Michael Hopcroft Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... When I saw the thread title, I immediately thought of the uyltimate RPG absurdity -- using rules to define how you eat your lunch, how long it takes you to eat your lunch, and whether eating your lunch is actually enjoyable. I wonder if there are times when you will need to make a roll to succeed in eating something and keeping it down, though -- strongly seasoned foreign food you're not used to, for example, or when the whole Earth is being ransomed and the future survival of homo sapiens depends entirely on your being able to eat the Alien Princess's cooking (classified as a Weapon of Mass Destruction in three thousand star systems) and show relish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlascott Posted January 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... The art in MnM is pretty as it is in full colour but it is not actually that good. A lot of hero books have much better artwork' date=' but it just is not consistent.[/quote'] ?????????????WHAT????????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlascott Posted January 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... As far as I'm concerned - M&M = d20 and d20 = filth therefore M&M = filth QED Now HERE is something I can agree with. HERO has better rules, for sure. But GR sure knows how to put a book together and make you wwant to play in the genre they are selling... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlascott Posted January 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... When I see people posting things saying M&M = filth then that tells me those are the same types of people who post on other boards about how you need a calculus degree to play Hero; it's the exact same narrow bigoted attitude. Part of that attitude might stem from the fact that the new blood in Hero didn't live through the dark years but in any event I still find those types of attitudes to be a negative mark up on the whole Hero community. Glass houses and all that. It is not a bigoted attitude to have played d20 and have concluded that it is broken, broken, broken. Because, objectively, it is. For alot of reasons. I'm sure the cat was saying "filth" as a sort of tongue in cheek way of meaning "Me no likey." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlascott Posted January 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... -- sometimes' date=' people are actually wrong, and there can actually be objective standards. [/quote'] Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yes, one game system CAN be better than any other in any particular context. Everything is NOT just opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... Thank you' date=' thank you, thank you. Yes, one game system CAN be better than any other in any particular context. Everything is NOT just opinion.[/quote'] And so what objective measure do you use to determine "better" in this instance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... For what it's worth: I thought that stan da ork's "filth" opinion was unnecessarily derogatory. But that's very much the exception around here, generally and for him in particular. I thought that MitchellS's reaction to it was unnecessarily harsh. But that's very much the exception around here, generally and for him in particular. I have seen fairly extreme reactions posted on these forums about some games, including HERO itself. But that's very much the exception around here, particularly in contrast to some other gaming forums that I visit, such as RPGnet. I remember a few years back when a newcomer to HERO came onto the boards with the fervor of a new convert, praising HERO while contrasting it with D20 in pretty negative terms. A series of responding posters chided him (pretty calmly overall IMO) for running down another game and the people who played it, to the point where he protested that he was being persecuted for loving HERO. That's something I personally have yet to see on another gaming forum. (I could dig up the specific thread if anyone needs to see it.) I've found the HERO online community to be generally calm, reasonable and open to dissenting opinions, as far as such communities go. There are certainly exceptions, but they're a long, long way from being the rule. I'm afraid I don't really see the benefit in generalizing about any of these communities based on a few aberrant examples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stan da ork Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... Now that I seem to have started quite the s***storm, let me clarify something. As I pointed out in my follow up rant, you don't know me. Because if you did, you'd know that by "filth," I meant "me no likee," as put forth by atlascott. Call me what you will, but bigoted I am not. Sarcastic and cynical, certainly. I was not trying to insult anyone who likes M&M or other d20 systems. I was trying to insult d20, and as I have already said, the system doesn't care what I think, and won't get its feelings hurt. If d20 fans feel the need to take personal offense when someone doesn't like their game system, that's their problem, not mine. Most of the people I game with like d20. I'm the odd man out. Thus, I end up "getting" to play more d20 than I would like, and sometimes feel the need to send some return fire its way. I am not some "HERO is teh win, others r teh suck!" fanboy. I like several systems more than HERO (Feng Shui!). One of the projects I keep meaning to get on is to put together a set of house rules to fix all of the various crap about HERO I don't like. Anyway, I would also like to thank everyone who rose to my defense. As I said, I respect a great number of the people on this board, and I'm glad to see that apparently I am also respected. Anyway, back our regularly scheduled flame war... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlascott Posted January 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... And so what objective measure do you use to determine "better" in this instance? HERO is a complete, logical system. d20 is different with every genre, and introduces new/different rules in every book. HERO system allows for a more realistic character progression. d20 levelling destroys campaign continuity by allowing characters, in a few levels become exponentially more powerful. HERO mimics reality better because you can build a more organic, real character. d20 showhorns everyone into or more classes. These are just a couple examples. HERO mimics reality better, and mimics fictional source material based on a fictional reality better as a result. Just because some people irrationally prefer a less consistent, more random system DOES NOT mean that have rational, objective reasons for it. They might have an OPINION that the game is "more funnerer" even if it is not objectively better. How's that grab you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... HERO is a complete, logical system. d20 is different with every genre, and introduces new/different rules in every book. HERO system allows for a more realistic character progression. d20 levelling destroys campaign continuity by allowing characters, in a few levels become exponentially more powerful. HERO mimics reality better because you can build a more organic, real character. d20 showhorns everyone into or more classes. These are just a couple examples. HERO mimics reality better, and mimics fictional source material based on a fictional reality better as a result. Just because some people irrationally prefer a less consistent, more random system DOES NOT mean that have rational, objective reasons for it. They might have an OPINION that the game is "more funnerer" even if it is not objectively better. How's that grab you? It grabs me as a well stated opinion. But it is still just that; an opinion. You've decided what you are looking for in a game, which is good. But you've also decided that if people don't agree with your opinions about what makes a game good they've made a mistake. Not everyone is interested in having a game that mimics reality better. Some people like the structure of classes and levels give a system. And by the way, I for the most part agree with your opinion. But I don't try to pretend my opinion is something other than an opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlascott Posted January 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... All Your Rpg Are Belong To Us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kave99 Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... i think D20 is at about the same place hero was say 20 years ago with new rules in every book perhaps in 20 years it will catch up naww wont happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Squirrel Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... All Your Rpg Are Belong To Us. Move Zig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hancock.tom Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... In A.D. 2101, HERO flamewar was beginning. You are on the way to destruction. You have no chance to survive make your time. For Great Justice All your RPG are belong to us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hopcroft Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... Move Zig. For Great Justice! Send them up the Bomb! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... Main screen turn on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incrdbil Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... I cant say much about the M&M art. I've always been very uncaring about artwork. Ugly artwork can be annoying, but I just dont focus on it. It's the product I care about. Too much artwork, good or bad, and I start to feel ripped off, that I'm buying filer material. The most value I'll attach to artwork is a cover that catches an eye. But some plain, distinctive covers can do that as well. Beyond that, the actual influence of art in making people buy into a system (and buying intro ANY RPG system anymore is no longer a cheap matter) I've never seen any offerred proof, surveys, studies where artwork wasn't somethign cited as a primary motivator. Comments about art always seem to support an already inherent lie, or dislike. Then their is the art snob facotr reviewers feel they have to do just to prove they are a reviewer--someone blathering on in a review about game art like they have an art degree, or any other qualification beyond their personal likes that have no subjective merit. So..whew, long winded start, from perusing the PDF and the actrual content in it, I feel lunch should be pretty safe. I'm not worried about any d20 game quality wise, because by the time you add enough custom rules in to a d20 based game to be really good, its probably not d20 anymore (different rules for damage, no AC, levels, feats, redo characteristic no classes, different magic/power rules), except in using a twenty sider. As for the Hero posters being as one thing or another...--I dont think Hero gamers, as a group, have an inherent superiority or inferiority to any other group. We're gamers, with a wide variety of commitment or caring about anything. You could draw assumptions in general (very few of us have a fear of large books) but even then, you have those who would challenge that ("the books too darn big!" debates) When someone called M&M filth, note it was qualified as d20 = filth, M&M being equavalent, and drawing their own conclusion. No commentary about M&M players, or the background, the setting, but a simple disdain based on the system base. I have the d20 Silver Age Sentinels book. (Only because it was a 5 dollar bargain bin buy). I can say I hate the d20 rules system for it, and what I read of the conversions really doesn't give me any motivation to try the parent system at all, I would loathe building a character in the d20 version--but their are aspects of the characters, and general information I found well worth using. I may not care for the system, but the hearts of the people who made it in their attitude toward superheroes and genre are in the right place. I suspect the same of M&M--in the end, the system may nto grab me, but its not made (and played) by evil pod people. Sure, their is talk on this board of why people like or dislike other systems. It's common to every board--gamers with a common interest talking about other games. Perhaps I'm biased, but I've seen nothing too outrageous or venemous. Certain themes are