Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

 

 

OK, so then would you say the same thing about:

 

---Multipower F---

30 Reserve 60 Active, Full Phase, 0 DCV

3u 12d6 EB (Full Phase, 0 DCV) 60 active

3u 6d6 Entangle (Full Phase, 0 DCV) 60 active

3u 6d6 NND (Full Phase, 0 DCV) 60 active

3u 4d6 RKA (Full Phase, 0 DCV) 60 active

------

 

Sure thing...

Similar situation... you have deep flaws that you can't simply shift slots to aviod. You'll end up spending the extra points you save on defences, or get very used to being scraped off the landscape.... you're basically dropping all defence when you attack.

 

The utility cost of a MP isn't just about power but flexibility, and as flexibility increases, thus does overall utility, and thusly point cost. IMO. The current system reflects this, more or less (It could be better, but would take a lot deeper breakdown and rebuild of the system than has been comitted, and would break all the old writeups in the prgress, which is probably why it hasn't been attempted). Your preferred approach dosen't. Simple as that.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

Sure thing...

Similar situation... you have deep flaws that you can't simply shift slots to avoid.

 

Exactly! If you want the full limitation point savings on the reserve, the reserve must suffer the full limitation. This character must be at 0 DCV and spend a full phase to use the reserve at all. Half move? Sorry, no multipower. Used the Multipower? Sorry, no DCV.

 

he can't use the reserve against undead instead, or use a lower powered ability to eliminate the limitations. Every use of the Multipower exposes him to these limitations. So the reserve benefits from the full limitation.

 

Make it less limiting, and the limitation on the reserve should be less. It should still cost less than an unrestricted reserve. Under the rules (and the builds presented), this happens. Under the Phil System, a greater restriction on the reserve (ie only vs Undead, or always results in 0 DCV and takes a full phase) does not result in a reduced cost.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

Interesting. I'm going to have to think about this some more.

 

In the meantime, I'll annoy you with the original idea that started this whole thing for me: the case of a regular attack at one level, and a specialized attack at a higher level. Something like this:

 

60 Reserve

6u (standard power 1)

6u (standard power 2)

6u 12d6 EB - "Fire Blast"

3u 12d6 EB, Only vs. Undead (-1) - "Holy Blast"

 

plus

30 +12d6 EB, Only vs. Undead - Adds to last slot of MP.

 

Total cost for this completely legal build is 111.

 

Note that I want the two EBs to be separate from each other. The character has to correctly discern whether the target creature is truly undead. The following is not what I want:

 

60 Reserve

6u (standard power 1)

6u (standard power 2)

6u 12d6 EB

 

plus

30 +12d6 EB, Only vs. Undead - Adds to last slot of MP.

 

Total cost for this completely legal build is 108.

 

This is actually *more* useful than the first build (because an orc dressed up like a zombie will still take 12d6), but costs *less*. And you could make the entire MP 80 points for 104 total (even less). What would you do about this?

 

My rule allows for:

 

60 Reserve

6u (standard power 1)

6u (standard power 2)

6u 12d6 EB - "Fire Blast"

6u 24d6 EB, Only vs. Undead (-1) - "Holy Blast" (60 Real Points)

 

Total cost: 84.

 

Granted 24d6 might be a little excessive, but you get the idea. I guess usually you'd use it to spread to get a bunch of the abominations against nature at once.

 

Do you think 84 points for this is unreasonable? If not, how much should it cost? And remember, it has to be significantly less than 108 in order to be worth taking at all.

 

And just to save time, here's another example if you object to the 24d6:

 

60 Reserve

6u (standard power 1)

6u (standard power 2)

6u 12d6 EB - "Fire Blast"

3u 6d6 EB, Armor Piercing, Affects Desolid, Only vs. Undead (-1) - "Holy Blast"

 

plus

30 +6d6 EB, Armor Piercing, Affects Desolid, Only vs. Undead - Adds to Holy Blast

 

Total cost for this completely legal build is 111. But to be fair, it should cost less than:

 

60 Reserve

6u (standard power 1)

6u (standard power 2)

6u 12d6 EB - "Fire Blast"

 

plus

30 Armor Piercing and Affects Desolid for the Fire Blast, Only vs. Undead - "Holy Fire"

 

For only 108 points, which still works against the living wizard in the vampire outfit, just not Armor Piercing or Affects Desolid.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

Just looking at your 1st and 2nd examples it seems like a Detect Undead power would make their differences a moot point.

