Eating your lunch...

[Kristopher]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

Cites?

[MitchellS]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

MitchellS, is that level of disdain and generalization really necessary? If you really think we're all bigoted and self-righteous, what are you doing here?

 

Or do you include yourself in that classification?

When I see people posting things saying M&M = filth then that tells me those are the same types of people who post on other boards about how you need a calculus degree to play Hero; it's the exact same narrow bigoted attitude. Part of that attitude might stem from the fact that the new blood in Hero didn't live through the dark years but in any event I still find those types of attitudes to be a negative mark up on the whole Hero community. Glass houses and all that.

[MitchellS]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

Interesting...

 

Y'know, I used to think that you simply disagreed with DoJ's direction for the HERO System, and that you posted in the disdainful manner you do because of that seemingly deep-seated and powerful disagreement. Even though I was usually on the opposite side of your positions, I paid attention to what you had to say and considered it as something of potential value.

 

Now, however, I'm coming to the opinion that you either don't know what you're talking about -- see the quote above -- (in which case I can safely ignore your posts), or you're actively spreading erroneous or misleading information in order to stir up controversy and reaction in people (in which case I should ignore your posts simply to avoid giving you the satisfaction of reacting to them).

 

Either way, welcome to my ignore list.

Derek, I have been ignoring you for a long time. I just didn't need to push the button. Didn't you notice?

[Kristopher]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

From the point of view of someone who has played many different games using many different systems, d20 is inferior.

 

And so is any other level-based game.

 

And so is any other game that uses a single die for determination.

 

And so is any other game that uses the "Armor Class" trick.

[archermoo]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

From the point of view of someone who has played many different games using many different systems' date=' d20 [i']is[/i] inferior.

 

And so is any other level-based game.

 

And so is any other game that uses a single die for determination.

 

And so is any other game that uses the "Armor Class" trick.

 

No, all of those things make it inferior in your opinion. Claiming that it is inferior is like saying "Steak is tastier than chicken".

 

Granted, I agree with your opinion, but that doesn't make it objectively true.

[Kristopher]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

No' date=' all of those things make it inferior in your opinion. Claiming that it [b']is[/b] inferior is like saying "Steak is tastier than chicken".

 

Granted, I agree with your opinion, but that doesn't make it objectively true.

 

Single die determination = excessively random.

 

Class and Level based = excessively contrained.

 

Armor Class = wildly at odds with how armor and evasion actually work.

 

And in each case, especially the Class and Level case, it's something that infests the gaming industry. I'd love on the of MMORPGs to not be based around classes and levels. I'm trying out City of Villains, and there are certain characters I can't build because you can't be a "tweener" in their class-based character creation system -- you're either a blaster or a brick, basically.

 

And as someone involved in the design of a new game as well, I have to say that there's almost nothing d20 handles in a way that produces good results.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

When I see people posting things saying M&M = filth then that tells me those are the same types of people who post on other boards about how you need a calculus degree to play Hero; it's the exact same narrow bigoted attitude. Part of that attitude might stem from the fact that the new blood in Hero didn't live through the dark years but in any event I still find those types of attitudes to be a negative mark up on the whole Hero community. Glass houses and all that.

You failed to answer my questions.

 

I'd like to know if you're talking about the same "narrow-minded bigots" who welcomed me to a new system though I knew next to nothing about it, beyond how to play in it, and who've encouraged me to learn the rules for myself without ever using the words, "newbie" (or its variations), "just read the rules" (and its variations), or "duh" (and its variations).

[hancock.tom]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

Mitchell, this is not a case where a few bad apples ruin the bunch. There are a handful of M&M players with a superiority complex too, but that doesn't make me want to go to their board and flamebait.

 

Stop avoiding Alice's questions.

[archermoo]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

Single die determination = excessively random.

 

In your opinion. Some people like that level of random.

 

Class and Level based = excessively contrained.

