Help in evaluating a character

[pointyman2000]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

CSLs in an EC? I'd kick that out ASAP.

His "Vengeful Wind" doesn't state what the Trigger is...?

 

The STR Min on the Staff doesn't seem very limiting considering he exceeds it by 7 points. And is more for Heroic Games, not sure what genre this is for though.

 

He's got no EGO or PRE over the base... First mentalist or Fear Monger to come along and he's puppy chow.

 

The Vengeful Wind thing is triggered by an attack against him (most likely one in HTH) Dunno how he'll phrase it though, but I'm going to write it down as stated once he does

 

I'd hate to go all D&D "Wish" spell on his definition but I need to look out for myself.

 

To be perfectly honest, this is the first HERO campaign I've ever run, so I'm pretty sure that a lot of the stuff I'm seeing here is the lack of solid guidelines I've set.

 

From what I've seen from you guys, there should be limits on SPD, PD/ED, OCV/DCV and Active Points in Powers, unfortunately, the only thing I specified was the Active Points.

 

Ah well... I guess I know what to do now the next time I run HERO

[Trebuchet]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

Balance is the most important thing; so if you need to chage the parameters a bit don't hesitate. It's make the game run more smoothly in the end.

[Vanguard]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

It is not legal within the Hero system for the same Power to have both OIHID and Focus. One or the other, but not both.

 

Really? I could've sworn that it was like the restrictions on EC slots. Some of them are frowned on and probably not a good idea to allow but it's not neccessarily "illegal".

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

Oh let him play' date=' then hit him with a 4d6 entangle and all his powers (including all the extra strength he needs to escape the entangle) go away as do all those lovely defences, leaving him helpless and KO'd first time someone punches him through the entangle. That will be far more effective than just re-writing the character for him - limitations LIMIT:)[/quote']Why 4d6? a 1d6 area effect entangle would take this guy out indefinitely and couldn't miss. A few points of darkness to sound targeted on him would have the same effect, I believe.

 

Additionally, with everything hinging on a OAF, take the Damn thing - it's OBVIOUS, for Pete's sake, and accessable to boot. All it takes is a grab. 30 points of telekineses would render him utterly mortal and really sad about it. My mistake - it's an OIF. So entangle him first, and then take his toy away.

[Tasha]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

Well, for the morbidly curious, here's a martial artist character build he gave at around the same time. Take note that I haven't replied about his build yet when he sent me this so some glaring mistakes are still on this one

 

As with last time, the everyman skills have the base roll without paying points and he has a strange fetish for gestures and restrainable in the same power (which as was stated by the fine folks here, is illegal).

 

Looking at his Wind Dragon Stance powers, I'm guessing it's gestures with two hands only to activate (-1/4 plus an additional -1/4 for two hands). Same limitation though, I'm guessing if his character spends his first phase 12 to try and activate the Wind Dragon Stance, people could smack him first and interrupt his activation, wasting his phase 12 and his action.

 

Actually the Martial Artist build is slightly more reasonable. This one would be much easier to work into a viable character. BTW I can't find in 5ER where it says that you can't have Gestures and Restrainable on the same power. There is a restriction on Restrainable with Accessable Foci. Though I would require that the player have extra time for those powers with Gestures. What it really means is that he gestures to cast the enhancement spells and that if he is ever restrained that he will lose those powers. At least till he can recast the spells.

 

My biggest problem with both characters is how many dice they can pump out. I would actually allow the MA with some minor adjustments and then make sure that his limitations were enforced. I think that the second time that he was hit with a Net gun and had all of his powers turn off he would want to redesign it even further. I would try to warn him how combat would play out.

 

People who take limitations have to know that they will be enforced at times and the larger the limitation the more often that they will come up.

 

Honestly I usually run at 12-14DC (up to 75pts), Def 20-30, Dex 21-28, Speed 4-7. with 350pts and a request to have 40-50 pts in Non-combat skills. The averages being DC12, Dex 23, Def 23, Speed 5. With Bricks trading Dex and Speed for DC and MA's the opposite. I am lucky enough to play with a mature group that has had it's fill of powergaming and make reasonable characters.

 

Tasha

[pointyman2000]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

Guess what? He's back...

 

He's submitted his final build for a character in my Teen Hero game. This one is Alice, a cross between American McGee's Alice and Professor X's psionic abilities. He tears the background wholesale, of her seeing her parents die in a fire in their house, but she was rescued, albeit insane after the incident. While in the Psychiatric ward, she kills some people who try to take her last remaining possession, a teddy bear named Marco. They determine that it's her dark half that's acting, and they toss her to the school to try and live a normal life.