 

Are these particular limitations the actual ones that spurred on this idea for you? That is, are they for a Cleric/Paladin type of character?

 

If not ignore my comments.

 

The reason I raise this point is that boosted abilities like this seem to make more sense for characters who have earned and spent experience. If the players are demonstrating extraordinary roleplaying of 'holy' characters it just seems a whole lot easier too assign XP as a gift from the gods to accomplish the same savings of points. If the points balance is really that important once a campaign is already up an running that is.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

Interesting. I'm going to have to think about this some more.

 

In the meantime, I'll annoy you with the original idea that started this whole thing for me: the case of a regular attack at one level, and a specialized attack at a higher level. Something like this:

 

60 Reserve

6u (standard power 1)

6u (standard power 2)

6u 12d6 EB - "Fire Blast"

3u 12d6 EB, Only vs. Undead (-1) - "Holy Blast"

 

plus

30 +12d6 EB, Only vs. Undead - Adds to last slot of MP.

 

Total cost for this completely legal build is 111.

 

Note that I want the two EBs to be separate from each other. The character has to correctly discern whether the target creature is truly undead. The following is not what I want:

 

60 Reserve

6u (standard power 1)

6u (standard power 2)

6u 12d6 EB

 

plus

30 +12d6 EB, Only vs. Undead - Adds to last slot of MP.

 

Total cost for this completely legal build is 108.

 

This is actually *more* useful than the first build (because an orc dressed up like a zombie will still take 12d6), but costs *less*. And you could make the entire MP 80 points for 104 total (even less). What would you do about this?

 

60 Reserve

6u (standard power 1)

6u (standard power 2)

6u 12d6 EB

 

plus

20 +12d6 EB, Only vs. Undead (-1) - Adds to last slot of MP; if target is not Undead, entire attack does no damage (-1)

 

98 points vs 108

 

As to increasing the entire framework, most frameworks work more efficiently if the powers in them are of similar size. Consider adding a 20 point power to an Elemental Control of 50 point powers for a similar example. Besides, I wouldn't allow campaign norms to be exceeded dramatically for an unlimited Multipower, but I might for an attack that specially targets Undead (and that goes just as much for a 12d6 AP Affects Desolid attack as for a 24d6 attack).

[travisjhall]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

60 Reserve

6u (standard power 1)

6u (standard power 2)

6u 12d6 EB

 

plus

20 +12d6 EB, Only vs. Undead (-1) - Adds to last slot of MP; if target is not Undead, entire attack does no damage (-1)

 

98 points vs 108

 

My worry about such a build is this:

10 Reserve

1u (standard power 1)

1u (standard power 2)

1u 2d6 EB

 

plus

20 +12d6 EB, Only vs. Undead (-1) - Adds to last slot of MP; if target is not Undead, entire attack does no damage (-1)

 

That follows the same principle, but gives a 10 point saving on the big EB for a limitation affecting a 10 AP power in a 13 point multipower. It doesn't make the idea worthless, of course, but the GM will have to be a bit careful concerning how that limitation is used. The limitation might have to be smaller in my example there.

 

Now, granted I don't have a lot of experience with the current rules, but what about:

 

60 Reserve

6u (standard power 1)

6u (standard power 2)

4u 12d6 EB, does no damage again non-Undead when below adder is used (-1/2)

 

plus

20 +12d6 EB, Only vs. Undead (-1) - Adds to last slot of MP

 

106 points vs 108.

 

That means that the limitation is on the power which is actually being limited, and thus scales the cost appropriate to the size of that power. In this case, the cost saving is pretty small, but frankly that may be a good thing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

My worry about such a build is this:

10 Reserve

1u (standard power 1)

1u (standard power 2)

1u 2d6 EB

 

plus

20 +12d6 EB, Only vs. Undead (-1) - Adds to last slot of MP; if target is not Undead, entire attack does no damage (-1)

 

I would vary the value of the "entire attack does no damage" limitation with the comparative size of the two attacks, actually. In your example, it would be at most -1/4, and possibly not limited at all (2d6 being inadequate to be a credible attack against anyone, the power is not really Limited by that extra limitation).

