's fallen on him is beyond his expectaiton, and he puts two and two together. But quantity and status of those trains is really unknown. On reflection, we can pretty much trust he's right that there's "trains" on him, but very hard to say what it means in weight or numbers.

 

I think it just means "it's an awful lot of weight"!

Is it just me or is there a train on top of Spidey in one of the panels on the scan in post #1219?

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Nobody's debating that it's a whole lotta weight' date=' [b']but we need to narrow it down a little finer than that[/b].

 

I might also point out that unless it's an inverted pyramid, the entire mass of the pile is not going to be balancing on one point at the bottom -- i.e., Spidey might be buried under it, but he doesn't have to lift *THE ENTIRE THING* to get out, he merely has to shift the parts that are directly on him to somewhere off of him.

No, we don't need to narrow it down like that because we can't. It's two-dimensional.

 

Not to mention that you're trying to use a pretty exacting notion of physics for a comic book.

 

This isn't about counting punches or measuring weights. It's about who Spidey can hurt and who else it takes to hurt who Spidey can hurt and who can hurt Firelord who has hurt Firelord.

 

Everything else is a distraction.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yes, you're right. I owed the discussion a more serious point rather than a random snipe. I apologise.

 

I guess this is my point: if the discussion were being handled in a calmer fashion, I think it would be a lot more enlightening on both sides. Instead, we have it becoming quite acrimonious, and I feel the point is being lost in many cases. I'm finding many good points being made. It's just a pity that they're being lost amidst vitriol and self-righteous mocking.

 

Not all of them, to be sure. And I don't feel like going through a laundry list. But I think it's that, rather than the argument itself, that is scaring people away. So I guess I'm just asking people to tone it down a little. Argue the points that really matter to you, not the ones that are in front of you. Does the # of punches thing really matter? Do snipes at Chuckg for perceived inconsistency in his ignores really matter? If they do, go ahead. If they don't, well, think about whether you really have to get into it. If you don't have to, then consider moving on to the next point. (Just so I can't be accused of telling people they can't post on something.)

 

As for my own input into the debate, which I will give and then move on to other topics: for me, the debate boils down to one issue. I'm on the 'fight was silly' side, but I do have to admit that Spider-Man has repeatedly shown the kind of strength necessary to do that.

 

HOWEVER, I don't like that. But really, that's a personal problem I have, not an objective one. It's mainly that, anyway. As stated before, Spidey has repeatedly failed to perform at those levels in cases where lives, including his own, were at risk. To me, just like Chuckg, this weakens the character. It makes him less believable to me, and less consistent. It makes me wonder what happened to the super-strength in those scenes. And when we see him out-smarting villains too tough for him to take on directly, it cheapens all that, too, because we know that if things went too tough, he could just pull out 'maximum Spider' and beat the tar outta 'em. And when he does lose? Well, if he loses without going to max power, he's getting robbed, right?

 

This, for me, sounds like bad writing. And so I'd rather ignore things like him KOing Rhino in four punches, or him taking down Firelord. Because without those appearances, Spidey looks to me like a much cooler character.

 

Chuckg seems to be making the argument that they should be ignored for the sake of consistency. I'm not making that argument, though it could be made (but I can see why people reject it). My argument is that Spidey is not a character I find interesting if he has those incredible powers. Not because he's 'too powerful' but because he's so inconsistent with his power level that... well, it gets close to that 'hysterical paralysis' being talked about earlier.

 

And I do realise that consistency is a huge problem in comics. I do realise that writers will have their favorite character win regardless. I do realise that Spidey's the hero, so he'll emerge triumphant. But I do believe that the above are examples of bad writing.

 

And if it doesn't make for a good story, and it cheapens the iconic character being presented, I say 'great fight, great buildup, stupid ending.'

Enforcer84 and Snake Ghandi made a similar argument, and I think that's not "just" a personal preference, that is really a significant and meaningful argument (ChuckG has also alluded to it if not been explicit, but it's just been less of a central thrust in his arguments). I don't happen to exactly agree, but I agree to the extent that there's a fine line to tread with the Spiderman character. I see this situation, again to repeat but I don't know how many of these posts you've read, as down his alley against the backdrop of Firelord's dropping in for pizza and seeing a scrawny, unknown mutant buzz around him annoyingly. I do agree that the story would be stronger if either Spiderman's major or first meaningful attack were more cleverly staged or if Firelord's response/reasoning were better directly explained (doesn't have to be a narrator's box, of course, but some exposition on his behalf in the beginning of the end). But I don't think the beatdown goes beyond the meaning of Spiderman, as it were.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Is it just me or is there a train on top of Spidey in one of the panels on the scan in post #1219?