 

Yeah...

 

Anyway, here's the build. I'm trying to figure out what tricks he's slipped into this one. From what he's telling me, he figures he can see through someone's mind and then use his psionic abilities by proxy through that other person's vision/perception. Alice then spends her time at the base, happily using psionic attacks without the need to be put in danger.

 

10 STR
20 DEX
15 CON
10 BODY
15 INT
20 EGO
10 PRE
20 COM

2  PD
2  ED
3  SPD
5  REC
30 END
23 STUN

Skills:
2  PS: Student

Powers:
22 Concussion - 3d6 Ego Attack, 0 End(+.5); Cannot be Pushed(-.25); Cannot be Used in Multipower Attacks(-.25); Restrainable(-.5)

20 Dominate Mind - 10d6 Mind Control, Cannot be Pushed(-.25); Cannot be Used in Multipower Attacks(-.25); Restrainable(-.5); Stops Working if Mentalist is Stunned(-.5) END Cost 5

20 Phantasm - 10d6 Mental Illusions, Cannot be Pushed(-.25); Cannot be Used in Multipower Attacks(-.25); Restrainable(-.5); Stops Working if Mentalist is Stunned(-.5) END Cost 5

20 Mental Intrusion - 10d6 Mental Telepathy, Cannot be Pushed(-.25); Cannot be Used in Multipower Attacks(-.25); Restrainable(-.5); Stops Working if Mentalist is Stunned(-.5) END Cost  5

10 Ride the Mind - Mind Link with any 2 Minds, No Range(-.5); Incantations(-.25); Gestures(-.25)

10 Intellect Fortress - 10 points of Mental Defense

 

So far I'm curious as to how he plans to work this. Anyway, his build continues to get stranger... I'm assuming that "Marco" either the Teddy Bear or a Dark Half of the girl that reveals itself when she berzerks or something...

 

18 Marco - 45 Point Multipower, All Slots Cannot be Pushed(-.25); Cannot be Used in Multipower Attacks(-.25); OAF(-1)

1u Concussion+ - +3d6 EGO Attack; 0 END (+.5)

1u Dominate Mind+ - +6d6 Mind Control; 0 END (+.5)

1u Phantasm+ - +6d6 Mental Illusions; 0 END (+.5)

1u Mental Intrusion+ - +6d6 Telepathy;  0 END (+.5)

1u Mind Hunter - 6d6 Mind Scan; Uncontrolled (+.5) END Cost 4

 

Oookay, he's trying to breach the 50 AP limit by splitting it up into two powers, I'm guessing. But Marco apparently gives here even more...

 

11 Marco - 25 Point Elemental Control, OAF (-1); Incantations (-.25)

10 Ego boost - +25 EGO; Costs END to Activate (-.25)

7  Speed of Thought - +5 SPD; Costs END to Activate (-.25); Only for actions BOECV (-1)

7  Silent Reassurance - 2d6 AID to END, Triggered: One Condition, Free Action, Auto-Reset(+1); 0 END(+.5); No Concious Control(-1)

6  Remote Viewing - Clairsentience with Sight and Hearing [MPP, 2 x Perception Points]; Only Costs END to Activate(+.25); Linked to Mind Link(-.5); Usable Only Through Mind Link(-1)
Gestures(-.25)

9  Barrier 20 PD & ED Resistant Force Field, Only Costs END to Activate(+.25); Gestures(-.5)

---

1 Mind Crush - Specific Naked Power Advantage for Concussion: AoE One Hex - Non-Selective

1 Mind Crush+ - Specific Naked Power Advantage for Concussion+: AoE One Hex - Non-Selective

 

Whew...

 

Looking over his new character, I'm already seeing things that he will have to explain or fix.

 

1) "Silent Reassurance" He hasn't defined the trigger for it, and I'm not sure of his rationale as to how it auto-triggers. Does the fact that it's got No Conscious Control mean that I choose what trigger it has? I'll have him rebuild this power.

 

2) The Multipower is trying to sidestep around my Active Point Limits. I'll trash his additional dice to his existing mental attacks. This is pretty blatant that I caught it this time around after his first 2 attempts and your help

 

3) I need help on trying to figure out how the Cannot be Used in a Multiple Power Attack limitation hinders him. If it doesn't, then it's not allowed.

 

4) Does having No Range on the Mind Link mean that he has to be in constant contact with the being he's linked to? From what he was telling me, we was planning to link to an ally and use that ally's perception (via Mind Link / Clairvoyance) to Fire her psi attacks. Is this a legal construct for this?