[travisjhall]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

I would vary the value of the "entire attack does no damage" limitation with the comparative size of the two attacks' date=' actually. In your example, it would be at most -1/4, and possibly not limited at all (2d6 being inadequate to be a credible attack against anyone, the power is not really Limited by that extra limitation).[/quote']

Yes, precisely - that's how a careful GM would use it. If I had immediate access to a copy of 5ER, I'd have a look to see whether Side Effects could be bludgeoned into an indicator for how big the limitation should be.

 

Still, I have to admit to being inclined towards putting the limitation on the power that is actually being limited.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

Yes, precisely - that's how a careful GM would use it. If I had immediate access to a copy of 5ER, I'd have a look to see whether Side Effects could be bludgeoned into an indicator for how big the limitation should be.

 

Still, I have to admit to being inclined towards putting the limitation on the power that is actually being limited.

 

That would be my immediate bias as well. However, I also agree with Phil that the construct he has presented (the whole attack fails if the target is Undead) should cost more than the alternative construct where half the attack gets through even if the other half fails (where the target is not undead). One character will get 12d6 through if he guesses wrong, the other will waste an attack.

 

EDIT: Plus, it doesn;t make it immune to abuse. Consider the following:

 

30 Multipower: 60 point base, entire attack fails if second MP used and target is not Undead

 

3 u 12d6 EB, entire attack fails if second MP used and target is not Undead

3 u 4s6 RKA, entire attack fails if second MP used and target is not Undead

3 u 12d6 Flash, entire attack fails if second MP used and target is not Undead

 

2 +1d6 EB, only vs Undead

2 +1 pip RKA, only vs Undead

2 +1d6 Flash, only vs Undead

 

45 points total. Bet the guy who paid 78 points for the unlimited multipower is ticked off (even if we never see an Undead)

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

Just looking at your 1st and 2nd examples it seems like a Detect Undead power would make their differences a moot point.

To a certain extent, yes. But Senses can be fooled and PER rolls can be failed, especially in combat.

 

Are these particular limitations the actual ones that spurred on this idea for you? That is, are they for a Cleric/Paladin type of character?

Sort of. Not necessarily undead, but any category of opponents (and not necessarily just for fantasy games). And also the "cataclysmic blast of last resort" power slot - a really big attack (say with AE, and possibly other advantages), that is really difficult/dangerous to use (Major Side Effects, 10xEND cost, etc.) - in other words a slot that is almost at the level of a plot device. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me for a character to pay the cost of one Ultra slot for his Multipower (6 points in the examples) for a huge power that he's likely to only use once ever in his career.

 

The reason I raise this point is that boosted abilities like this seem to make more sense for characters who have earned and spent experience. If the players are demonstrating extraordinary roleplaying of 'holy' characters it just seems a whole lot easier too assign XP as a gift from the gods to accomplish the same savings of points. If the points balance is really that important once a campaign is already up an running that is.

I'm not sure I understand you here. Are you saying that a new character shouldn't have a specialized attack? How does assigning XP expeditures change the point costs in any way? Are you suggesting giving extra xp to cleric/paladin types, just so they can blast undead? I'm not arguing, I really think I'm missing your point here.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

...

 

 

I'm not sure I understand you here. Are you saying that a new character shouldn't have a specialized attack? How does assigning XP expeditures change the point costs in any way? Are you suggesting giving extra xp to cleric/paladin types, just so they can blast undead? I'm not arguing, I really think I'm missing your point here.

 

It seems like you are going to a lot of effort to bend the rules in an effort to give a particular character concept its own special flair. The Paladin reference was due to that particular 'class' of D&D characters was one of the closest things to a 'hero' character since they already had a 'code of conduct' that they had to follow at all times if they wanted to keep their special gifts. It was documented way for a GM to apply his judgement of whether the player was roleplaying the character correctly and reward or punish him accordingly. What you've described so far reminded me of this more than anything else.