 

In your opinion. Some people like that level of structure.

 

Armor Class = wildly at odds with how armor and evasion actually work.

 

It is your opinion that it not mapping to reality well makes it a bad system to use for a role playing game. Some people would disagree with that.

 

Again, your opinion. I'm not saying your opinion isn't a valid opinion. Heck, I for the most part agree with it. But it is still an opinion, not an objective measure of what makes one RPG "better" than another.

[MitchellS]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

You failed to answer my questions.

The questions:

 

1- The original post was meant as a reply to Stan but I forgot to click the quote button, but for the most part I do believe the Hero community has an underlying arrogance that their game is better then everyone else [even though a huge number of posts on these boards are about how to fix broken things].

 

2- I'm here because you don't need to be a 100% Hero fan-boy to enjoy the game. I'm here because I like the Champions Universe and believe it has potential. I'm a 24.5 year Hero vet. I've earned my stripes and the right to disagree just like eveyrone else. I also love the fact that over the last 2 years Hero has become a "love it or leave it" community.

 

3- I consider myself to be open-minded. I steal rules and information from every game I've ever purchased if I think they fit my game. If I think something is better I say it. I don't just walk around assuming because it's Hero it's the only possible way to do things. Far too many people here do assume that, IMO.

[MitchellS]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

Mitchell, this is not a case where a few bad apples ruin the bunch. There are a handful of M&M players with a superiority complex too, but that doesn't make me want to go to their board and flamebait.

 

Stop avoiding Alice's questions.

I didn't avoid them. I was typing. Sorry if it wasn't fast enough for you.

 

And I'm not flamebaiting. I'm just extending my opinion of what I have seen on these Hero boards over the last year. There's too much non-Hero game bashing going on here, IMO. I understand that a lot of it extends from the fear that DOJ might fold as the other three did but that doesn't mean we must bash everything just because it's not Hero.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

When I'm visiting my newfound friends, M&T, I don't sit there and talk about how much better I know my ex-roommates, W&B. I don't talk about how much more I like them because we understand each other better, have more history between us, and they've lent us money. Were I to do such an appallingly rude thing, I would expect to be escorted out with an exclamation of, "Well, why don't you go visit them, then?"

 

You're in Hero's house, yet you're bad-mouthing the members of the community. In what version of society is that how civil people behave?

[MitchellS]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

When I'm visiting my newfound friends, M&T, I don't sit there and talk about how much better I know my ex-roommates, W&B. I don't talk about how much more I like them because we understand each other better, have more history between us, and they've lent us money. Were I to do such an appallingly rude thing, I would expect to be escorted out with an exclamation of, "Well, why don't you go visit them, then?"

 

You're in Hero's house, yet you're bad-mouthing the members of the community. In what version of society is that how civil people behave?

When did we become civil? When did saying M&M = filth show its civility? Again, glass houses.

[Kristopher]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

In your opinion. Some people like that level of random.

 

In your opinion. Some people like that level of structure.

 

It is your opinion that it not mapping to reality well makes it a bad system to use for a role playing game. Some people would disagree with that.

 

Again, your opinion. I'm not saying your opinion isn't a valid opinion. Heck, I for the most part agree with it. But it is still an opinion, not an objective measure of what makes one RPG "better" than another.

 

 

This is just going to turn into one of those issues where I get frustrated by the "opinion meme" that has infested our society over recent decades -- sometimes, people are actually wrong, and there can actually be objective standards.

 

There's a certain thing that an PRG is supposed to be, and the three things I listed off run counter to that thing. Randomness takes away from role-playing and contributes to roll-playing. Class-based systems take away from the ability to play a certain character/role. Armor Class and the like constrain the way in which different characters engage in combat and makes it all feel the same -- there's no functional difference between evading damage and blocking it.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

When did we become civil? When did saying M&M = filth show its civility? Again' date=' glass houses.[/quote']

 

I don't remember saying that; was I posting in my sleep?