 

I'm not likely to allow this one into the game due to the fact that it flies in the face of the campaign concept, but I'd like to be prepared in case someone tries something like this to me again.

 

Heck, I have to hand it to the guy, ever since I gmed and he's been trying to push these past me, I've learned more about the HERO system than I have from playing it for a year.

 

Do you guys see anything else that is blatantly messing with the rules in this build?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

Actually the Martial Artist build is slightly more reasonable. This one would be much easier to work into a viable character. BTW I can't find in 5ER where it says that you can't have Gestures and Restrainable on the same power. There is a restriction on Restrainable with Accessable Foci. Though I would require that the player have extra time for those powers with Gestures. What it really means is that he gestures to cast the enhancement spells and that if he is ever restrained that he will lose those powers. At least till he can recast the spells.

From 5ER p 296:

 

Limitations: Gestures (Paragraph 1) "He must be able to move freely - if he's encumbered or in a confined space, the power should function poorly, if at all. If he's restrained or Grabbed, he cannot activate and/or use the power."

 

A fundamental rule of Hero (5ER p 280) states A Limitation that doesn't limit the character isn't worth any bonus! By definition Gestures is restrainable, and so buying Restrainable on the same Power(s) as Gestures would be prohibited. (Buying it as -0 might plausibly be legal, but would be rather pointless.)

[Trebuchet]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

Heck, I have to hand it to the guy, ever since I gmed and he's been trying to push these past me, I've learned more about the HERO system than I have from playing it for a year.

 

Do you guys see anything else that is blatantly messing with the rules in this build?

How does this clown justify putting Restrainable on mental powers?

 

His mental Multipower has an OAF?

 

Do you allow or use Multi-Power attacks in your campaign? If not, then that's not really a valid Limitation. (We've never used one in our campaign; not even for a villain.)

[pointyman2000]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

How does this clown justify putting Restrainable on mental powers?

 

His mental Multipower has an OAF?

 

Do you allow or use Multi-Power attacks in your campaign? If not, then that's not really a valid Limitation. (We've never used one in our campaign; not even for a villain.)

 

Nope, never used multi-power attacks in my campaign, and I'm thinking of telling him to take it out since it's not a limitation.

 

I think the OAF is the teddy bear... If Alice stays at the base all the time and uses her Mind Link with an ally + Psi Attack combo via ally's perception combo, should I tell her to get rid of the limitation that it's accessible?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

Nope, never used multi-power attacks in my campaign, and I'm thinking of telling him to take it out since it's not a limitation.

 

I think the OAF is the teddy bear... If Alice stays at the base all the time and uses her Mind Link with an ally + Psi Attack combo via ally's perception combo, should I tell her to get rid of the limitation that it's accessible?

If I'm understanding you correctly, the character is essentially planning to physically stay back at HQ and mentally "piggyback" along with one of the other characters minds? Then an OAF really isn't appropriate unless it's being worn by the character he's piggybacking on. Otherwise how is it accessible to opponents? And is there another PC actually willing to do this, since taking that character out essentially eliminates two heroes from the battle? (Of course, if a player were actually dense enough to try that in my campaign I'd have bad guys attacking headquarters every other week. )

 

I have to admire this player's fanatic devotion to munchkinism.

[pointyman2000]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

If I'm understanding you correctly' date=' the character is essentially planning to physically stay back at HQ and mentally "piggyback" along with one of the other characters minds? Then an OAF really isn't appropriate unless it's being worn by the character he's piggybacking on. Otherwise how is it accessible to opponents? And is there another PC actually willing to do this, since taking that character out essentially eliminates two heroes from the battle? (Of course, if a player were actually dense enough to try that in my campaign I'd have bad guys attacking headquarters every other week. )[/quote']

 

Yes... supposedly it's going to be that way without the other character necessarily carrying around the bear.

 

Since the combo is split between 2 powers it's looking like

 

- Alice touches ally, establishes Mind Link

- Ally goes off to fight while Alice stays at home

- Alice uses Teddy Bear to activate Clairvoyance / Mind attack from the field of vision of the Mind Linked ally.

 

My head is hurting from how this build is going to achieve that.

 

I have to admire this player's fanatic devotion to munchkinism.

 

I know. He's like the Ghandi of Munchkins.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

Yes... supposedly it's going to be that way without the other character necessarily carrying around the bear.

 

Since the combo is split between 2 powers it's looking like

 

- Alice touches ally, establishes Mind Link

- Ally goes off to fight while Alice stays at home

- Alice uses Teddy Bear to activate Clairvoyance / Mind attack from the field of vision of the Mind Linked ally.