 

My point however, is that if 'GM handwaving' is going to be involved why make more work for yourself by changing the base rules and having to worry about interpreting them wholey by yourself on top of all the other issues? If you think its unfairly costed using a 'by-the-book' method, don't change the method, just assign XP towards whatever special plot device power the player wants with the mutual understanding that it is not to be abused in a power level arms-race.

 

And regarding your question regarding starting characters instead of XP rewards? Easy, as long as everyone gets a special ability discount of equal value, the points discount itself is balanced.

 

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

One could also make this a campaign-specific rule, much like the "Spells cost 1/3 of their real point cost" rule in the Turakian Age.

 

"Paladins may purchase extra damage, only vs Undead, for X% of the real cost of such powers". Make it available to anyone taking an appropriate Package (which would include devotion to an appropriate deity).

[zornwil]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

Or, much easier IMHO, make it so all undead have Vulnerability versus Holy Men (or similar).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

Or' date=' much easier IMHO, make it so all undead have Vulnerability versus Holy Men (or similar).[/quote']

 

If you want the ability shared by all Holy Men. The "discount for holy men" ability says this will be more common to such characters, but not shared by all holy men,

[zornwil]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

If you want the ability shared by all Holy Men. The "discount for holy men" ability says this will be more common to such characters' date=' but not shared by all holy men,[/quote']

Sure, it could be just paladins or the like this was just a for-instance of course. It just sounded like this was supposed to be common to a class of characters, and in that case, to me, it seems easier, especially if replicating a D&D fantasy trope, to make it a Disad for the targets rather than a power for the ones performing it.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

It seems like you are going to a lot of effort to bend the rules in an effort to give a particular character concept its own special flair. ....

My point however, is that if 'GM handwaving' is going to be involved why make more work for yourself by changing the base rules and having to worry about interpreting them wholey by yourself on top of all the other issues? If you think its unfairly costed using a 'by-the-book' method, don't change the method, just assign XP towards whatever special plot device power the player wants with the mutual understanding that it is not to be abused in a power level arms-race.

 

And regarding your question regarding starting characters instead of XP rewards? Easy, as long as everyone gets a special ability discount of equal value, the points discount itself is balanced.

Fair enough. Though from my perspective, it seems like less work (or perhaps it's just work I don't mind so much) to make a simple change or bend in the rules, rather than having to make more complicated builds with extra "plus" powers and naked advantages, etc.

 

And let me reiterate: it isn't just about Paladins smiting undead, it's about any character of any archetype with a specialized attack. vs Dragons, vs Demons, vs Giants, vs shapechangers, vs reptilian creatures, or even with a special circumstance limitation (such as the concentration mentioned earlier, but more likely something like: Only if there's a significantly large source of fire nearby, Only if the target is wearing a significant mass of metal armor, only if the caster knows the "True Name" of the target, etc.)

 

My original complaint was that there would be no point to having a specialized attack if it couldn't have higher AP than the normal, usable-against-anyone attack. I appreciate all of the suggestions about how to do this.

 

It's easy to envision a campaign where each PC had a different specialty (or "Favored Enemy" to put it in B&D terms), or a different set of circumstances under which their spells were most effective. And of course, you could add to this one or more characters whose powers were the plain, off-the-shelf variety. For example, a group of mages that each use a different style of magic, plus one brawny all-purpose fighter.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

Fair enough. Though from my perspective, it seems like less work (or perhaps it's just work I don't mind so much) to make a simple change or bend in the rules, rather than having to make more complicated builds with extra "plus" powers and naked advantages, etc.

 

And let me reiterate: it isn't just about Paladins smiting undead, it's about any character of any archetype with a specialized attack. vs Dragons, vs Demons, vs Giants, vs shapechangers, vs reptilian creatures, or even with a special circumstance limitation (such as the concentration mentioned earlier, but more likely something like: Only if there's a significantly large source of fire nearby, Only if the target is wearing a significant mass of metal armor, only if the caster knows the "True Name" of the target, etc.)

 

My original complaint was that there would be no point to having a specialized attack if it couldn't have higher AP than the normal, usable-against-anyone attack. I appreciate all of the suggestions about how to do this.

