Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

[Thia Halmades]

Originally Posted in Dark Champions, I've bumped it here.

 

Good morning.

 

I've been chewing over this idea quite a bit, as always happens with me I have too many imaginations for one to hold them all, so I'm going to post some initial thoughts I have here on building my NWO for Giant Robots.

 

Influences: I grew up playing Battletech as my first real "board game" that I didn't hate - this is because it involves guns and (wait for it...) Giant Robots. Who doesn't love Giant Robots? There's a very gritty feel to that world which I've rarely found replicated elsewhere. The other game that I loved to play on my PC was Heavy Gear II, possibly one of the greatest examples of how Giant Robots can be stealthy ever.

 

I've also seen all of Neon Genesis Evangelion, bits & pieces of Gundam, Voltron and I just finished Macross Plus. There's a look & feel there among all of these that I'm going for, all wrapped in an overarc that I'm still figuring out. I'm currently playing the original Xenogears on my PS1 (with LCD screen! So I can play Giant Robot RPG and watch SportsCenter at the same time).

 

Design: One of my core design philosophies is popcorn. Start small - a single sentence, or concept - and explode it into something much greater. This campaign first took life about eight months ago as an attempted Sci Fi campaign which was short lived; its an extension of the Fantasy Epic world I'm currently running.

 

One of the central concepts is that the various planes of existance are like planetary bodies - they move, spin, form conjuctions, come into and out of alignment. These metaphysical forces exert real influence on the physical world. When Hell is Waxing things get more chaotic; you could consider, in this model, the Prime Material Plane is the 'sun' - all things revolve around it. I never bothered asking "why" this is - souls of man, what have you - it just is. That aside.

 

At this point in the history (Giant Robots) Hell has managed to disrupt the orbit completely, and has left the world in a state of post-apocalypse, so you could consider this war-torn, Demon Invading Giant Robot HERO. Within the confines of that there are giant monsters (from "really large" up through "Oh dear G-d") soldiers, warring nations, etc.

 

To maintain my sense of scale I'm considering placing the Giant Robots around 15 - 20" in height (roughly 2 to 3 hexes tall). Larger ones are an option, but are less economical to build and power, and power armors present their own problems, although I envision them existing.

 

Giant Robots: Because I've played so much Battletech I'm likely going to keep some basic constructions from that system, including graded lasers (Light, Medium, Heavy) Pulse Lasers, Flamers, SRMs (Short Range Missiles) LRMs (Long Range Missiles) and so on. There are things I'm going to have to really delve into TUV to learn how to do properly, including:

 

- Hard Points. I want a lot of differentiation among robot designs, and to an extent I'd like the PCs free to design & build their own within reason. "This is my Scout Mech. There are many others like it, but this one's mine." I don't want Scout Mecha wandering around with 8 Hard Points packing dozens of SRMs and Gauss Rifles.

 

- Armor, will for the most part, be Hardened and I'm considering giving Mech Class weapons "Armor Piercing" at one level for free, to demonstrate that Mech Class weapons are build to bust through Mech Class armor; I'd like to do this in such a fashion that doesn't involve a ton of Handwavium 984, an element I try to avoid as much as possible.

 

- SPD. Small mechs are more responsive (per TUVs explanation) than Large Ones. A small mech should also be able to cover more distance than a large one, however. However. An Assault Mech may very well be able to unload all sorts of pieces of its arsenal even if it can't move very far.

 

- Facing. Mechs classically have swiveling torsos, capable of changing facing while moving in a different direction entirely. This is true in Battletech and in Heavy Gear; the "torso" would likely count as a "turret" capable of independent movement, I'll be checking the rules on that.

 

The world is caught in an ongoing struggle; mecha units are scattered, empires have fallen, pirate camps have arisen and as the book says, human life is cheap - mechs are priceless. I envision mecha rolling out and engaging demons (15' ers like Balrogs and their ilk) on a blasted wasteland, holding onto the last vestiges of their own territory.

 

Governmental conflicts would involve underground resistance movements, ancient empires still clinging desperately to life, raiders, evil men forwarding their agendas by making pacts with the Dark Lords.

 

Setting would include: Melee weapons as well as hand held firearms; no one ever developed the tech to fuel a hand-held energy weapon, although Vibrablades and magnetic disruptors aren't unheard of. Synthitex is the explosive of choice and used to blow off mecha limbs in a fashion similar to sticky bombs undoing tank treads in WW2.

 

The PCs would be mecha pilots, possibly trained, possibly not.

 

Ritual Magic exists and can be used, but would begin locked from PC use (as generally only the Demons & their servants can use it, but this is a separate thread).

 

I've chosen Dark Champions because it contains the requisite super skills and feel closest to what I'm thinking of to synch up and match the vision of the world I have.

 

Those are some initial thoughts. Feel free to add, beg, borrow, steal, clarify, point out errors and flaws, direct me to additional material.

 

Post Apocalyptic may be a misnomer - my vision of the world is much more intact than that.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

And the replies on that thread:

 

Have you thought about picking up the Robot Warriors PDF? It is based on early Hero system rules (2nd Edition or so) but should be quite easy to adapt to 5th Edition. I still have a copy around here somewhere. Its a pretty neat little book. It could provide some useful ideas and rule mechanics.

 

That may be a good place to start. I'm going to be spending a lot of time this weekend figuring out how to build "different" Giant Robots, which is a big concern of mine. I don't think it's "right" that Active Points should be the deciding factor; a light mech will have less AP than an Assault Mech, but it'll also be faster and have more sensors/gear/doo-dads than any Assault Class should or would (because in part it's hard to hide an assault mech).