 

My head is hurting from how this build is going to achieve that.

So let me see if I've got this straight: This "heroine" is going to sit safely back at HQ while her teammates risk their lives in battle; and to add further insult one of them is supposed to carry a teddy bear into combat as a focus for her powers? He actually thinks the other players will go along with this?

 

I know. He's like the Gandhi of Munchkins.

 

Repped!

[stan da ork]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

Well, before I go off on the particular problems with his build, here's something very important to consider: neither Mind Link or Clairsentience can be used to piggyback on someone and use mental powers on things that person can perceive. Mind Link only allows you to use mental powers on the person you are linked with, and Clairsentience specifically cannot be used to establish LOS (p. 141, 5ER). So his proposed tactics don't work. At all. He will have to march his frail little self around with the group and put himself in danger, or he will have to sit at home and watch everyone else have fun.

 

Now, I'll try to poke some more holes in the specifics of the build...

 

1.) Unless Pushing is really common in your campaign, or you allow people to push stuff by a huge amount of points, I wouldn't give him -1/4 for "Cannot be Pushed." Seems like this should be a -0, except in something like a Golden Age supers game, where Pushing is an everyday occurrence.

 

2.) As already stated, unless Multiple Power Attacks are really common, the Limitation should be -0.

 

3.) Either make him give you a really good justification for how his mental powers are Restrainable (over and above his "Stops Working if Mentalist is Stunned" Limitation), or make him get rid of it.

 

4.) If the character is going to stay home and use Mind Link and Clairvoyance , then OAF is not appropriate for the Multipower.

 

5.) If the Multipower violates campaign active point limits, you should axe the whole Multipower anyway.

 

6.) You normally can't put Characteristics in Elemental Controls, except with special GM permission. Thus the EGO slot in his EC should be axed. The same thing applies to the SPD slot as well.

 

7.) I believe the Aid Power is something like this - there is a Trigger condition as to when it goes off. He can't use the Power otherwise - only when the Trigger goes off. This is why he took NCC on it. This is totally bogus; you don't get to take NCC on a Triggered Power that can only be used through the Trigger condition. Also, Aid is inherently 0 END; he doesn't need the Reduced Endurance Advantage.

 

8.) Clairsentience has standard range (AP x 5"). If the person he is Mind Linked with goes out of this range, the Clairsentience stops functioning. Also, Costs END Only to Activate is highly dubious except on body-affecting Powers.

 

9.) His FF requires Gestures throughout, which means if he is affected by any Power, it immediately drops. Also see CEOTA comment above.

 

10.) The naked advantages are worthless. AoE Nonselective means you have to make an attack roll against DCV 3 (or DECV 3) to target the area, then you have to make another attack roll against each target within the area against their normal DCV (or DECV). Since he only bought one hex, all he has done is create a situation where he has to make two attack rolls to affect someone, instead of just one.

 

Just a final word on this (although it may not be my place), but this guy has submitted at least three characters that were nothing but blatant attempts to subvert the campaign guidelines and break the RAW. Why are you even letting this guy play? Kick him out. He is more interested in creating a broken character than having fun with the group, and he should be removed before he drives any of the good players off. Just my opinion, of course.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

Why 4d6? a 1d6 area effect entangle would take this guy out indefinitely and couldn't miss. A few points of darkness to sound targeted on him would have the same effect, I believe.

 

Additionally, with everything hinging on a OAF, take the Damn thing - it's OBVIOUS, for Pete's sake, and accessable to boot. All it takes is a grab. 30 points of telekineses would render him utterly mortal and really sad about it. My mistake - it's an OIF. So entangle him first, and then take his toy away.

 

Even without his powers he has 25 STR so a 1d6 entangle wouldn't slow him. I figured 4d6 as it is enough to guarantee, even on a good roll, that he is there for more than one phase.

 

Mind you the whole point is that he has to see that this kind of build is powerful in only a very specialised way: it can fall to so many different types of attack. He must spend hours trying to find new ways to ebnd it out of shape. Whatever makes him happy, I suppose.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

Look up Line Of Sight rules and Clairsentience Rules.

 

Mind Link cannot establish Line Of Sight. Clairsentience cannot establish Line Of Sight without GM Permission - just deny Permission. done. Now Alice has to leave Wonderland.

 

Restrainable on Mental Powers. Either have him remove it or... establish Mental Wards within the campaign. The proper Mental Wards may Restrain Mental Powers. Place the wards all around the Base. Poof Alice is now Restained.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

Am I alone in thinking that it was a black day when 'Costs END only to activate' was made a general advantage and not just an advantage for certain specific body powers?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

Am I alone in thinking that it was a black day when 'Costs END only to activate' was made a general advantage and not just an advantage for certain specific body powers?