 

It's easy to envision a campaign where each PC had a different specialty (or "Favored Enemy" to put it in B&D terms), or a different set of circumstances under which their spells were most effective. And of course, you could add to this one or more characters whose powers were the plain, off-the-shelf variety. For example, a group of mages that each use a different style of magic, plus one brawny all-purpose fighter.

 

 

I can totally understand the idea you're working towards, but if you are really looking for target-specific, plot device power level, not likely to ever be used more than once or twice in a campaign effects, why not consider doing them as a form of Favor Based Magic, much the way Valdoran magic works. While it might take a bit of work to figure out, SFX-wise, for a non divine or humanistic based character, for a lot of other character types it'd seem to be tailor made for what you want. A handful of XP dropped into a Favor defined as Divine Intervention give you a one shot that will probably cost as much as your extra slots, but actually retain more flexibility, more plot device options, and removes a lot of the temptation to use the "Uber rare plot device power" far more often than you as a GM want to see it.

Unless you have really good players, the problem you find with stated out "final option" powers is that if the players spent points on them, and have the cold hard numbers down on their sheet, they can think about how to minimize the negative efects while using them as often as practical when the appropriate circumstances arise. Kind of like the old Voltron uber-power sword, or the Wave motion Gun.... Dramatic liscence has the good guys wait till they are on the ropes before busting out their big one shot killer. In an actual game however, if the players know that 95% of the time that one shot will take out a single baddy, no matter how buff, it suddenly becomes very attractive as a first shot in a single badguy fight.

 

Dropping points into big league Favors is a system that I am glad to see finally ghetting some air time in the mainstream HERO system, as it has the potential to replicate quite a lot of effects seen in fictional sources... Elric's Ring of Kings, for example, works great as a collection of big league Favors, all neatly wrapped up in an Independent Focus. It lets him, through the course of the series, pull some serious rabbits out of his hat, but always as a last resort, because he knows when a particular Favor is used, it's GONE... So he has to carefully ponder if the situation is really worth wasting the power on. the system has many similarities to Runequests Divine Intervention as well.

 

In any ase, I am one of those GM's who is VERY cautious about frameworks in Heroic level games.... Any framework (with the possible exception of EC's) has the potential to mess up balance if mishandled or misapplied.

[travisjhall]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

However' date=' I also agree with Phil that the construct he has presented (the whole attack fails if the target is Undead) should cost more than the alternative construct where half the attack gets through even if the other half fails (where the target is not undead). One character will get 12d6 through if he guesses wrong, the other will waste an attack.[/quote']

Errm, you mean "should cost less", yes? Yes, I think we all agree with that. There are several approaches to achieving that, with different savings. The one I suggested saves two points.

 

EDIT: Plus, it doesn;t make it immune to abuse. Consider the following:

 

30 Multipower: 60 point base, entire attack fails if second MP used and target is not Undead

 

3 u 12d6 EB, entire attack fails if second MP used and target is not Undead

3 u 4s6 RKA, entire attack fails if second MP used and target is not Undead

3 u 12d6 Flash, entire attack fails if second MP used and target is not Undead

 

2 +1d6 EB, only vs Undead

2 +1 pip RKA, only vs Undead

2 +1d6 Flash, only vs Undead

 

45 points total. Bet the guy who paid 78 points for the unlimited multipower is ticked off (even if we never see an Undead)

Well, I used a -1/2 for "entire attack fails if adder is used and target is not Undead", which makes this cost 59.5 (if the decimals are retained), which is a big jump up in cost. But yes, a scaling of the value of the limitation is probably still required.

 

I've had thoughts of a completely different approach, too. I've thought about doing away with multipowers as they currently exist, and applying a straight multiplier to the cost of powers based on whether they can be used simultaneously with other powers - say, x0.2 for the first power that cannot be used simultaneously with another power, x0.1 for each power beyond that, with the powers being ordered by real cost. Thus, we would get this set of constructs:

 

60 60x1 12d6 EB

60 total points

 

30 30x1 6d6 EB

15 15x1 +6d6 EB Only vs Undead

45 total points

 

30 30x1 6d6 EB

6 30x0.2 12d6 EB Only vs Undead (-1), not simultaneous with above

36 total points

 

30 30x1 12d6 Only vs Undead (-1)

30 total points

 

Which basically means that the character saves 9 points for having the complete-fail-if-wrong-guess version.