 

Edit: I'll get a copy from Noble Knight Games, they have it used. Thanks for the tip! I'll let you know if it's of any use! Thanks for the link, but PDFs do me zippy in the good dept. I have to have a book, I'm hermetic like that. ~DEM

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edsel

Have you thought about picking up the Robot Warriors PDF? It is based on early Hero system rules (2nd Edition or so) but should be quite easy to adapt to 5th Edition. I still have a copy around here somewhere. Its a pretty neat little book. It could provide some useful ideas and rule mechanics.

 

 

It's actually a pretty nice mecha game, with rules tailored to the conventions of the genre, and the PDF is cheap for what you get. It does have some significant differences from Fifth Edition HERO, though.

 

OTOH one of our board colleagues, Chris Goodwin, has posted pretty detailed notes on how to blend Robot Warriors with 5ER to create a pretty kick@$$ giant-robo game. You can view Chris's notes on his website, here.

 

BTW if you'd like to see examples of various mecha built according to standard Fifth Edition rules' date=' as well as suggestions for how to build them, may I suggest following the link in my signature, below, and checking the listings for [i']Battletech[/i] and Robotech? Tons of interesting and useful stuff there.

 

Darn it all as if I haven't got enought stuff diverting my attention now this thread has got me thinking about giant robot games again.

 

BTW thenks for the Link to Mr. Goodwin's sight LL I'll have to read all about it.

 

Interesting' date=' I'll have to review it more in depth once I have [i']Robot Warriors [/i]and I've read through it at length. I know in part that my mecha are going to have an "anime" feel to them - I want the PCs to have really slick rides, and it's part of the blend of genre that I'm going for.

 

As I've often been told: Don't play (game) and call it HERO - build what you want in HERO and play HERO. Thanks for aiming me in his direction though, I'll get in touch with Chris to see if he can offer clarification.

 

The parts I'm going to have the most trouble with really are building the giant robots, and scaling the fights appropriately against the demonic hordes. The plot and such are the easy bits, but I want to transcend the usual anime tropes and in a sense also go beyond what Battletech does - the story should be about human struggle with Giant Robots, not Giant Robots who solve human struggles.

 

You must understand this, Edsel:

 

I love Giant Robots. I cannot stress this enough. It's a long lasting, deep abiding passion that I've never been able to adequately explain, shake or divulge myself of. I just bought a twelve dollar book with 5 bucks in shipping to fuel this addiction.

 

Hopefully I'll be able to piece together some rules over the weekend; I wholly expect to use Powers as a means of representing giant robot abilities, including cameras, chaff, flares, cloaking devices, heavy weapons, non combat speed on skates/wheels (thank you, Heavy Gear) and other bits and pieces.

 

I think at this point in the history that the mecha are held together as much by spit and prayer as they are by truly talented mechanics. I may also reintroduce the idea of Psionics in this campaign, which would give me an excuse to include mechakinesis and mechatelepathy the skills that allow pilots to go above & beyond their machine specs.

 

I'd also like to have a deep enough political struggle, and human struggle, to make playing in this world worthwhile; the Giant Robots are as much a weapon as they are a vehicle as they are a stamp of the setting. More than anything, I want them to reflect my vision of giant robots, more than I'm looking to replicate Robotech/Battletech/Macross/Southern Cross/Invid Invasion/etc.

 

Dude!

 

Dude!

 

Ask and ye shall receive. Answers, anyway.

 

Genre-wise' date=' I think this sounds more like [i']Star Hero[/i] with elements of Dark Champions and Fantasy Hero. It's a good general feel, though, and I think the overall idea looks really cool.

 

Have you seen The Ultimate Vehicle? There's some material in there regarding mecha.

 

Actually' date=' Bob, I just bought [i']TUV[/i] for this express purpose - I intend to build some of my nastier Demons (keeping in part with the anime feel) as "mecha" and what have you. I think in parts it may even have a kaiju feel to it as it'll take a Lance of fifteen to twenty foot mechs to take down a pair of balrogs who have super-human movement and powers.

 

I'm also going to incorporate parts of CyberHERO for purposes of jacking it, etc. I had an idea similar to NGE wherein the pilot wears a suit loaded with various needles; those needles carry the cocktail of drugs, adrenal enhancers, and electrolytes necessary to withstand the rigors of piloting. The suit is their armor, and the cocktail is tied to a pack in the suit, which plugs into the Mecha. The mecha as part of its onboard functions monitors the health of the pilot and can then, vis a vis its life support sub routine, administer additional drugs from the pilot's supply.

 

The suits are durable, and provide a modicum of protection outside of the mech as well. But that's a separate design.

 

Bob - Believe it, I struggled long and hard before settling on Dark Champions. Star HERO was my first thought, but I discarded it in favor of the 'feel' I want from DC. Fantasy HERO is my impetus because it's what I know best. My sci-fi setting is really closer to "mechapunk" than anything else.

 

Hey, there you go. Mechapunk HERO. That's what I'm building.

 

A very cool bit about Robot Warriors is that you can build monsters or self aware robots using the same mechanics, and it gives an example of how.

 

Note: The robot building rules are compatible with Hero, but none of those rules have actually survived to Fifth Edition. They're not the same rules as the vehicle or power building rules in modern Hero.

 

Chris - so the rules are wholly compatible? I don't have to reinvent the wheel to accomplish this? Have you read TUV? Does it cover similar mechanics' date=' or did I do right by buying [i']Robot Warriors[/i]?

