Worst comic book superfight ever

[Starlord]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Of course' date=' it may be that Mjolnir has a magical attack inherent in its physical strikes. I'm not trying to weigh in on that specifically. But the logic seems fine to me. If people can produce data from the comics that shows that when Thor hits something it necessarily bypasses normal defenses, then fine, I would say Busiek's wrong. If they can't, I'd say he's right.[/quote']

 

I don't know about bypassing normal defenses, but I've seen many, many fights where it seems clear that Thor has charged up his hammer with various energies as he is swinging it or throwing it.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yes, it can do that. But it doesn't normally.

 

Champions game thought -- Thor can charge his hammer with mystic energy to boost its damage, but doing so costs him END. Just bashing with the hammer as a big blunt object, no END beyond his normal STR usage.

 

So, most of the time, Thor saves himself the juice, because most of the time, he doesn't need to boost himself to KTFO whatever he's whaling on. He is Thor, after all.

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I think we're just confused somehow. I agree with ChuckG's statement. And to add on, Hulk would also be going "AAARGH, blonde guy hit Hulk with pain!" IF Mjolnir is all charged up (if not, Hulk would say "Puny blonde man sting Hulk with hammer! Hulk get mad!")

 

(You can see my Hulk-fu is weak...)

You seem to be saying that hitting Superman with magic lightning is the same as hitting the Hulk with magic lightning.

 

Chuckg seems to be saying that hitting Superman with magic lightning is closer to hitting a normal man with magic lightning.

 

Correct?

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I realize this is outside comics, but having played a lot with supernaturally-based energy and directly supernatural attacks, I didn't find Busiek's basic contention (regardless of the details of Mjolnir) at all a contrivance. And in terms of comis themselves, I also think it's true in general:

 

Magically created weapon <> magical attack when weapon hits

 

The magically created weapon MAY have a magical attack when it hits, but that's a separate issue.

 

Of course, it may be that Mjolnir has a magical attack inherent in its physical strikes. I'm not trying to weigh in on that specifically. But the logic seems fine to me. If people can produce data from the comics that shows that when Thor hits something it necessarily bypasses normal defenses, then fine, I would say Busiek's wrong. If they can't, I'd say he's right.

Thor can hit harder with Mjolnir because of

 

1) Physics behind the swing.

2) The Hammer is tough enough to not be destroyed by a Thor swing so Thor gets the advantage of the Physics behind the swing.

3) The Uru is enchanted to increase the physical damage caused by the hammer.

 

Busiek accepts 1 & 2 but from what I've read he discounts number 3 and that's where I have a problem with him.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I don't know about bypassing normal defenses' date=' but I've seen many, many fights where it seems clear that Thor has charged up his hammer with various energies as he is swinging it or throwing it.[/quote']

That I understand, but that's IF he charges it up, right? So if he doesn't, it's "just" blunt force. That's my contention, anyway.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yes, it can do that. But it doesn't normally.

 

Champions game thought -- Thor can charge his hammer with mystic energy to boost its damage, but doing so costs him END. Just bashing with the hammer as a big blunt object, no END beyond his normal STR usage.

 

So, most of the time, Thor saves himself the juice, because most of the time, he doesn't need to boost himself to KTFO whatever he's whaling on. He is Thor, after all.

Exactly what I was trying to say earlier, yes.

 

But I'm mainly looking to see if people can validate it based on their knowledge of Thor - which I take it you are (as well as the implications of Jeff's comments).

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Thor can hit harder with Mjolnir because of

 

1) Physics behind the swing.

2) The Hammer is tough enough to not be destroyed by a Thor swing so Thor gets the advantage of the Physics behind the swing.

3) The Uru is enchanted to increase the physical damage caused by the hammer.

 

Busiek accepts 1 & 2 but from what I've read he discounts number 3 and that's where I have a problem with him.

Rather nuanced re #3 IMHO. It is enchanted, yes, but it's enchanted so that it hits harder/causes more damage, not so that it causes a specific supernatural blast, if you will. Agree, disagree?

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

You seem to be saying that hitting Superman with magic lightning is the same as hitting the Hulk with magic lightning.

 

Chuckg seems to be saying that hitting Superman with magic lightning is closer to hitting a normal man with magic lightning.

 

Correct?

I think BOTH are true. Hitting a normal man, Hulk, and Superman with magic lightning is all the same. Hulk and Superman are both "normal" (let's say give or take here) in regards to magic. They have no magical resistance. On the other hand, Thor seems to have some, depending on the magic (e.g., Loki can fool him easily with a spell, but he can probably withstand a Dr. Strange magical energy blast, I think - can't claim that's entirely true as I haven't read much Thor at all).