 

I've had an awful lot of civil discussions without any of this closed-mindedness you're going on about; I remember being welcomed in. I found that asking my questions in a polite and civil manner got them answered just as politely, and people were most helpful.

[hancock.tom]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

I didn't avoid them. I was typing. Sorry if it wasn't fast enough for you.

 

I waited an hour and a half. Did you take a dinner break?

 

I guess its hard to type with big gorilla fingers.

[stan da ork]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

Just to refute the poster (who shall remain nameless) who claimed that us HERO fans are all closed minded:

 

I have been playing tabletop RPG's for over half my life. I have played Basic D&D, AD&D, D&D 3.0 and 3.5; Star Wars d6 and d20; d20 Modern; Shadowrun 2, 3, and 4; GURPS in various genres; HERO in fantasy and supers; all five of the original World of Darkness games; Exalted; and a smattering of other games like Rifts, Deadlands, Heavy Gear, Tribe 8, Paranoia, In Nomine, Legend of the Five Rings, Seventh Sea, Earthdawn, and Feng Shui (the best RPG ever created by the hands of man). I have enjoyed all these games at some point or another (or I wouldn't have played them). Some of them I keep on enjoying (like Feng Shui, the aforementioned best RPG ever created by the hands of man), some of them I stop playing as I realize they are not my cup of tea.

 

d20 is not my cup of tea. I know this because I played D&D 3.0 and 3.5 for over a year, d20 Star Wars for six months, and d20 Modern for about three. The core mechanic is too random (1d20 is a linear distribution as opposed to a curve), most elements of the system don't feel like they fit well together (ability scores v. skills v. feats), the default spell casting rules are crap ("spells per day" is idiotic), it is level based (an archaic concept to say the least), the default character creation and advancement rules include randomness (the dice should NEVER dictate what sort of character I can play), and (and this is my biggest gripe with d20) most d20 games give the illusion of flexibility in character design, without actually providing that flexibility (shoe-horning all characters into a few basic classes for that particular flavor of d20). This is why I don't try M&M - because I fail to see how it could rectify all of d20's flaws.

 

I once met a kid at college who tried to argue that AD&D (the infamous second edition) was a great game system, because with a two inch binder full of house rules, it was a really fun game. That is how I feel about d20 - that with a huge binder full of house rules, it could be a really fun game. But why should I spend all that time fixing d20, when I can play some other system that is far less broken to begin with?

 

All that being said, I don't really play much HERO these days. I mostly just use it to build characters and try out wacky Power ideas. It too has things about it which I dislike - I hate the 3d6 roll under mechanic (and hated it in GURPS, too), I think some elements of the system aren't costed correctly, and I wish they would quit clinging on to Talents like they need to be separate from Powers. But to me, these issues can be solved pretty simply. And HERO's other virtues, like being truly flexible, and allowing me to truly build anything (as a previous poster already said), far outweigh the bits I don't like.

 

--- DISCLAIMER ---

I have finished defending my dislike of the d20 system, and my defense of HERO. If you don't want to read my inflammatory rant that follows, please feel free to skip ahead to the next post.

--- END DISCLAIMER ---

 

You can keep on claiming how closed-minded we HERO fans are all you want, but you don't know us. All you know is what has been posted on this board - a board on the HERO GAMES website, specifically to talk about HERO. I fail to see how you can even begin to think you know enough about all of us to make a generalization like that. In fact, I would go so far as to say it is you who is closed-minded for passing judgement on all fans of the HERO system like that. Welcome to the board, Mr. Pot. Meet Mr. Kettle.

 

The Internet makes people stupid. The way things are going, this world is going to devolve back into cavemen throwing sticks and rocks at each other, and it will probably be due, in large part, to the Internet.

 

I willingly accept any disciplinary action that is necessary for my above comments. However, they needed to be said, and I'm tired of sitting idly by while ignorant people sling derogatory comments at me and other people I respect, solely because we have a difference of opinion.