 

Well... by compatible I meant that they were usable with the Hero System in their day' date=' which is to say with a subset of Hero. You'll need to tweak them some to make them wholly compatible with Fifth Edition. The mechanics themselves are still good -- you could play a whole campaign using just the RW book, but there are things that were done one way that are done a different way now. I'm assuming you've bought the RW PDF? Take a look at my page to see what's changed.

 

RW doesn't use the Hero power building system to achieve effects, though the mecha hardware building system is similar.

 

I have read TUV, and TUV uses the Hero vehicle building system. The RW mecha building system is incompatible with the Hero vehicle building system.

 

I hope I didn't cause any confusion.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

Battletech/Mechwarrior Hero Resources

http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/showthread.php?t=31861

 

 

 

Cheers

 

QM

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

Ah, yes, but if I wanted to play Battletech I'd play Battletech - I haven't decided yet how much I want to keep, how much I want to toss. There are conventions I'm looking to retain and others I will merrily discard.

 

Specifically, though, this isn't "Battletech for HERO." It's Mechapunk. Psionics, demons, giant robots, ancient rituals, pacts with dark lords, dead zones of intraplanar activity, and other insanity.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

ROBOT WARRIORS™ to HERO System® FIFTH EDITION (Thanks Chris Goodwin)

http://home.comcast.net/~archer7/rw2hero.html

 

KAZEI-5, Silent Mobius Zeta, 3x3 Eyes, etc... (Thanks Susano)

http://surbrook.devermore.net/index/worldbooks.html

 

Psychic Wars (Thanks Allen)

http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/showthread.php?t=28257&highlight=Psychic+Wars

 

Hero Games Product Recogmendations;

1. The Ultimate Mystic

2. Ninja Hero

3. DEMON

4. The HERO System Bestiary

5. Arcane Adversaries

 

Future Hero Game Releases

1. Psychic Wars - Indefinite Delay

2. Horror Hero

3. The Asian Bestiary (I & II)

4. Cyber Hero

5. The Celtic Bestiary

 

 

Cheers

 

QM

[Guest Major Tom]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

Originally Posted in Dark Champions' date=' I've bumped it here.[/i']

 

Good morning.

 

I've been chewing over this idea quite a bit, as always happens with me I have too many imaginations for one to hold them all, so I'm going to post some initial thoughts I have here on building my NWO for Giant Robots.

 

Influences: I grew up playing Battletech as my first real "board game" that I didn't hate - this is because it involves guns and (wait for it...) Giant Robots. Who doesn't love Giant Robots? There's a very gritty feel to that world which I've rarely found replicated elsewhere. The other game that I loved to play on my PC was Heavy Gear II, possibly one of the greatest examples of how Giant Robots can be stealthy ever.

 

I've also seen all of Neon Genesis Evangelion, bits & pieces of Gundam, Voltron and I just finished Macross Plus. There's a look & feel there among all of these that I'm going for, all wrapped in an overarc that I'm still figuring out. I'm currently playing the original Xenogears on my PS1 (with LCD screen! So I can play Giant Robot RPG and watch SportsCenter at the same time).

 

Design: One of my core design philosophies is popcorn. Start small - a single sentence, or concept - and explode it into something much greater. This campaign first took life about eight months ago as an attempted Sci Fi campaign which was short lived; its an extension of the Fantasy Epic world I'm currently running.

 

One of the central concepts is that the various planes of existance are like planetary bodies - they move, spin, form conjuctions, come into and out of alignment. These metaphysical forces exert real influence on the physical world. When Hell is Waxing things get more chaotic; you could consider, in this model, the Prime Material Plane is the 'sun' - all things revolve around it. I never bothered asking "why" this is - souls of man, what have you - it just is. That aside.

 

At this point in the history (Giant Robots) Hell has managed to disrupt the orbit completely, and has left the world in a state of post-apocalypse, so you could consider this war-torn, Demon Invading Giant Robot HERO. Within the confines of that there are giant monsters (from "really large" up through "Oh dear G-d") soldiers, warring nations, etc.

 

To maintain my sense of scale I'm considering placing the Giant Robots around 15 - 20" in height (roughly 2 to 3 hexes tall). Larger ones are an option, but are less economical to build and power, and power armors present their own problems, although I envision them existing.

 

Giant Robots: Because I've played so much Battletech I'm likely going to keep some basic constructions from that system, including graded lasers (Light, Medium, Heavy) Pulse Lasers, Flamers, SRMs (Short Range Missiles) LRMs (Long Range Missiles) and so on. There are things I'm going to have to really delve into TUV to learn how to do properly, including:

 

- Hard Points. I want a lot of differentiation among robot designs, and to an extent I'd like the PCs free to design & build their own within reason. "This is my Scout Mech. There are many others like it, but this one's mine." I don't want Scout Mecha wandering around with 8 Hard Points packing dozens of SRMs and Gauss Rifles.

 

- Armor, will for the most part, be Hardened and I'm considering giving Mech Class weapons "Armor Piercing" at one level for free, to demonstrate that Mech Class weapons are build to bust through Mech Class armor; I'd like to do this in such a fashion that doesn't involve a ton of Handwavium 984, an element I try to avoid as much as possible.

 

- SPD. Small mechs are more responsive (per TUVs explanation) than Large Ones. A small mech should also be able to cover more distance than a large one, however. However. An Assault Mech may very well be able to unload all sorts of pieces of its arsenal even if it can't move very far.

 

- Facing. Mechs classically have swiveling torsos, capable of changing facing while moving in a different direction entirely. This is true in Battletech and in Heavy Gear; the "torso" would likely count as a "turret" capable of independent movement, I'll be checking the rules on that.