Yeah, I do think there's probably at least 2 in that Spiderman has the sense to figure it out to a level, just don't know if it's 2 or 20.

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So which was it, Thor or Superman?

 

And was his reasoning, out of curiousity, related to their iconic values or number-crunching?

Let me see if I can find the thread where it happened.

 

Here we go. link

 

Mr Busiek's first post is at the bottom of the page, and he debates the point for a few pages.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Oh, come on, you link to a Busiek jumps in post and it has to be one of the ones where he was *sane*? You meanie. Link 'em to one of the *funny* ones...

 

... OK, folks, I kid. No frothing at the mouth actually happened. Much.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

ChuckG, btw, if you're interested http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=932770#post932770 re an earlier brief exchange we had. Don't want to derail this one.

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Oh, come on, you link to a Busiek jumps in post and it has to be one of the ones where he was *sane*? You meanie. Link 'em to one of the *funny* ones...

 

... OK, folks, I kid. No frothing at the mouth actually happened. Much.

Though through long study we have determined that Kurt, much like Candyman or Beetlejuice, can often times be summoned by speaking his name 3 times.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Let me see if I can find the thread where it happened.

 

Here we go. link

 

Mr Busiek's first post is at the bottom of the page, and he debates the point for a few pages.

Thanks!

 

I'm still going through it as I type this. ChuckG, this isn't to debate continuity (for all I know you might agree, we didn't really close the loop on the matter of degree as it was a tangent), but I like Busiek's post:

 

"But ultimately, I don't really care. Having Superman and Aquaman meet created continuity problems. Deciding Bucky was dead and Cap had been in suspended animation since before the end of WWII created continuity problems. But I think the advantages of those choices outweighed the problems.

 

Potentially creating continuity problems should not be a reason not to do something. So many things have the potential to create continuity problems, but continuity is the frosting, not the cake. And I say that as someone who likes continuity a lot. And frosting, for that matter."

 

Like I said, i'm not suggesting you feel otherwise, I just think this better represents my thoughts on continuity then I had said earlier. Of course, Busiek is a professional writer so there you go (I mean in terms of ability to express ideas, not that it makes him correct)!

 

Snake Ghandi, I'm not sure, though, what he agreed with you on. Was it the issue that Mjolnir would likely not be considered magical in terms of when used as a striking device? I don't see him weigh in either way as to who would win/who is more powerful (which was probably a pretty sensible way to handle it).

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Hey, if you're going to retcon something *intelligently*, then by all means retcon away, if you can. Continuity is a framework, not a straight jacket.

 

The key word, however, is 'intelligently'.

 

To tie specifically back into SM-vs-FL, these two things are *not* "intelligent" plotting:

 

a) hero arbitrarily pulls vast power boost out of his ***

villain just stands there like a dumb mook

 

AAMOF, it's plotting via the line of absolute least resistance. It's what is spelled L-A-Z-Y W-R-I-T-I-N-G.

 

Is part of why I hate it so.

[gewing]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Spiderman vs. Wolverine.

 

Granted, Wolverine is the only Marvel character that can come close to the popularity of Spidey, but come on...

 

Spidey had Wolvey up against a gravestone, and was pummeling him in the face with 'blur effect' super-pissed punches... breaking the gravestone I might add.

 

While this is happening, Wolvey sneaks his hand up under Spidey's chin, "Snikt Bub", using only the outside 2 claws to prove he could have shanked Spidey right through the brain.

 

So ok, Adacrapmium Skeleton [maybe Spidey's hand should have broken?] and healing factor [Healing 12 BOD/Turn I imagine...], but come on... Wolvey's brains would have been mush jingling around back and forth inside that skull of his... and Spidey's Sense should have alerted him to the attack!

 

My guess is that it was the only way they could see fit to end the fight between these two characters without one of them getting killed and letting them both look 'tough' still...