 

But that, of course, is going even further away from standard Hero than the other suggestions in this thread.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

Errm' date=' you mean "should cost less", yes?[/quote']

 

The hand is quicker than the brain! Thanks.

 

Yes' date=' I think we all agree with that. There are several approaches to achieving that, with different savings. The one I suggested saves two points.[/quote']

 

Which brings it down to magnitude of savings. At least if we can save something, we're getting somewhere.

 

I've had thoughts of a completely different approach, too. I've thought about doing away with multipowers as they currently exist, and applying a straight multiplier to the cost of powers based on whether they can be used simultaneously with other powers - say, x0.2 for the first power that cannot be used simultaneously with another power, x0.1 for each power beyond that, with the powers being ordered by real cost.

 

Thus, we would get this set of constructs:

 

60 60x1 12d6 EB

60 total points

 

30 30x1 6d6 EB

15 15x1 +6d6 EB Only vs Undead

45 total points

 

30 30x1 6d6 EB

6 30x0.2 12d6 EB Only vs Undead (-1), not simultaneous with above

36 total points

 

30 30x1 12d6 Only vs Undead (-1)

30 total points

 

I don't see any difference between your third approach and Phil's, other than the mechanics. Phil would have a 30 point pool w/ 2 3 point Ultra slots.

 

Maybe if we based this more on the Elemental Control model, we'd get a decent result. That is, you pay 90% (as opposed to EC's 50%) of the base points. This cost is subtracted from each power, none of which are usable simultaneously. You pay for any extra AP over and above the pool, and get limitations on the 10% + extra AP.

 

27 EC Base (30 x 90%)

3 6d6 EB (30 - 27)

16 12d6 EB vs Undead only (60 - 27 = 33/2 = 16)

 

Total cost of 46 means it doesn't work, unfortunately, as it's more expensive than just adding the extra dice. Back to limiting the bonus dice, I guess.

[travisjhall]

Re: Multipower active points vs. reserve points: why?

 

Which brings it down to magnitude of savings. At least if we can save something' date=' we're getting somewhere.[/quote']

Yes. It is pretty obvious that something should be saved, but judging how much is appropriate is much more difficult.

 

I don't see any difference between your third approach and Phil's, other than the mechanics. Phil would have a 30 point pool w/ 2 3 point Ultra slots.

I didn't start fooling around with that as a solution to this particular problem. I wanted to get around the way frameworks work much more efficiently with same-sized powers - not just accounting for limitation cost reductions, but also - mostly even - for different-sized powers.

 

The multipliers I gave, 0.2 and 0.1, are what you would have to use to reproduce some of the standard multipower costs, but frankly, I think those costs are generally too low. Another set of multipliers would be 0.6 to the power of the previous "non-simultaneous powers". That gives higher costs for small sets of powers, and allows a character to have an infinite set of powers for the same cost as a cosmic variable power pool. (Of course, if the cost for a MP-equivalent rises, one might have to fix brick costs, because cheap MPs are what compensates for too-cheap bricks, and the changes roll on...)

 

But as you imply, some of the same problems will crop up with this approach as with Phil's - specifically limitations which aren't limiting because you just use a different power instead. One way around this approach would be to build up "trees" of powers, with the requirement that a limitation taken at one level of the tree would apply all the way down that branch. For example, something like this:

 

60 60x1 12d6 EB

36 60x0.6 24d6 EB, Only vs Undead (-1)

11 30x0.36 6d6 Entangle, Only vs Undead (-1)

36 60x0.6 Some Other Power Not Only vs Undead

 

But there are some examples that produce problems with this, too.

 

Maybe if we based this more on the Elemental Control model, we'd get a decent result.

No, it winds up producing the same problems with different-sized powers as the standard frameworks.

[Theros]

To be honest, I am too lazy to read whole thread to get answer to my question. I will borrow this topic and write it to end, as this is close to orginal question.