 

The world is caught in an ongoing struggle; mecha units are scattered, empires have fallen, pirate camps have arisen and as the book says, human life is cheap - mechs are priceless. I envision mecha rolling out and engaging demons (15' ers like Balrogs and their ilk) on a blasted wasteland, holding onto the last vestiges of their own territory.

 

Governmental conflicts would involve underground resistance movements, ancient empires still clinging desperately to life, raiders, evil men forwarding their agendas by making pacts with the Dark Lords.

 

Setting would include: Melee weapons as well as hand held firearms; no one ever developed the tech to fuel a hand-held energy weapon, although Vibrablades and magnetic disruptors aren't unheard of. Synthitex is the explosive of choice and used to blow off mecha limbs in a fashion similar to sticky bombs undoing tank treads in WW2.

 

The PCs would be mecha pilots, possibly trained, possibly not.

 

Ritual Magic exists and can be used, but would begin locked from PC use (as generally only the Demons & their servants can use it, but this is a separate thread).

 

I've chosen Dark Champions because it contains the requisite super skills and feel closest to what I'm thinking of to synch up and match the vision of the world I have.

 

Those are some initial thoughts. Feel free to add, beg, borrow, steal, clarify, point out errors and flaws, direct me to additional material.

 

Post Apocalyptic may be a misnomer - my vision of the world is much more intact than that.

 

 

In Nomine meets Robot Warriors... As Arte Johnson would say, "Very

Interesting".

 

 

Major Tom

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

"Very heavy resistance... but why are they using such primitive weapons?"

 

Such a classic line from Robotech. Anyway, that idea sounds really awesome. You'll have to let us know how it turns out.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

Ah' date=' yes, but if I wanted to play [i']Battletech[/i] I'd play Battletech - I haven't decided yet how much I want to keep, how much I want to toss. There are conventions I'm looking to retain and others I will merrily discard.

 

Specifically, though, this isn't "Battletech for HERO." It's Mechapunk. Psionics, demons, giant robots, ancient rituals, pacts with dark lords, dead zones of intraplanar activity, and other insanity.

 

So, I'd pull out my copy of RW, a printout of my web page, and Fantasy Hero, crank the weirdometer up to 11, and give the players each 100+150 or so. Maybe say they have to spend a minimum of 75 points on mecha related skills but aside from that anything goes. Maybe go NCM with a variant rule I like to use (let each character take one stat above NCM without doubling).

 

A few years ago there was a guy who ran a similar game using RW and FH. I wish I could find a link, even if it's bad, because http://web.archive.org probably has it cached.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

And upon further consideration:

 

Well, I read through chunks of TUV and knocked about with my copy of COMBAT and UMA. I've also rechecked my own notes on the world itself and started to do some initial write ups of how I want things to feel. I've reached the following conclusions.

 

1. Psionics Are Real. In some of my campaigns its common to encounter something people just patently don't believe in. Even if the consensus is that you can't bend spoons with your brain, reality says "Yes. YES YOU CAN." This was used in my initial sci-fi campaign, and I'm going to keep it here. The feel of Psionics should be subtle - while TK isn't subtle, it's the exception more than the rule.

 

Now there are going to be PCs and villains who use Psionics as their primary power, and those people will have the 'must be subtle' rule broken for them, because in pure anime style I'd love to see the ground rip up, the atmosphere around them shudder, pulsing waves of heat rising off of them as bits of concrete float past thier faces and they fling huge walls of force at each other.

 

I've also been playing Xenogears, which introduces the concept of Ether Machine. A gadget on board that modifies & enhances your C'hi powers. This will be kept, but I have to write up rules for it. I just love the idea of the machines themselves running in tandem with their users, picking up fragments of personality and amplifying it.

 

2. I have a beef with the system. I know now why people yak about the vehicles - I've never had to build vehicles before so it was a non issue, but suddenly it is. Some of this may get resolved when I start reading through Robot Warrior but I honestly don't know. Vehicles are built like people, and they feel like people. There's no reason (other than dramatic sense) to not put a pair of Gauss Rifles on a scout mech.

 

There's also no distinction between an Autocannon on a mech dealing 2d6 RKA Autofire 10, or an Autocannon on a car, other than the Size +DC vs. smaller vehicles rule. This is going to be a huge sticking point.

 

More thoughts as events warrant.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

2. I have a beef with the system. I know now why people yak about the vehicles - I've never had to build vehicles before so it was a non issue' date=' but suddenly it is. Some of this may get resolved when I start reading through [i']Robot Warrior[/i] but I honestly don't know. Vehicles are built like people, and they feel like people. There's no reason (other than dramatic sense) to not put a pair of Gauss Rifles on a scout mech.

 

There's also no distinction between an Autocannon on a mech dealing 2d6 RKA Autofire 10, or an Autocannon on a car, other than the Size +DC vs. smaller vehicles rule. This is going to be a huge sticking point.

 

Thia, these observations are really intriguing to me. That's not a criticism, just a legitimate curiosity about observations from someone looking at the system with fresh eyes.

 

I know that quite a few HERO gamers are dissatisfied that the vehicle builds "feel like people," but I would have thought that for a game featuring anthropomorphic giant robots, that would be a plus.

 

As for distinctions for weapons on different vehicles that are built with the same system stats, "dramatic sense" is pretty much the main distinction with all HERO builds. The only thing that separates a 2D6 RKA Autofire 10 on a mech from the same thing on any other vehicle is special effects.

 

FWIW I've ignored the prohibition on the "Size +DC vs. smaller vehicles" rule from TUV going in the other direction, i.e. smaller vehicle weapons doing less damage against larger ones, and the results of such conflicts have seemed more reasonable to me, especially when using any of the published prewritten vehicles. I even extend that rule to human-size attackers, as Humans would be Size 0; this has largely eliminated the "sink a trireme with arrows" phenomenon.

