Worst comic book superfight ever

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Note that if we went with that approach' date=' Superman would logically have died on the first hit, which means there's no way to write this story *at all*.[/quote']

But Busiek argued that's not the case - that Supes is an uber-brick regardless, no more "vulnerable to magic" than the Hulk or Gladiator.

 

Anyway. I'm not sure anymore that Busiek has thought it all through.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Eh? Thought Busiek was saying that Supes was no more vulnerable to *Mjolnir in default bashing mode* than the Hulk or Gladiator would be. 'Cause Mjolnir in default bashing mode, not actually using magic to amplify the blow, merely the fact that it's a big !#%!%!!%ing indestructibilium club.

 

If Thor switched Mjolnir over to "fire mystic lightning" mode or somesuch, Supes should be going 'aggggh, my rapidly being electrocuted internal organs!'

[Catacomb]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Note, one of the examples where Wolvie 'went down easy' was while he was in a full-on raving berserker psycho fit.(*) (FF vs. X-Men #2)

 

So it doesn't *always* work like that. Sometimes, the instances in question are merely the Power Fanboy channelling through the writer to give Wolvie a win when, reasonably speaking, there's no way he should have stayed upright. (Such as, oh, "Wolverine vs. Spider-Man")

 

 

 

 

 

(*) Did you ever wonder /why/ the Thing was KO'ing Wolvie? Hint: had something to do with Logan trying to carve Reed Richards into rubber bands. Logan's not usually up for murdering FF members when he's *calm*, and he was *literally* foaming at the mouth during this sequence.

 

 

Crossovers never count, I don't care if they are in company or out, so much crap is pulled out for them its ridiculous. Wolverine damn sure should never have been able to hang with Lobo who is basically a superman power level version of himself, but he did. Why? Special circumstances. Also by crossovers I don't mean Spidey making an appearance in a book I mean crap like X-Men/Avengers, X-Men/FF4 etc. the stuff is almost written and used in a vacuum, which is why I don't read most contrived crossovers.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> Crossovers never count, I don't care if they are in company or out, so much

> crap is pulled out for them its ridiculous.

 

The "Marvel vs. DC" crossover you refer to I agree with -- especially since they admitted that the results were determined not by actually using characterization, but purely by fan voting. It was a popularity contest, nothing more, and none of the crap from it counts.

 

FF vs. X-MEN, otoh...

 

> Wolverine damn sure should never have been able to hang with Lobo who is

> basically a superman power level version of himself, but he did. Why?

> Special circumstances. Also by crossovers I don't mean Spidey making an

> appearance in a book I mean crap like X-Men/Avengers, X-Men/FF4 etc.

> the stuff is almost written and used in a vacuum, which is why I don't read

> most contrived crossovers.

 

Explain to me how X-MEN VS. FANTASTIC FOUR would have been any different if it had simply been the FF guest-starring in four UNCANNY X-MEN issues.

 

Let us say, for example, that UNCANNY X-MEN #umptysquat through umptysquat+3 is a four-parter arc, in the regular UNCANNY title, that has the Fantastic Four guest-starring.

 

And let us say that in this hypothetical four-part arc, the exact same events as X-MEN/FF #1-4 occur -- word for word, panel for panel, page for page.

 

Does it suddenly become all better now?

 

Cross-company crossovers are one thing. *IN*-company crossovers are merely a phenomenon known as 'guest starring', and if we outlawed all of that, fug, we just threw the majority of all comicdom out of canon. Which is very silly.

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Eh? Thought Busiek was saying that Supes was no more vulnerable to *Mjolnir in default bashing mode* than the Hulk or Gladiator would be. 'Cause Mjolnir in default bashing mode, not actually using magic to amplify the blow, merely the fact that it's a big !#%!%!!%ing indestructibilium club.

 

If Thor switched Mjolnir over to "fire mystic lightning" mode or somesuch, Supes should be going 'aggggh, my rapidly being electrocuted internal organs!'

Can I get your thoughts on my earlier post? Because you seem to have a different take than zornwil and I'm legitimately confused about the whole thing.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Oh, btw, fun fact -- who wrote FANTASTIC FOUR vs. X-MEN (we've been getting the title wrong) limited series?

 

Hint -- the same guy who, at that time, was writing the regular UNCANNY X-MEN title.

 

Who was the *editor* for FF vs. X-MEN?

 

Hint -- the same lady who, at that time, was the editor for the UNCANNY X-MEN title (and the other X-books).