 

Character with Multipower weapon. Lets say that he has 40 points in reserve, he has power that causes 8d6 Stun damage. No adders, advantages, limitations and so on.

 

He wants to use power from his weapon.

 

He has enough reserve to shoot, as 8d6 consumes that 40 point reserve. Is that reserve in use every time character shoots? Is there some sort of recharge time? Is it so that reserve is actually "maximum number of points of powers in use at the same time"? I think that this isn't clearly said anywhere in the book.

 

Then...if character has a weapon. Why weapon consumes energy (END) from character? If it consumes, I think that END is one kind of Action Points, which determine what character can do in battle, is this rigt way to think? If there are charges in characters weapon, is it so that after charges end, weapon is useless until it gets more charges? How I should handle situation where charges end and character needs more of those?

 

Let me tell how I think. Weapons don't cost END, those use "own" energy or some sort of external energy source from bullets, battery and so on. Hitting with fist or sword consumes characters own END, because he does actual job. In some situation there might be limitation that connects character to weapon of some sort. That situation differs from original situation, because then character might use his own END to shoot.

 

If character has power armor, where he has numerous weapons and he has one general power reserve for all equipment. How that is handled?

[bigbywolfe]

The reserve is not some kind of energy reserve or battery or number of charges. It's just how many Active Points can be in use in the Multipower at any given time.

 

In order for a weapon to not use the character's ENDurance it needs to be bought with the Reduced Endurance Advantage, or more likely with Charges (which can be an Advantage or Limitation depending on how many there are). Saying "this is a weapon" does not magically change how the Power works, you have to build what you want.

 

Many power armor characters have a END Reserve that functions as the suits "battery" and the suit's powers all use that END.

[Hyper-Man]

holy 8 year old thread necro batman!

 

The Reserve of a Multipower and the Control cost of a Variable Power Pool represent the largest Active Cost ability that can be used within those Frameworks. The Active Cost includes any Advantages on the abilities. An 8d6 Blast with 0 End (+1/2) will be 60 Active Points so would only fit into a Framework with a 60 point Reserve or Control Cost.

[psyber624]

The rationale behind multipower is essentially "I have a bunch of powers that I can't use at full strength all at once". The reserve controls the "power level" of the list of powers, no power can have more active points in than points in the reserve and you cannot have more points active at any one time than there are points in the reserve. That's all it really does from a mechanics standpoint. From a balance standpoint it also ensures that you are paying the full amount for the amount of power you are using at any given time.

 

In your example your player has "allocated" his reserve to his 8d6 shot. Changing how the reserve is "allocated" is a Zero Phase Action (meaning he can do it anytime during his phase without "spending" any part of his phase doing so but cannot do it outside of his phase or after his phase has ended (such as after an attack)). You can also only change the allocation once per phase, so you cant slot say a movement power, take a half move, then switch all the reserve to a defense power. Also note that "Ultra" or "Fixed" slots always take up their full amount of reserve points, so if you have a 40 point Multipower with an 8d6 Blast bought as a fixed slot, it will always use the 40 points, even if you only fire a 4d6 blast this turn. "Multi Slots" on the other hand only take as much reserve as you intend to use. So if you had both an 8d6 blast and a 20PD/20ED force field both as multi slots in the MPP then you could use either at full power, or have a 4d6 blast and a 10/10 Force field, or any other combination adding up to 40 active points.

 

About your weapon. Remember that HERO system reasons from GAME EFFECTS, not from SPECIAL EFFECTS. The fact that your Blast is a gun is meaningless "to the system". If you do nothing but buy a Blast then your "gun" requires END to use as you didn't add any GAME EFFECTS that allow it to bypass the rules on END use for powers. That's perfectly legal. If you want to better simulate the SFX of a "gun" with your power you would apply the appropriate advantages or limitations to the Blast to better represent how your "gun" should work in the system. 0 END, Charges, END reserve, all of these are different ways of powering your gun. If you apply any of them then the gun doesn't use your player's END but just because you call your Blast a "gun" doesn't automatically give it any of them. Its how YOU choose to build it that's important.