 

FWIW2, the Robot Warriors construction and combat rules make mecha significantly different from people, which may be more to your liking.

 

I'd be interested if you'd care to expand on your objections.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

2. I have a beef with the system. I know now why people yak about the vehicles - I've never had to build vehicles before so it was a non issue' date=' but suddenly it is. Some of this may get resolved when I start reading through [i']Robot Warrior[/i] but I honestly don't know. Vehicles are built like people, and they feel like people. There's no reason (other than dramatic sense) to not put a pair of Gauss Rifles on a scout mech.

 

If you (and by you I mean generally, not just you Thia) are reading Robot Warriors and have any questions, ask! I'm probably the expert on it.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

I would be happy to clarify. Now mind, this is in part a system design philosophy, so I know automatically not to bring it up as anything other than "Huh, that ain't right," here on the boards. For example, it took me ages to verify that in fact, 2d6 RKA be 2d6 RKA no matter where it is; other than making a "size adjustment" there's no difference. If I want my Giant Robot to have the ability to perceive things at a distance, I give it Clairevoyance as Real Technology, so on and so forth (my short hand for "introduce disads & lims here).

 

On the surface I see where my post was misleading - my giant anthropormorphic robots should, to an extent, move and behave like people. My vision for that, however, is as a special effect. There are many cases where this is very useful and it almost makes the decision to keep the whole thing stream lined necessary. For example:

 

I'm going to build a Giant Robot. I'm going to call this Giant Robot a Halcyon Class. It's a Heavy Mech; it carries more armament and armor than a Scout, Light, Hunter, or Shock class mech. The only thing bigger than a Heavy Mech in this system would be an Assault Mech, and a Mech'o'th'Line - a four treaded battle platform, designed to lay seige to other things, similar to sailing ships gone by. A Mech of the Line is pretty useless in close combat and in many ways breaks the idea "mech" but it runs on the same tech, so it's mentioned here. It also has mobile command platform and repair capability. It's about 7 to 12 times larger than a Heavy Mech.

 

A Heavy Mech under my vision should be equipped with the following:

 

Average to Above Average Running Speed (not to be confused with SPD).(bought as NonCom Running and maybe an extra hex of combat movement).

 

SPD is an ugly stat here because a Heavy Mech can unload a large amount of ordinance in a short time, even if it can't run all that fast. So, SPD 4.

 

It likely carries one (maybe two, maybe a two-handed) Heavy Weapon. Something capable of shredding a tank in a single shot. This may be an Anti-Armor Shotty, a single-shell Recoilless, an Autocannon or a pair of Auto Pistols. Something that says "I own this block" when it walks down the street. The mech is about as long as an M1A1 (four hexes "high" and consumes about a Hex & 1/2 standing).

 

It should have a missile launcher; either an SRM 2/4/6 (fired as 2 Point Body Missiles with Rapid Fire for each pair) or an LRM 10 (fired as Autofire in pairs of 2, a deviation from Battletech, but by the time you hit Autofire 20 the bulk of your missiles are going wide, so I made them roughly equivalent to SRMs in design, that's intentional).

 

Plenty of armor. It can take a hit and keep on moving. Jumping is per Jump Jets which require END in the form of HEAT (I like the HEAT rules and am strongly considering keeping them, and after spending a weekend with the material I am leaning far closer to hybridizing Battletech and Heavy Gear than any single design. Waiting for Robot Warriors now).

 

There are limited "damage" rules for vehicles to represent all the things that can go wrong with them - you can't blow off a limb/turret/leg. There's only BODY and damage rolls if you deal BODY.

 

A sufficiently armored Mecha is going to have a hard time taking damage from anything, although (again, upon reflection) that can be side stepped with various forms of AP rounds etc. Those tend to be more the exception than the rule.

 

By RAW (Rules As Written) a chump with a longbow can deal damage to a Heavy Mech. Wha wha WHAT? Okay, sure, dramatic sense says that's not right for the campaign, but the argument can be made. RKA is RKA, and armor is armor. Now he has a longbow with an AP Teflon Coated arrowhead - and he deals damage to a mech. A vehicle designed to stop hails of gunfire. That just strikes me as ... bizarre.

 

According to those same rules, a Mech with a Recoilless (I'm a big fan of the single shot oh-dear-Gawd rifle) could reasonably deal 6d6 damage. And barely dent an M1A1 (with 30 frontal armor). A great deal of the drama of a mech battle, with limbs flying off, people getting shelled with cannon fire and dodging missile salvos is removed in that design. Enough armor and you're good to go.

 

There's also no distinction, in system, between a Scout vehicle and a Mech of the Line, other than, as Steve would put it, common sense, dramatic sense and game balance. Can I build a Scout Mech, give it less STR and set a Recoilless as requiring a much higher STR to wield effectively? Of course I can, and I considered doing exactly that. But we're back into the vagaries of point definitions.

 

What I love in Battletech and its spirtual successor, the (I think now defunct) Heavy Gear is that there's a strong, clear distinction among vehicle types, and the weapons they carry and the damage they deal. I can see easily changing the rules to accomodate this, using both of our methods.

 

If a Mech with an AA Shotgun walks up to a car, the car should be scrap metal in one hit - it's probably 3 or 4 (or more) size cats smaller than the mech, so it takes an extra 4 DCs of damage. KABLOOIE. Makes sense.

 

A tank should have a chance, but not a good one. Anti Armor Shotgun, GO! KABLOOIE! But then how does one scale in other circumstances? Is the hull of a Mech of the Line just... permeable? I don't want to render it immune to anything, but there's no step between hand held 1d6+1/2 auto revolver and a Mecha's 6 shot AP sidearm.