[Starlord]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I think BOTH are true. Hitting a normal man' date=' Hulk, and Superman with magic lightning is all the same. Hulk and Superman are both "normal" (let's say give or take here) in regards to magic. They have no magical resistance. On the other hand, Thor seems to have some, depending on the magic (e.g., Loki can fool him easily with a spell, but he can probably withstand a Dr. Strange magical energy blast, I think - can't claim that's entirely true as I haven't read much Thor at all).[/quote']

 

Thor seems extremely resistant to non-Asgardian magic if I know my Thor correctly. Not to mention I've seen him resist conventional (ie. Psionic) mind affects repeatedly, but as you say Loki has tricked him and he's fallen victim to the Enchantress's mind control and such.

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I think BOTH are true. Hitting a normal man' date=' Hulk, and Superman with magic lightning is all the same. Hulk and Superman are both "normal" (let's say give or take here) in regards to magic. They have no magical resistance.[/quote']

Sorry, hitting the Hulk with lightning, regardless of its origin, is not even remotely the same as hitting a normal person with lightning. That's my whole point.

[CBikle]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Been away for awhile.

 

Did that whole Spider Man vs. Firelord thing get resolved ?

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

No, but it seems to have kinda withered away.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

And there was much rejoicing.

[CBikle]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

No' date=' but it seems to have kinda withered away.[/quote']

 

So, you're conceding ?

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So' date=' you're conceding ?[/quote']

 

... damn, cancel the rejoicing then.

 

No, I'm not conceding. Oh, and BTW, the "Can't Leave Well Enough Alone Award", with swords and diamonds, is hereby awarded to CBikle.

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Spider-Man totally pwns Firelord! LOLOLOL!!11

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Sorry' date=' hitting the Hulk with lightning, regardless of its origin, is not even remotely the same as hitting a normal person with lightning. That's my whole point.[/quote']

Not magical lightning, I disagree here. What reistance does Hulk have to magic??? When has he resisted a magic spell?

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

... damn, cancel the rejoicing then.

 

No, I'm not conceding. Oh, and BTW, the "Can't Leave Well Enough Alone Award", with swords and diamonds, is hereby awarded to CBikle.

Yeah.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Spider-Man totally pwns Firelord! LOLOLOL!!11

Yeah, well, Wolverine r0xx0rz!!!!!! pwns BOTH their SAs, d00d!

[Catacomb]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Spider-Man totally pwns Firelord! LOLOLOL!!11

 

 

OMGWTF?1?1?1 No joon00b Firelord wud totalee rock teh Spiderwuss

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Not magical lightning' date=' I disagree here. What reistance does Hulk have to magic??? When has he resisted a magic spell?[/quote']

His resistance to lightning bolts of any kind is being a gigantic walking pile of superstrong meat that can take blasts from tanks shells and barely flinch. Doesn't matter whether the lightning is magic or not - the Hulk doesn't crumple like a normal person would.

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

OMGWTFLOLOL!!! Wovlerin adn SpiderDork are teh superheros, like Super thankx 4 asking LOLOLOL GAY!!!!1

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

His resistance to lightning bolts of any kind is being a gigantic walking pile of superstrong meat that can take blasts from tanks shells and barely flinch. Doesn't matter whether the lightning is magic or not - the Hulk doesn't crumple like a normal person would.

Shrug, don't agree. As I recall, wasn't he susceptible to Valkyrie? But I can barely remember those weird Defender comics except tha the concept was as interesting as it was odd (Dr. Strange, Valkyrie, Hulk...I mean WTF?...and Valkyrie being one of the first transgendered characters)

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Shrug' date=' don't agree. As I recall, wasn't he susceptible to Valkyrie?[/quote']

We're missing the point by talking about lightning specifically. The point is, if the Hulk gets smacked by an attack that does damage, said damage must contend with his uber-physique. It doesn't matter whether the attack is magical or not. Whether it's Thor shooting a magic blast from his hammer or Iron Man shooting a repulsor ray, they both must overcome the Hulk's ridiculous toughness and stamina. There's no "special case" when the Hulk is facing magic.

 

The same goes for a normal person, as well - there's no "special case" for magic. However a normal person doesn't have the Hulk's physique, so he'll go down on the first shot, magic or not. See the difference? (I hope I don't sound snippy, but I would have thought this was self-evident.)

 

But I can barely remember those weird Defender comics except tha the concept was as interesting as it was odd (Dr. Strange, Valkyrie, Hulk...I mean WTF?...and Valkyrie being one of the first transgendered characters)

The Defenders were a weird team. I never got into them, but it probably had more to do with the book's art than anything else.

 

Valkyrie was transgendered?

[SKJAM!]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I'll bite Have you seen the Bob Ingersoll column "The Law is a ***"? He's a comics loving lawyer' date=' and every column deals with some legality as portrayed in the comics. This reminds me of some of his writngs on Daredevil. DD, being a lawyer, is subject to the greatest, and most merciless scrutiny. Really interesting stuff, and funnier than hell. It looks like he quit writng them a couple years ago, but the articles are archived online.[/quote']

 

Yes, I used to collect Comic Buyer's Guide back when he was first writing them. Adrian Chase, the late 80s Vigilante, was another favorite target, and current Manhunter's spiritual ancestor.