[archermoo]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

And I'm not flamebaiting. I'm just extending my opinion of what I have seen on these Hero boards over the last year. There's too much non-Hero game bashing going on here, IMO. I understand that a lot of it extends from the fear that DOJ might fold as the other three did but that doesn't mean we must bash everything just because it's not Hero.

 

You seem to have this fixation that DOJ is going to fold any minute now. You've been predicting it for the last several years. Yet they are still here. I have no fear that DOJ will fold anytime in the near (or far for that matter) future.

 

And I see much less bashing of other systems here than I see on the boards for other systems, but then again I haven't been looking much at the boards for other systems in the last couple of years so I suppose things might have calmed down recently. But I do think you are overreacting in saying the Hero community in general has a "narrow bigoted attitude" because one person who dosn't like D20 said something bad about your current favourite system.

 

And while you use "we" a fair amount, quite a lot of people don't consider you to be a part of this community, regardless of how long you've been here, or even how long you've been a Hero player. They see your negative, Hero bashing attitude, and see you as an M&M player come over to try and stir up bad feelings.

[MitchellS]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

I waited an hour and a half. Did you take a dinner break?

 

I guess its hard to type with big gorilla fingers.

It was 5:46 when she said I failed to answer her questions to her liking, and 5:55 when I answered her second post. That's the best I could do with my furry digits.

[MitchellS]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

You seem to have this fixation that DOJ is going to fold any minute now. You've been predicting it for the last several years. Yet they are still here. I have no fear that DOJ will fold anytime in the near (or far for that matter) future.

 

And I see much less bashing of other systems here than I see on the boards for other systems, but then again I haven't been looking much at the boards for other systems in the last couple of years so I suppose things might have calmed down recently. But I do think you are overreacting in saying the Hero community in general has a "narrow bigoted attitude" because one person who dosn't like D20 said something bad about your current favourite system.

 

And while you use "we" a fair amount, quite a lot of people don't consider you to be a part of this community, regardless of how long you've been here, or even how long you've been a Hero player. They see your negative, Hero bashing attitude, and see you as an M&M player come over to try and stir up bad feelings.

Well I've only been an M&M player for 3 months.

[hancock.tom]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

Amen Stan. Repped.

[MitchellS]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

Just to refute the poster (who shall remain nameless) who claimed that us HERO fans are all closed minded:

 

I have been playing tabletop RPG's for over half my life. I have played Basic D&D, AD&D, D&D 3.0 and 3.5; Star Wars d6 and d20; d20 Modern; Shadowrun 2, 3, and 4; GURPS in various genres; HERO in fantasy and supers; all five of the original World of Darkness games; Exalted; and a smattering of other games like Rifts, Deadlands, Heavy Gear, Tribe 8, Paranoia, In Nomine, Legend of the Five Rings, Seventh Sea, Earthdawn, and Feng Shui (the best RPG ever created by the hands of man). I have enjoyed all these games at some point or another (or I wouldn't have played them). Some of them I keep on enjoying (like Feng Shui, the aforementioned best RPG ever created by the hands of man), some of them I stop playing as I realize they are not my cup of tea.

 

d20 is not my cup of tea. I know this because I played D&D 3.0 and 3.5 for over a year, d20 Star Wars for six months, and d20 Modern for about three. The core mechanic is too random (1d20 is a linear distribution as opposed to a curve), most elements of the system don't feel like they fit well together (ability scores v. skills v. feats), the default spell casting rules are crap ("spells per day" is idiotic), it is level based (an archaic concept to say the least), the default character creation and advancement rules include randomness (the dice should NEVER dictate what sort of character I can play), and (and this is my biggest gripe with d20) most d20 games give the illusion of flexibility in character design, without actually providing that flexibility (shoe-horning all characters into a few basic classes for that particular flavor of d20). This is why I don't try M&M - because I fail to see how it could rectify all of d20's flaws.