 

That's a lot of what I'm griping about.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

Hey Chris - my copy should be here... Wednesday? Once I've read it twice and made notes, I'll make with the posting.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

Thank you, TH. That clears things up nicely. Essentially you want to your HERO mecha game to feel more like the ones you've liked in the past, but with the benefits of the HERO System. Which is understandable and reasonable.

 

I believe that when you get Robot Warriors and go over Chris's notes, you'll find that Size Class and Ground Movement deal with some of your concerns about vehicle Speed and movement rates, as well as some issues about combat between mechs of different sizes.

 

Lots of us use rule variants to adjust damage capability in various circumstances - I use a bunch myself - but I'm going to hold off suggesting any more until you've had a chance to digest all the relevant data, and are ready to ask for help with particular issues.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

I'll catch a few of your points here. I'm kinda wanting to do like LL said and wait until you've had a chance to digest the data before throwing more at you.

 

I'm going to build a Giant Robot. I'm going to call this Giant Robot a Halcyon Class. It's a Heavy Mech; it carries more armament and armor than a Scout' date=' Light, Hunter, or Shock class mech. The only thing bigger than a Heavy Mech in this system would be an Assault Mech, and a Mech'o'th'Line - a four treaded battle platform, designed to lay seige to other things, similar to sailing ships gone by. A [i']Mech of the Line[/i] is pretty useless in close combat and in many ways breaks the idea "mech" but it runs on the same tech, so it's mentioned here. It also has mobile command platform and repair capability. It's about 7 to 12 times larger than a Heavy Mech.

 

A Heavy Mech under my vision should be equipped with the following:

 

Average to Above Average Running Speed (not to be confused with SPD).(bought as NonCom Running and maybe an extra hex of combat movement).

 

Easy peasy. Ground Scale and Size Class in RW can help you a lot here.

 

SPD is an ugly stat here because a Heavy Mech can unload a large amount of ordinance in a short time, even if it can't run all that fast. So, SPD 4.

 

RW has a rule called Gangfire; you can fire all of your mecha's weapons in a turn, at a penalty of -2 per weapon.

 

It likely carries one (maybe two, maybe a two-handed) Heavy Weapon. Something capable of shredding a tank in a single shot. This may be an Anti-Armor Shotty, a single-shell Recoilless, an Autocannon or a pair of Auto Pistols. Something that says "I own this block" when it walks down the street. The mech is about as long as an M1A1 (four hexes "high" and consumes about a Hex & 1/2 standing).

 

It should have a missile launcher; either an SRM 2/4/6 (fired as 2 Point Body Missiles with Rapid Fire for each pair) or an LRM 10 (fired as Autofire in pairs of 2, a deviation from Battletech, but by the time you hit Autofire 20 the bulk of your missiles are going wide, so I made them roughly equivalent to SRMs in design, that's intentional).

 

Sure.

 

Plenty of armor. It can take a hit and keep on moving.

 

and

 

There are limited "damage" rules for vehicles to represent all the things that can go wrong with them - you can't blow off a limb/turret/leg. There's only BODY and damage rolls if you deal BODY.

 

By default, RW considers an average mecha to be 14-18 DEF, 30-40 BODY, with weapons that do around 4d6-7d6 killing. It doesn't use hit locations per se, but it does have the Penetration Table. Roll 3d6, add the BODY damage that gets through your robot's armor, then look on the table to see what got hit. It can be anything from disabling limbs or weapons to pilot hits to power plant hits to "Critical Systems Hit: Robot explodes in 1d6-1 Segments."

 

It does leave lots of room for customizing this; the default feel was supposed to be robots taking hits with pieces getting blown off until one or the other quits working. Once you get it, read through it, and see what I mean, post and we'll discuss how to modify it.

 

Jumping is per Jump Jets which require END in the form of HEAT (I like the HEAT rules and am strongly considering keeping them, and after spending a weekend with the material I am leaning far closer to hybridizing Battletech and Heavy Gear than any single design. Waiting for Robot Warriors now).

 

RW doesn't have any specific rules for dealing with END or heat. That never stopped my group; we played numerous Battletech Hero games, numerous Robot Warriors games, and one that was almost a hybrid.

 

A sufficiently armored Mecha is going to have a hard time taking damage from anything, although (again, upon reflection) that can be side stepped with various forms of AP rounds etc. Those tend to be more the exception than the rule.

 

By RAW (Rules As Written) a chump with a longbow can deal damage to a Heavy Mech. Wha wha WHAT? Okay, sure, dramatic sense says that's not right for the campaign, but the argument can be made. RKA is RKA, and armor is armor. Now he has a longbow with an AP Teflon Coated arrowhead - and he deals damage to a mech. A vehicle designed to stop hails of gunfire. That just strikes me as ... bizarre.

 

That's what the Real Weapon Limitation is for, in part.

 

According to those same rules, a Mech with a Recoilless (I'm a big fan of the single shot oh-dear-Gawd rifle) could reasonably deal 6d6 damage. And barely dent an M1A1 (with 30 frontal armor). A great deal of the drama of a mech battle, with limbs flying off, people getting shelled with cannon fire and dodging missile salvos is removed in that design. Enough armor and you're good to go.

 

There's also no distinction, in system, between a Scout vehicle and a Mech of the Line, other than, as Steve would put it, common sense, dramatic sense and game balance. Can I build a Scout Mech, give it less STR and set a Recoilless as requiring a much higher STR to wield effectively? Of course I can, and I considered doing exactly that. But we're back into the vagaries of point definitions.