 

So, your thesis of Wolvie getting jobbed out by Marvel editorial or pro-FF writers? Not hardly, bub. The same crew what did that storyline was doing the regular Xbooks of that era. Heck, it pretty much *WAS* a four-issue UNCANNY arc with the FF guest-starring.

 

(I anticipate with amusement any attempt at explaining why Chris Claremont and Ann Nocenti allegedly didn't know how to properly write Wolverine circa 1987.)

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Can I get your thoughts on my earlier post? Because you seem to have a different take than zornwil and I'm legitimately confused about the whole thing.

 

My thoughts are that the vast majority of Superman's PD and ED are bought 'Not vs. Magical Spells Or Energies', as opposed to being bought with 'Not vs. Anything Related To Magic Whatsoever In Any Way', a far more crippling disad.

 

I.e. -- a magic weapon only bypasses Superman's defenses if it's "magic" in the sense of "specifically charged up with magic energies of doom", and not if it's merely magic in the sense of "it's magically strong and tough".

 

It's sometimes hard to split that hair, yes, but this is why DM calls were invented. Or in the case of comics, writer calls.

[Catacomb]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Oh, btw, fun fact -- who wrote FANTASTIC FOUR vs. X-MEN (we've been getting the title wrong) limited series?

 

Hint -- the same guy who, at that time, was writing the regular UNCANNY X-MEN title.

 

Who was the *editor* for FF vs. X-MEN?

 

Hint -- the same lady who, at that time, was the editor for the UNCANNY X-MEN title (and the other X-books).

 

So, your thesis of Wolvie getting jobbed out by Marvel editorial or pro-FF writers? Not hardly, bub. The same crew what did that storyline was doing the regular Xbooks of that era. Heck, it pretty much *WAS* a four-issue UNCANNY arc with the FF guest-starring.

 

 

Where...did...I ever say pro FF? I didn't, the crossovers exist in their own little bubbles, and they always have, that's my point. There is a more liberal use of powers, and a different standard used, but without a doubt there is always a fluctuation beyond the 'norm' of most characters.

 

 

Bub...

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

My thoughts are that the vast majority of Superman's PD and ED are bought 'Not vs. Magical Spells Or Energies'' date=' as opposed to being bought with 'Not vs. Anything Related To Magic Whatsoever In Any Way', a far more crippling disad.[/quote']

So you agree with (A) more than ( - that when Supes gets hit with a magic attack (defined however you like) his defenses are closer to a normal person?

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yes, that is pretty much what I said, with the caveat that 'magic attack' means 'magical spell or energy blast', and not 'any mundane bashing attack that happens to come via a magical creature or object'.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Note that if we went with that approach, Superman would logically have died on the first hit, which means there's no way to write this story *at all*.

 

I can forgive a contrivance like this if a) there's an unavoidable necessity for it because nothing less can save the plot from *poofing* into total nonexistence in act one and the writer puts some actual work into making it sound intelligent.

 

Now if Busiek did it just to make Thor job 'cause he's a raving Superman fanboy, that would be different. But he didn't. He did it because otherwise there's no way to write an entertaining Thor/Superman fight *at all*(1), 'cause Superman going from "unhurt" to "strawberry jam" on the first blow is entertaining to neither Thor fans nor Superman fans.

 

Besides, now that Thor knows about Supes' weakness, the rematch will have him juggling Clark's head like a hacky-sack, so what's to complain?

I don't think Supes would be turned into strawberry jam from a magic blast or a magic hammer that does more damage due to its enchantment (Mjolnir) so I don't see the need for such a contrivance.

 

(1) If somebody wants to bring in A Certain Other Discussion' date=' let me remind them that we suggested several ways that the Spidey/Firelord fight could still be drawn-out, entertaining, and yet *not* end with Spidey going SSJ3 and punking Firelord like a mook. So don't.[/quote'] What's with all the commands?

 

You're not the boss of me.

 

Frankly, I think Spidey's success over Firelord is much less contrived than Busiek's explanation of how Mjolnir works against Superman.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Where...did...I ever say pro FF? I didn't' date=' the crossovers exist in their own little bubbles, and they always have, that's my point. There is a more liberal use of powers, and a different standard used, but without a doubt there is always a fluctuation beyond the 'norm' of most characters.[/quote']

 

So, despite having been written by the same guy who wrote Wolverine's regular title of the time, and edited by the same lady who edited Wolverine's regular title of the time, and for that matter having been nothing more than a four-issue run of UNCANNY X-MEN (seeing as how it had the entire same creative staff with the possible exception of the art people!) with the FF guest-starring, it's still magically all different somehow?