 

Guns generally are bought with Charges (if you are talking about real world simulations of guns) that represent your "bullets". If you want to have more bullets you could either choose more Charges when you build the power, or buy your charges as "clips" of charges that you carry around. Don't forget that charges automatically fill up at the end of the day/adventure in most cases. In a Superheroic setting everyone pays for their powers in points and the Fire Blaster guy has to spend END to use his power, why should you get your Power END free without paying for it? He can recover END normally with his REC, and your charges recover once a day. As a GM you could theoretically allow him to "pick up" used ammo or such but that way lies madness (and likely upset players who have to spend END/obscure charges/whatever). In a heroic setting things are different as players usually pay money, not CP, for their equipment. In that case you could allow a player to use any ammo he might come across, or allow him to go to the store to get more, or whatever. In that setting EVERYONE is using real world equipment (for the most part) so you aren't giving Gun Guy any extra benefits he didn't pay for. And that balance is one of the central tenants of the HERO system.

[Lucius]

To be honest, I am too lazy to read whole thread to get answer to my question. I will borrow this topic and write it to end, as this is close to orginal question.

 

Character with Multipower weapon. Lets say that he has 40 points in reserve, he has power that causes 8d6 Stun damage. No adders, advantages, limitations and so on.

 

He wants to use power from his weapon.

 

He has enough reserve to shoot, as 8d6 consumes that 40 point reserve. Is that reserve in use every time character shoots?

 

Yes. If he's shooting the weapon at full power, he can't use any other power in the Multipower. On the other hand, if he's shooting at half power (assuming it's a variable slot rather than a fixed slot) he can put the other points in other powers in the Multipower.

 

Is there some sort of recharge time?

 

No more so than any other power. If he used that 8d6 Blast last phase, he can use it this phase, and next phase, and the phase after that.

 

Is it so that reserve is actually "maximum number of points of powers in use at the same time"? I think that this isn't clearly said anywhere in the book.

 

You have said it perfectly. It is the maximum number of points of powers in use at the same time.

 

Then...if character has a weapon. Why weapon consumes energy (END) from character?

 

IF it consumes END, that's because it was built that way. If you don't want it to consume END, you can build it differently. Look at it this way. If it's a gun, should someone be able to grab it and wrestle it away from the character? But if it's NOT bought as a Focus, they can't do that.

 

The solution is - if it's supposed to be a gun, build it as a gun. Give it the Focus Limitation and Charges and whatever other Advantages and Limitations you think a gun should have. If a player comes to you with a character who has an attack called a "gun" and it does NOT have Focus and Charges, ask why or tell them to use those Limitations.

 

Or use a pre-built weapon if you find a suitable one in any Hero product. Dark Champions for example has more examples of guns and ammunition than I can imagine anyone ever needing or wanting.

 

If it consumes' date=' I think that END is one kind of Action Points, which determine what character can do in battle, is this rigt way to think?[/quote']

 

I have no idea what you mean by "Action Points" so I can't answer that.

 

If there are charges in characters weapon' date=' is it so that after charges end, weapon is useless until it gets more charges? How I should handle situation where charges end and character needs more of those?[/quote']

 

Generally speaking, Charges are renewed the next day, especially for superheroes..

 

If the game is heroic rather than superheroic, it may be possible or necessary to buy ammunition, or scavenge it from fallen enemies, steal it from an enemy armory, etc. If you're playing fantasy and we're talking about arrows, perhaps they can be recovered from the battlefield, those that didn't break.

 

If the game is superheroic, and the character is on an extended adventure or it otherwise just plain doesn't make sense that they can get their charges back, you can tell them that they don't. Just try not to inflict such things on your characters too often.

 

Let me tell how I think. Weapons don't cost END' date=' those use "own" energy or some sort of external energy source from bullets, battery and so on. Hitting with fist or sword consumes characters own END, because he does actual job. In some situation there might be limitation that connects character to weapon of some sort. That situation differs from original situation, because then character might use his own END to shoot.[/quote']

 

Okay, I just have to say that I have no idea what you're saying with the above sentences.

 

If character has power armor' date=' where he has numerous weapons and he has one general power reserve for all equipment. How that is handled?[/quote']

 

Check out the Power, Endurance Reserve. That is usually how it would be handled.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary buys an indoor heated variable power pool