 

What I love in Battletech and its spirtual successor, the (I think now defunct) Heavy Gear is that there's a strong, clear distinction among vehicle types, and the weapons they carry and the damage they deal. I can see easily changing the rules to accomodate this, using both of our methods.

 

If a Mech with an AA Shotgun walks up to a car, the car should be scrap metal in one hit - it's probably 3 or 4 (or more) size cats smaller than the mech, so it takes an extra 4 DCs of damage. KABLOOIE. Makes sense.

 

A tank should have a chance, but not a good one. Anti Armor Shotgun, GO! KABLOOIE! But then how does one scale in other circumstances? Is the hull of a Mech of the Line just... permeable? I don't want to render it immune to anything, but there's no step between hand held 1d6+1/2 auto revolver and a Mecha's 6 shot AP sidearm.

 

That's a lot of what I'm griping about.

 

We'll discuss more when you have the book. (Did you order a physical copy of the book or the PDF from Hero?)

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

Oh, one more thing: be aware that when RW was written, there were multiple Hero System games which had slightly differing rules between them, and that two editions and one revision of the core system have come since then.

 

You can also e-mail me if you have any questions; my address is in my signature.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

I ordered the physical book from Noble Knight Games, the same chaps who provided me with a copy of UMA before they found a fresh box and ordered it in. I <3 my copy of UMA, but I'll be happy to donate it to the crew.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

Rock.

 

My wife bought me the PDF for Christmas, but I've still got my original copy from 1986. If my house were burning down, and I could pick exactly one gaming book to save, it would be that one.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

...

 

That's saying something. Note made.

 

THAT ONE, eh? Huh.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

Yep! Everything else is either relatively easily replaceable or relatively expendable.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

Passing on Giant Robot Construction until such time as I have enough material to do it, I'm going to go ahead and post the general concepts I have. Anyone who has an inkling as to what sits where, please let me know, but if I don't write it down I'm going to die of fright and/or boredom, neither of which do my writing any good. I mean, why play G-d as an author if your words never get into anyone's head, right?

 

Good lord, I'm blogging. Back on topic.

 

There are three core elements which comprise the "myth" of this facet of the world in my head. We'll say three conceits. Part of the structure here is that the world is blending that bizarre anime sense of "over the top" and "realistic." In other words, I'm following as many conventions of "dramatic realism" as possible. Explosions are bigger than they may need to be, because they're much cooler that way. People in combat have action lines flowing past them. Martial arts, melee combat, and Gun Katas all have their place.

 

Characters such as Spike from Cowboy Bebop and the crew from Outlaw Star would both fit in this setting, as would the pilots from Macross, and bits & pieces of Ghost in the Shell and Appleseed.

 

Magic/Psionics: I'm still waffling on much of this; there's a large part of me that wants to keep my demonism/hell war theme going, but I don't want it to be too overpowering. Psionics are a large part of the campaign setting, and are the default option for "magic users" - the options available to Psionics are expansive, covering everything from battle augmentation, to gear boosting.

 

My vision for this ties psionic potential to the ability to be a better Gear pilot, including the prior-mentioned Aether Machine concept that I'll be ripping straight from Xenogears. Because I want a strong differentiation among "gear class" weaponry and "human" weaponry, I see the Aether Machine as being capable of channeling human psionic force into a tangible power big enough to... well, to rip an arm off a Gear, if that's what it comes too.

 

Nomenclature: I'm considering calling them:

 

* Gears (Heavy Gear, Xenogears)

* Machina (as in Deus Ex Machina - G-d machines)

* Rigs (simple, direct, rather American)

* Open to suggestions!

 

The world is known to have monstrosities, creatures that have extensive exposure to the psionic crisis zones (PCZs) that comprise vast sections of blasted landscape - they're considered to be uninhabitable. There's a great deal of scientific research that occurs around PCZs; there's also a great deal of death which occurs around them as well. Like Bubblegum Crisis the RIGS primary purpose is to battle either extraplanar threats, or other RIGS.

 

So there you have the three key elements to getting the feel for the setting; Giant Robots, Psionics, and Interplanar Distress in the form of Psionic Crisis Zones. So far, so good.

 

Mechs come in six flavors in the current version in my head. If you've seen the intro movie to any of the Battletech game, you'll have a sense of scale that makes a mech about the size of a building. These are much closer to Mr. Masamune's mecha, in that they average 20' tall, but use advanced technology to tote around 110mm Cannons, auto pistols, etc.

 

The basic styles of RIG are:

 

- Scout: The smallest mech, and the ones most commonly recommissioned for civilian use. Scout RIGS (I'm testing the word "RIG" and it's working, I like it, but have no idea what RIG would stand for - thoughts?) tend to be capable of carrying light weaponry, are lightly armored, but are the most responsive. A well piloted Scout RIG would have a fighting chance against a larger, slower opponent.

 

Scout mechs are well suited to recon duty; their smaller size makes it more economically viable to place expensive radar resistant plating and high-end surveillance equipment on them. Their lighter frames are also capable of supporting more powerful boosters giving them additional mobility. They are cheap and easy to produce - most countries can afford to field a large number of these, either by rebuilding scrapped ones or buying old models.

 

They are remarkably difficult to pilot, because they tend to have much higher response times than the pilot (SPD 4) so it's rare to see one used to its fullest potential.

 

Scouts can learn standard RIG Arts for hand to hand combat, as they often have two fully functional arms and legs. The Scout is short in the STR department, being the weakest of the group, and can't wield more than an autopistol effectively. Generally, the Scout mech has only one additional Hard Point mounted on the shoulder, although on rare occassions it can be stripped down and outfitted with a medium class weapon (an auto shotgun, small cannon, etc.) Scouts do not generally carry additional side arms.