 

I don't even begin to get it.

 

In-company crossovers are nothing more than normal guest-starring with different packaging on the cover so the company can sales-pitch it. But the comics themselves? It's just guest-starring. Which counts.

[Catacomb]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Frankly, I think Spidey's success over Firelord is much less contrived than Busiek's explanation of how Mjolnir works against Superman.

 

 

No Doug, you are wrong, if the writiers write something one time in an X-over bubble it's holy doctrine and need no contrivance.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

You know, snide crap like that really isn't helping.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Oh, btw, fun fact -- who wrote FANTASTIC FOUR vs. X-MEN (we've been getting the title wrong) limited series?

 

Hint -- the same guy who, at that time, was writing the regular UNCANNY X-MEN title.

 

Who was the *editor* for FF vs. X-MEN?

 

Hint -- the same lady who, at that time, was the editor for the UNCANNY X-MEN title (and the other X-books).

 

So, your thesis of Wolvie getting jobbed out by Marvel editorial or pro-FF writers? Not hardly, bub. The same crew what did that storyline was doing the regular Xbooks of that era. Heck, it pretty much *WAS* a four-issue UNCANNY arc with the FF guest-starring.

 

(I anticipate with amusement any attempt at explaining why Chris Claremont and Ann Nocenti allegedly didn't know how to properly write Wolverine circa 1987.)

Claremont doesn't know how to write much of anything properly. "His" writing was at its best when he teamed with Byrne and they had a powerful editor named Jim Shooter telling them both no when they got really silly. All of that is IMO of course.

 

But I've always enjoyed Wolverine getting whipped by the Thing and always will.

[Catacomb]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So, despite having been written by the same guy who wrote Wolverine's regular title of the time, and edited by the same lady who edited Wolverine's regular title of the time, and for that matter having been nothing more than a four-issue run of UNCANNY X-MEN (seeing as how it had the entire same creative staff with the possible exception of the art people!) with the FF guest-starring, it's still magically all different somehow?

 

I don't even begin to get it.

 

In-company crossovers are nothing more than normal guest-starring with different packaging on the cover so the company can sales-pitch it. But the comics themselves? It's just guest-starring. Which counts.

 

There is a double standard there, there has to be, otherwise X-Men/Avengers would have been about 4 panels, but disagree all you want. You're right, there doesn't have to be a balance in order to make a pre-determined number of X-over issues occur, there need be no fudging of powers because we all know that every super team and indavidual is created =, with just the perfect amount of balance to last the obligatory 4 issue release.

 

That's my point, the bubble. Wouldn't have been a very good FF/X-Men crossover had Wolvie just diced Reed into shish-ka-bob now would it? No, so let's Deus ex Machina since it doesn't matter in either storyline's continuity beyond the pages of this limited release title.

[Catacomb]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

You know' date=' snide crap like that really isn't helping.[/quote']

 

Yeah and there was nothing snide in your earlier opening remark to me...bub.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> There is a double standard there, there has to be, otherwise

> X-Men/Avengers would have been about 4 panels, but disagree all you

> want.

 

OK, now if you want to call X-Men/Avengers a piece of crap, I'll agree with you there. But not because of some general "crossovers don't count!" standard, but because of the specific example of Doctor freaking Druid supposedly mentally paralyzing Magneto while Magneto had his shielding helmet on.

 

The idea of Doctor Druid, psychic middleweight, easily performing a feat that Xavier has repeatedly failed to do, and had to go into freaking Onslaught mode before he could finally touch it... let me put it this way, before I'd agree with that one, I'd agree that Spidey could punch out Firelord.

 

But! I do not disagree with this because I hate crossovers! I disagree with it for the same reason I disagree with other things... because it makes no damn sense when we look at the characters' prior histories and overall feats.

 

> You're right, there doesn't have to be a balance in order to make a

> pre-determined number of X-over issues occur, there need be no fudging of

> powers because we all know that every super team and indavidual is

> created =, with just the perfect amount of balance to last the obligatory 4

> issue release.

 

... you did read FANTASTIC FOUR VS. X-MEN, yes?

 

They 'balanced' the issue by never having the teams actually knock-down drag-out brawl at all. Both times that it came to blows because some hothead on one side or the other went off (Logan in the first instance, Magneto in the second), the fight was interrupted before it really got started (Storm ordering the X-Men to stand down the first time, Franklin Richards shaming both sides into realizing that they were acting like total butt-wads the second time.)