 

I once met a kid at college who tried to argue that AD&D (the infamous second edition) was a great game system, because with a two inch binder full of house rules, it was a really fun game. That is how I feel about d20 - that with a huge binder full of house rules, it could be a really fun game. But why should I spend all that time fixing d20, when I can play some other system that is far less broken to begin with?

 

All that being said, I don't really play much HERO these days. I mostly just use it to build characters and try out wacky Power ideas. It too has things about it which I dislike - I hate the 3d6 roll under mechanic (and hated it in GURPS, too), I think some elements of the system aren't costed correctly, and I wish they would quit clinging on to Talents like they need to be separate from Powers. But to me, these issues can be solved pretty simply. And HERO's other virtues, like being truly flexible, and allowing me to truly build anything (as a previous poster already said), far outweigh the bits I don't like.

 

--- DISCLAIMER ---

I have finished defending my dislike of the d20 system, and my defense of HERO. If you don't want to read my inflammatory rant that follows, please feel free to skip ahead to the next post.

--- END DISCLAIMER ---

 

You can keep on claiming how closed-minded we HERO fans are all you want, but you don't know us. All you know is what has been posted on this board - a board on the HERO GAMES website, specifically to talk about HERO. I fail to see how you can even begin to think you know enough about all of us to make a generalization like that. In fact, I would go so far as to say it is you who is closed-minded for passing judgement on all fans of the HERO system like that. Welcome to the board, Mr. Pot. Meet Mr. Kettle.

 

The Internet makes people stupid. The way things are going, this world is going to devolve back into cavemen throwing sticks and rocks at each other, and it will probably be due, in large part, to the Internet.

 

I willingly accept any disciplinary action that is necessary for my above comments. However, they needed to be said, and I'm tired of sitting idly by while ignorant people sling derogatory comments at me and other people I respect, solely because we have a difference of opinion.

And yet you played no M&M and called it filth on no more basis then the fact that it's not Hero. How civil of you.

[stan da ork]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

Not wanting to try a single game system (based on prior experience with other, similar systems, I might add) does not make someone closed-minded.

 

Edit:

Oh yeah, and calling a game system filth is hardly the same thing as insulting actual people. The game system doesn't care what I think. It has no feelings.

[archermoo]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

This is just going to turn into one of those issues where I get frustrated by the "opinion meme" that has infested our society over recent decades -- sometimes, people are actually wrong, and there can actually be objective standards.

 

There's a certain thing that an PRG is supposed to be, and the three things I listed off run counter to that thing. Randomness takes away from role-playing and contributes to roll-playing. Class-based systems take away from the ability to play a certain character/role. Armor Class and the like constrain the way in which different characters engage in combat and makes it all feel the same -- there's no functional difference between evading damage and blocking it.

 

Yes, there are times when there actually can be objective standards, and people can indeed be wrong. And often are. This just isn't one of them. Just because the level of randomness that a single d20 brings to a game makes it less fun for you doesn't mean it makes it less for for everyone. Same thing with classes and levels. Lots of people like to have that kind of structure in their RPGs, and hate games that don't have it. I've known quite a number of them in my life. That doesn't make their fun wrong, just different than yours. And some people like the "simplicity" of the AC system, regardless of how accurate it is.

 

Just because these are not things you are looking for in a role playing game doesn't mean that the people that ARE looking for these things are wrong. That is a mindset that I find to be more and more prevalent, and get more and more annoyed with it as I keep seeing it. Different people are looking for different things in an RPG. If they aren't looking for the same thing that you are, that doesn't make them wrong. Just different. I'll never understand why some people feel that their type of fun has to be the "right" type of fun before it is fun for them.

[archermoo]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

Well I've only been an M&M player for 3 months.

 

I didn't say they were right, just that I've seen/heard people expressing that opinion.