common, especially views about the d20 system, and its evolutionary ancestors in D&D and AD&D. D20 being a pretty poor system in general isnt an exactly new, or uncommon to any gaming forum. Its origins lie back from the moment RPG's were made that didn't simpy copy D&D's class/charactertistic/level system. To be som motivayed by one flippant comment to proclaim vigourously Hero players are is a bit reactionary. I myself don't mind the expansions of the genre of superhero gaming. Maybe i suffer from a 10 point Overconfidence in gaming system--I think new people may be drawn into superhero gaming by them, and of those new people, a certain percentage will eventually migrate to Hero as people seek out a system that does a better job of providing the gaming experience they want. I happen to believe that Hero will do that over any system thats d20 based. as for the non d20 based systems, who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kave99 Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... I myself don't mind the expansions of the genre of superhero gaming. Maybe i suffer from a 10 point Overconfidence in gaming system--I think new people may be drawn into superhero gaming by them' date=' and of those new people, a certain percentage will eventually migrate to Hero as people seek out a system that does a better job of providing the gaming experience they want. I happen to believe that Hero will do that over any system thats d20 based. as for the non d20 based systems, who knows?[/quote'] I could not agree more with this statement! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... THe system is nice, it weirds me out when I play it though. There's like 200 pages of rules so it's "Rules light" except to get superhuman strength you need a stat and at least one more power. so...streamlined it isn't so much. the art is hit or miss, Storn has asome nice pics in there but some of the work is pedestrian and color dooesn't hide that. I've read it a couple of time and played a couple of time, but it didn't steal me from my HERO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceTheOwl Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... Josh raises a good point, about how many Hero players WILL play d20, and how few d20 players will play Hero. When I see a thread inquiring about a certain system, or complaining about it, even, most replies start with, "I played that one back in . . ." Not, "It's not Hero, so I won't play it," but, "I tried it and prefer Hero." How is that closed-minded? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... I enjoy D&D derivatives because they're quick and simple. They're nice beer and pretzels type games, and I like the level of abstraction they contain. No system is going to accurately simulate combat, and the more complex a rules system becomes, the more unrealistic I find it. At least with an abstract system, I can visualize it to my tastes. Quick advancement? Not a problem. I don't have time to play that often, anyway, so I'd like to see some development in the short playing time I have available. Lack of "role-play"? That has to do with your players, not the game system. Same old jokes? That's the players, not the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualplayer Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... This started off poorly with the thread title. It couldn't be more confrontational if it was "M&M pees in HERO's cheerios." HERO is that B&W comic that you love but can't get your comic buddies to try for some damn reason. Silver Age Sentinels is a trade paperback of Essential X-Men. Mutants & Masterminds is early 90's Wildstorm/Image. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... For what it's worth: I thought that stan da ork's "filth" opinion was unnecessarily derogatory. But that's very much the exception around here, generally and for him in particular. I thought that MitchellS's reaction to it was unnecessarily harsh. But that's very much the exception around here, generally and for him in particular. I have seen fairly extreme reactions posted on these forums about some games, including HERO itself. But that's very much the exception around here, particularly in contrast to some other gaming forums that I visit, such as RPGnet. I remember a few years back when a newcomer to HERO came onto the boards with the fervor of a new convert, praising HERO while contrasting it with D20 in pretty negative terms. A series of responding posters chided him (pretty calmly overall IMO) for running down another game and the people who played it, to the point where he protested that he was being persecuted for loving HERO. That's something I personally have yet to see on another gaming forum. (I could dig up the specific thread if anyone needs to see it.) I've found the HERO online community to be generally calm, reasonable and open to dissenting opinions, as far as such communities go. There are certainly exceptions, but they're a long, long way from being the rule. I'm afraid I don't really see the benefit in generalizing about any of these communities based on a few aberrant examples. I have to disagree with you conclusion concerning MitchellS. He has disparaged the HERO community consistently. This is nothing new. That it is part of a continuing trend is why I will report his post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... ?????????????WHAT????????????? **cough*Storn*cough** Hero has indeed had some superior artwork, but the presentation choice of utility versus flash (in layouts) and B&W vs color has made folk kinda overlook a lot of the top end work that has appeared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: Eating your lunch... Superhero game systems Champions has outlived: V&V Superworld Marvel Super Heroes, 1st Edition DC Heroes, 1st Edition Marvel Super Heroes, 2nd Edition DC Heroes, 2nd Edition Aberrant Marvel SAGA DC Heroes for West End d6 system Marvel game(the one using pente stones) Underground Godlike, Silver Age Sentinels, and a few others will probably also die off I'm sure I've left off a few others to be sure, a d20-based game is a challenge, because of the installed user-base, but I have my doubts as to its durability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.