 

The entire point of FF vs. X-MEN was the personal drama of 'How far will the X-Men go to save Kitty's life?' (read -- they done entered into a devil's bargain with Doctor Doom, is there any way they can get out of this with their souls and honor still intact?). And 'Will the FF be able to stop them?' (read -- Reed Richards' inner struggle with the hideously tormenting mind**** that Doom was laying upon him, as well as the rest of the FF having to decide whether or not they still trusted him 'cause said mind**** was also screwing with them hardcore as well.)

 

Teams needing to be 'balanced' for the brawl, not. I mean, it was quite clear both times that if it had come down to the knock-down-drag-out brawl, the X-men would have won. (Not only did they have the FF outnumbered four to two, but they had freaking Magneto on their side.) However, due to something known as "good writing", that never became an issue, and neither side required stupid jobbing to achieve that.

[Catacomb]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yes I have read the story, it still does not preclude it from the crossover phenominon. I'm sticking to my guns on this one, in house or out of company crossovers have a way of leaving the bounds of normalcy for the titles involved.

 

Hell during the excecutioners song there was a panel where Bishop Cable and Wolvie are fighting a bunch of Stryffe's baddies and Bishop asks Wolverine if he's okay. Know what Logan's reply was?

 

"Yeah I just broke a rib or two..."

 

X writers wrote it, the crossover was only X titles, and yet, there it was something outside the norm of what happened in the day to day issues.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

OK, plot summary of FF vs. X-Men:

 

X-Men -- "Oh no, Kitty is dying!"

 

Kitty -- "I am indeed dying, slowly and painfully. Sigh."

 

Logan -- "Flamin' Marauders! I'm gonna kill 'em one by one!"

 

Storm -- "Not for a couple dozen issues yet, we won't. Patience."

 

Moira MacTaggart -- "Kitty's phasing switch is jammed in the "ON" position and she's slowly disintegrating. I'm stumped."

 

Magneto -- "I've actually remembered that I'm a good scientist myself! Which is something that they usually don't let me do! ... not that it helps much, I'm stumped too."

 

Ororo -- "Well, we know what this means."

 

Magneto -- "Yes, it's time to consult The World's Smartest Man. Since I am the least trusted by the FF of any one of us, I will of course go."

 

*off to New York!*

 

Franklin Richards -- "Mommy, I had a bad dream that something horrible is gonna happen. And it will involve the X-Men, Doctor Doom, and daddy's old college journal!"

 

Susan Richards -- "Don't worry, Franklin, despite the fact that at this point in canon you are the most powerful precog known to mankind when you're dreaming, it's probably nothing. Hey, I just found Reed's old college journal that was lost forever! I wonder what's in it?"

 

Franklin Richards -- "... nobody ever listens to me."

 

*scene cut to Reed Richards being thrown face-first into a wall by the Thing*

 

Ben -- "Hey old buddy. About this thing where your college journal says you deliberately set us all up to be mutated into the FF because you thought the world was gonna need heroes. I am not amused."

 

Susan -- "I'm a little put out myself."

 

Johnny -- "Hey, this FF gig is the best thing that ever happened to me!"

 

Ben and Susan -- "SHUT UP!"

 

Reed -- "Despite the fact that I have absolutely no memory of doing any of this or writing this, I am going to wonder if I did it anyway, because I'm perfectly willing to believe that I spent several years of my life in a fugue state and having false memories of the period. Us comic-book supergeniuses are always torturing ourselves with stuff like this."

 

Magneto -- "Umm, I hate to interrupt the Richards Family Soap Opera Hour, but there's a young lady who's terminally ill. Can the World's Smartest Man come out and play?"

 

Fantastic Four -- "... in a minute, Reed's having a crippling attack of self-doubt while we're deciding whether or not to kill him."

 

Magneto -- "I'll just wait outside then."

 

*scene cut back to Muir Isle*

 

Reed Richards -- "I'm stumped."

 

Magneto -- "The hell you mean you're stumped? You're Reed freaking Richards! You're the guy Galactus calls when he needs help with his science homework! You should be solving this in your sleep!"

 

Reed -- "Normally, yes, but I'm having a real crisis at home right now and kinda can't concentrate well..."

 

Logan -- "MISERABLE !#%!@#%#!%! YOU SAVE KITTY RIGHT NOW OR I CUT YOU!"

 

Johnny -- "Logan's attacking Reed! FLAME ON! Oh hell, I hit Storm by mistake!"