\

 

I don't know if I read that one, GOOD POINT

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Snake Ghandi' date=' I'm not sure, though, what he agreed with you on. Was it the issue that Mjolnir would likely not be considered magical in terms of when used as a striking device? I don't see him weigh in either way as to who would win/who is more powerful (which was probably a pretty sensible way to handle it).[/quote']Yep, that was the issue. There where folks claiming one shot with Mjolnir should turn Clark to paste, and I don't agree with that. It's just cool to have someone like Kurt Busiek agree with me.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Hey, if you're going to retcon something *intelligently*, then by all means retcon away, if you can. Continuity is a framework, not a straight jacket.

 

The key word, however, is 'intelligently'.

 

To tie specifically back into SM-vs-FL, these two things are *not* "intelligent" plotting:

 

a) hero arbitrarily pulls vast power boost out of his ***

villain just stands there like a dumb mook

 

AAMOF, it's plotting via the line of absolute least resistance. It's what is spelled L-A-Z-Y W-R-I-T-I-N-G.

 

Is part of why I hate it so.

I know, I think you've said it plenty.

 

So I won't bother repeating my comments.

 

PS - and just to be clear, I wasn't bringing it up in this context

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

\

 

I don't know if I read that one, GOOD POINT

I don't think so. Brains don't go mush in super hard skulls in mainstream comics.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

\

 

I don't know if I read that one, GOOD POINT

 

Actually, wouldn't Spidey Sense _not_ go off if he's not actually in danger?

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Enforcer84 and Snake Ghandi made a similar argument' date=' and I think that's not "just" a personal preference, that is really a significant and meaningful argument (ChuckG has also alluded to it if not been explicit, but it's just been less of a central thrust in his arguments). I don't happen to exactly agree, but I agree to the extent that there's a fine line to tread with the Spiderman character. I see this situation, again to repeat but I don't know how many of these posts you've read, as down his alley against the backdrop of Firelord's dropping in for pizza and seeing a scrawny, unknown mutant buzz around him annoyingly. I do agree that the story would be stronger if either Spiderman's major or first meaningful attack were more cleverly staged or if Firelord's response/reasoning were better directly explained (doesn't have to be a narrator's box, of course, but some exposition on his behalf in the beginning of the end). But I don't think the beatdown goes beyond the meaning of Spiderman, as it were.[/quote'] I understand that argument a little better as it's a matter of taste. I think the problem for me is that I've read enough Spidey over the long haul to have a less restricted notion about what the character was about. I started reading comics in 1975 and there were plenty of reprints of the older stuff to boot. I never got the sense that Spidey was ever meant to be only the top end of the "Street" Supers.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Actually' date=' wouldn't Spidey Sense _not_ go off if he's not actually in danger?[/quote']

How would Spiderman's senses know this, on this level? I never got the sense they were supernatural - they merely appreciate the nuances of events around him extremely well. As such, all his spider sense should know would be "incoming hand under" and then the reflex of "pull back now!" would go off.

 

Which, as we think about it, is kind of interesting in a way at least I had not really thought before...any reasonable sudden movement from a powerful enough character is likely to force Spiderman to jump back.

 

Of course there's one other alternative - Wolverine's reflexes could be faster than Spiderman's spider sense.

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Let me see if I can find the thread where it happened.

 

Here we go. link

 

Mr Busiek's first post is at the bottom of the page, and he debates the point for a few pages.

After reading that, I guess I really don't get Superman's powers (or Busiek's interpretation of them, anyway). He seems to be saying that Superman is a Thor/Hulk-level brick *and additionally* is invulnerable to almost everything except magic. Wouldn't that make him far more powerful than Thor and the Hulk? Or did I miss something?

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Let me see if I can find the thread where it happened.

 

Here we go. link

 

Mr Busiek's first post is at the bottom of the page, and he debates the point for a few pages.

Wow, I don't really have a problem with the notion that Supes can withstand a blow from Mjolnir much as the Hulk or Gladiator can.

 

But Busiek is on drugs when he talks about the "properties" of Mjolnir.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I understand that argument a little better as it's a matter of taste. I think the problem for me is that I've read enough Spidey over the long haul to have a less restricted notion about what the character was about. I started reading comics in 1975 and there were plenty of reprints of the older stuff to boot. I never got the sense that Spidey was ever meant to be only the top end of the "Street" Supers.