 

- Light: This started as a catch-all term and slowly evolved into a valid classification of RIGs. The Light RIG is built for guerilla combat; it contains a combination of reconnaissance material, standard counter electronics and upgraded combat calculators to assist the pilot. They have excellent response times, and the pilots are often trained in both ranged combat.

 

These improved Scout classes that would come to be known as Light RIGs were the first to carry melee arms expressly for carving up heavy mechs; being more heavily armored than scouts, while sacrificing only a small amount of mobility, they had a better chance of avoiding punishment long enough to close distance with the heavier RIGs and use their melee weapons to wreak havoc.

 

A Light RIG is often equipped with a medium main weapon (an auto rifle, small auto cannon, etc.) an edged weapon sidearm or bayonet/gunblade variant that combines the best elements of both weapons, although it sacrifices range. Light RIGs are also most likely to be given Sniper duty. They have one Hard Point on their left shoulder and an optional Right Hardpoint, or they can use both to equip a heavier shoulder weapon (a beam rifle, SRM, LRM, Mortar Launcher, etc.)

 

- Hunter: The Hunter class retains its designation despite, like the Scout, often being outdone by the modern Shock class. These RIGs still see service with many smaller countries and some military outfits who've been able to modify them so heavily they no longer resemble the base model. They contain advanced targeting computers, limited AI, fully cooperative on-board navigation systems, etc. They're built for long-term, stand alone survival as well as team management. The Hunter RIG was the first attempt to create a machine dedicated to Spec OPS, and sought to create as many of the traits of that group as possible.

 

Carrying variable ordinance, from demolitions, to pistols, rifles, mortars, anti-RIG weaponry and the like, the Hunter class is a well balanced unit. It's mobile, well armored, occassionally equipped with Jump Jets and is the largest frame that a Flight Booster can support. Like the Scout, the Hunter was built with the fluid combat ability of a soldier in mind; the design focuses on fully developed hands for issuing signals and wielding weapons, a modular design that isn't locked to a particular weapon, and enough armor to engage in a prolonged fire fight.

 

Its downsides are that its notoriously underpowered, often being loaded with ordinance beyond its listed carrying capacity. This is an unfair criticism, which any pilot can tell you. As a Special Forces design, its most effective in a set prepared role, with the option of changing directives on the fly. Best loaded with multi-purpose ordinance, rather than trying to load it down with everything including the kitchen sink.

 

Because of its SpecOps construction, the Hunter class is also highly manueverable and wholly capable of engaging in hand to hand combat with another RIG, bringing its considerable strength to bear directly on the target.

 

- Shock: The Shock RIG was built to support/replace the Hunter classification; it's precisely what it sounds like. The front line combat unit. Well armored from the front with minimal armor in the back and sides, it generally carries one full Heavy grade weapon, a side arm (such as an auto pistol) and a melee weapon (an M-Blade or the like).

 

Shock RIGs have the advantage of being able to close distance remarkably quickly, using their boosters to that express purpose. Often deployed in squads, their combined force is enough to level a small city block with ease. They're usually equipped with a variety of ordinance, including multi-missile racks, beam weaponry, and the like.

 

- Heavy: See above, big, tough, capable of taking a hit. Generally equipped with one heavy grade weapon and two additional hard points.

 

- Assault: Take a heavy, add more armor than you know what to do with, a pair of heavy weapons, three full hardpoints and almost no mobility whatsoever and you have an Assault RIG.

 

- MotL: See above. Effectively a "RIG Carrier" built using RIG technology. A Mech of the Line is capable of supporting up to 10 RIGs of varying sizes at once, has heavy grade weaponry, multiple hard points, cannons, energy weapons and is nigh invulnerable to RIG weapon fire. They're also insanely slow, require a massive crew to maintain, and impossibly expensive. While assaulting one is foolish, they are more often used to stage battles from, rather than as direct combatants themselves.

 

MotL RIGs can be equipped with long-range ballistic weaponry, giving their squadrons a significant advantage.

 

Some thoughts. Weapon thoughts coming, and a possible history (although that'll take a lot of time).

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

Here are a couple of Robot Warriors mecha I posted here about a year and a half ago. To my knowledge, they're the only RW writeups that currently exist on the Internet.

 

Edit: Ah ha! Happily that turns out not to be the case. Here is the Fantasy Hero/Robot Warriors hybrid game I was looking for, with writeups for four others.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

Nice, thanks Chris. I'm torn - I want something that goes between the "mech for anything" concept of Battletech (where you can have 209 different variations on "55 ton mech") and direct anime, where there are generally a select group of mecha in types, and then main characters tend to personalize them. Tough choice.

 

More thinking and posts will ensue. Giant Robot RPG will live.

 

YES.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

Oh heck, you can go from "Everyone build your mecha using the design system" which is as option-rich as the full Hero System character design system, to "Pick a type, pick your customizations, and go."

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC)

 

I now have a copy of Robot Warriors. As I was running my Ravenloft game last night I have yet to read through anything other than the opening, where I promptly discovered that the combat system originally shipped is whack, yo. I can see in this case where having a single combat system is more fluid and far more reasonable.

 

Have a question though. On another thread, someone put up that a Gauss Rifle under SER would be a 6d6 Weapon dealing 15 / 45 (IIRC). Sidestepping the sticky wicket of RIG class weapons vs. normals, what Giant Robot isn't going to have the DEF to shrug this off? Am I missing something? Is this covered better in Robot Warriors?