 

*fighty time occurs briefly*

 

Thing -- "Lookin' the wrong way, shorty. Nap time for you."

 

X-Men -- "EVERYBODY GET READY TO RUMMMMMM..."

 

Ororo (staggering back to her feet) -- "No attacking fellow superheroes without my permission!"

 

X-Men -- "... never mind."

 

Fantastic Four -- "Man, can this day get any worse?"

 

Hologram of Doctor Doom Suddenly Appearing -- "I would just like to remind people that there are *two* contenders for the title of The World's Smartest Man, and I'm always up for trying a challenge that Reed Richards admits he can't do."

 

X-Men -- "Since at this point, 'desperate' doesn't even begin to cover where we are, we'll actually take this despite knowing the fact that selling our souls to Mephisto for a box of Cubans would be a safer idea than accepting aid from Doom."

 

Reed -- "Wait! You can't do this!"

 

X-Men -- *flip the FF the bird, get on the Blackbird, fly to Latveria*

 

End of Act One.

 

(add) No, I'm not gonna summarize the whole thing. It was actually very good, track down and read.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

- Yes, his Avengers run is one of my favs.

 

- I have a problem with the idea because it seems like a silly contrivance to give Superman a win. Of course, it also seems obvious to me Mjolnir always hits with extra magical damage, too.

I dunno about that, but I'm not coming at this from a comic book history level. I'm coming at it from a practical point. Thor beats up on lots of magic type guys, given his background, along with the mundane sorts. In the Marvel universe (heck, now even in DC given the weakening of Superman) nobody is realyl invulnerable to a good solid physical uber-strike. So by "default" (along with assuming magic expends some sort of energy, after all he does seem to have to call it up, even if it doesn't cost "much") I would think it would be best for him to "just" use it as the magically-enhanced big strong mallet that it is. But, hey, that's just me. I was never a Thor reader - frankly never found the character interesting.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

But Busiek argued that's not the case - that Supes is an uber-brick regardless, no more "vulnerable to magic" than the Hulk or Gladiator.

 

Anyway. I'm not sure anymore that Busiek has thought it all through.

But I don't think this is much different than the DC Silver Age. A magical attack on ANYONE would NORMALLY work, and Superman was the same as anyone. It's just that because he's Superman, it stands out.

 

Or I'm misunderstanding you.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Can I get your thoughts on my earlier post? Because you seem to have a different take than zornwil and I'm legitimately confused about the whole thing.

I think we're just confused somehow. I agree with ChuckG's statement. And to add on, Hulk would also be going "AAARGH, blonde guy hit Hulk with pain!" IF Mjolnir is all charged up (if not, Hulk would say "Puny blonde man sting Hulk with hammer! Hulk get mad!")

 

(You can see my Hulk-fu is weak...)

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

My thoughts are that the vast majority of Superman's PD and ED are bought 'Not vs. Magical Spells Or Energies', as opposed to being bought with 'Not vs. Anything Related To Magic Whatsoever In Any Way', a far more crippling disad.

 

I.e. -- a magic weapon only bypasses Superman's defenses if it's "magic" in the sense of "specifically charged up with magic energies of doom", and not if it's merely magic in the sense of "it's magically strong and tough".

 

It's sometimes hard to split that hair, yes, but this is why DM calls were invented. Or in the case of comics, writer calls.

For AA"s benefit, I want to say I am on the same page as ChuckG here.

 

We're in lockstep on this! (It happens!)

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I don't think Supes would be turned into strawberry jam from a magic blast or a magic hammer that does more damage due to its enchantment (Mjolnir) so I don't see the need for such a contrivance.

 

What's with all the commands?

 

You're not the boss of me.

 

Frankly, I think Spidey's success over Firelord is much less contrived than Busiek's explanation of how Mjolnir works against Superman.

I realize this is outside comics, but having played a lot with supernaturally-based energy and directly supernatural attacks, I didn't find Busiek's basic contention (regardless of the details of Mjolnir) at all a contrivance. And in terms of comis themselves, I also think it's true in general:

 

Magically created weapon <> magical attack when weapon hits

 

The magically created weapon MAY have a magical attack when it hits, but that's a separate issue.

 

Of course, it may be that Mjolnir has a magical attack inherent in its physical strikes. I'm not trying to weigh in on that specifically. But the logic seems fine to me. If people can produce data from the comics that shows that when Thor hits something it necessarily bypasses normal defenses, then fine, I would say Busiek's wrong. If they can't, I'd say he's right.