I don't think that way.. I can find plenty of good (non-munchkiny) general use Powers that benefit (and thus the characters and players benefit) from that Advantage made open.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

Am I alone in thinking that it was a black day when 'Costs END only to activate' was made a general advantage and not just an advantage for certain specific body powers?

Well, I'll admit I've had my qualms about it from time to time. But it's not the end of the world; and I wouldn't allow it for most attacks.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

..................

Do you guys see anything else that is blatantly messing with the rules in this build?

 

No more than this is:

 

Human maximum characteristics: 162 points

 

Invisibility: Sight, hearing, mental 0 END, always on only v people with mental powers (-1) 18 points

 

Teleportation: Anywhere on Earth (1", megascale, reduceable +1.75) 5 points

 

36 Attack multipower (pyrokinesis - only v people with mental powers BRAIN BURN -1):

6d6 NND

4d6 RKA

 

130 Enhanced sense: Psionic spotting

Detect people with mental powers, targetting sense 360 degrees discriminatory and analyse range telescopic (+44 - anywhere on planet or in near space)

 

Comes to 333 points so plenty left for character development, eh?

 

Goodnight Alice.

[pointyman2000]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

No more than this is:

 

Human maximum characteristics: 162 points

 

Invisibility: Sight, hearing, mental 0 END, always on only v people with mental powers (-1) 18 points

 

Teleportation: Anywhere on Earth (1", megascale, reduceable +1.75) 5 points

 

36 Attack multipower (pyrokinesis - only v people with mental powers BRAIN BURN -1):

6d6 NND

4d6 RKA

 

130 Enhanced sense: Psionic spotting

Detect people with mental powers, targetting sense 360 degrees discriminatory and analyse range telescopic (+44 - anywhere on planet or in near space)

 

Comes to 333 points so plenty left for character development, eh?

 

Goodnight Alice.

 

Oooh... nasty.

 

The reason I keep this guy around is that he's actually prett decent when he's not playing. I'm trying to fence him in to some semblance of decency, though I'm prett sure that I'm not making much progress.

 

I've also informed him that as long as he hasn't given an acceptable build, he won't be able to play. The longer he takes, the more experience he's missing out on.

 

I know it's a little mean to leave him knocking on the campaign door making characters over and over, but he has to learn that my HERO campaign isn't his old DnD game where the GM actively taught them to "optimize" their builds.

 

I'm seeing if I can yet reform The Ghandi of Munchkins.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

I don't think that way.. I can find plenty of good (non-munchkiny) general use Powers that benefit (and thus the characters and players benefit) from that Advantage made open.

 

I reckon it is munchkinny for even the limited uses it was first put to*: face it for anything you are going to keep on for more than 2 phases (i.e. most things, in an ideal world) it beats '1/2 END' hands down.

 

END is a major limiter in Hero, and this is a cheap way to make the problem go away.

 

 

 

 

 

*but don't let this stand on the high ground fool you into believing it isn't one of the most popular avantages in characters I build - that's what first made me suspicious....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

Oooh... nasty.

 

The reason I keep this guy around is that he's actually prett decent when he's not playing. I'm trying to fence him in to some semblance of decency, though I'm prett sure that I'm not making much progress.

 

I've also informed him that as long as he hasn't given an acceptable build, he won't be able to play. The longer he takes, the more experience he's missing out on.

 

I know it's a little mean to leave him knocking on the campaign door making characters over and over, but he has to learn that my HERO campaign isn't his old DnD game where the GM actively taught them to "optimize" their builds.

 

I'm seeing if I can yet reform The Ghandi of Munchkins.

 

Why not just hand him a character and let him play that, or even let him play one of is monsters and really lean on the limitations: it is a learning curve: you can't minmax in Hero like you can in dnd - it is far more about balance.

[pointyman2000]

Re: Help in evaluating a character

 

Why not just hand him a character and let him play that' date=' or even let him play one of is monsters and really lean on the limitations: it is a learning curve: you can't minmax in Hero like you can in dnd - it is far more about balance.[/quote']

 

Agreed. I'm actually tempted to just go with your recommended course of action. I've sent back a few comments on his build with requests to correct the more blatant stuff he did. I'll put him in the game and see what happens once we start playing around with his limitations.

 

I remember rebuilding a previous character concept of his to fit my campaign guidelines and he scrapped it, saying that he didn't want to play it anymore (after looking my build of course, maybe it wasn't munchkinny enough. )