Yes, I agree with you this, and I thnk that's what the body of work says, myself. But I think to be fair the body of work has also spent a lot of time sending a signal that he is much like Batman in being "human" in essence, and as such I can see the notion that the stories that go above this are the problem/anomaly, even if they occur frequently. Don't agree, as I said, but I understand it and am sympathetic to it.

 

However, in another part, I also don't agree with the limitation of the "human" hero as much as many others do in general. I am NOT arguing in favor of "Batgod" but I DO believe that Batman (or Daredevil) can rise up many ranks from their station reasonably well and that in fact that's the purpose of their characters - to show that the humble human can stand up to anything and everything.

 

Along these lines, I do buy the argument that Spiderman should not be able to normally beat up Firelord or another demi-god...the key word being "normally." If Firelord came screaming from above with powers all ablaze, I'd call BS as well on this encounter's resolution. But he didn't. He just wanted a simple piece of pizza and that fly kept annoying him.

 

I do think the sequence leaves too much in question as to Firelord's hesitation. I would like to have seen him throwing punches into the air again and again (a single panel of blurred strikes), all missing Spiderman, to help demonstrate he wasn't simply standing there. Or something (better written than this) such as "You can sting me all you want, no matter how tired I am I can just strike you down, you annoying gnat!"

 

But none of that disqualifies this as "one of the worst". And I have to say that I really love the nuance of the pizza thing. It's tremendously meaningful and tremendously personal.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

After reading that' date=' I guess I really don't get Superman's powers (or Busiek's interpretation of them, anyway). He seems to be saying that Superman is a Thor/Hulk-level brick *and additionally* is invulnerable to almost everything except magic. Wouldn't that make him far more powerful than Thor and the Hulk? Or did I miss something?[/quote']

Than Hulk, you bet he is (in my view). Thor is a bit different - I think Thor is more vulnerable in general, but Thor can dish out magical attacks atop his physical one, giving him a different edge.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Wow, I don't really have a problem with the notion that Supes can withstand a blow from Mjolnir much as the Hulk or Gladiator can.

 

But Busiek is on drugs when he talks about the "properties" of Mjolnir.

What do you mean?

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yes, I agree with you this, and I thnk that's what the body of work says, myself. But I think to be fair the body of work has also spent a lot of time sending a signal that he is much like Batman in being "human" in essence, and as such I can see the notion that the stories that go above this are the problem/anomaly, even if they occur frequently. Don't agree, as I said, but I understand it and am sympathetic to it.

 

However, in another part, I also don't agree with the limitation of the "human" hero as much as many others do in general. I am NOT arguing in favor of "Batgod" but I DO believe that Batman (or Daredevil) can rise up many ranks from their station reasonably well and that in fact that's the purpose of their characters - to show that the humble human can stand up to anything and everything.

 

Along these lines, I do buy the argument that Spiderman should not be able to normally beat up Firelord or another demi-god...the key word being "normally." If Firelord came screaming from above with powers all ablaze, I'd call BS as well on this encounter's resolution. But he didn't. He just wanted a simple piece of pizza and that fly kept annoying him.

 

I do think the sequence leaves too much in question as to Firelord's hesitation. I would like to have seen him throwing punches into the air again and again (a single panel of blurred strikes), all missing Spiderman, to help demonstrate he wasn't simply standing there. Or something (better written than this) such as "You can sting me all you want, no matter how tired I am I can just strike you down, you annoying gnat!"

 

But none of that disqualifies this as "one of the worst". And I have to say that I really love the nuance of the pizza thing. It's tremendously meaningful and tremendously personal.

I hadn't thought about the pizza thing but it occurs to me now that Chuckg may have the answer he was looking for.

 

Firelord was suffering from low blood sugar.

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So if Superman sans invulnerability is akin to Thor, what edge does the invulnerability give him?

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

What do you mean?

He was downplaying the story of the special creation of Mjolnir, the magical properties of Uru, even the mechanical advantage of Thor hitting with an indestructible hammer. Basically, he was saying Thor's fist hits as hard as Thor's hammer as far as I read.

 

If he corrected himself later, cool. But I lost patience with his explanations as I've read old Thor comics too.