Heroic level characteristics ramble

[Just Joe]

Re: Heroic level characteristics ramble

 

I'd allow 3 point Skill Levels to cover "All Detective Skills" in the same way that 3 point Combat Skill Levels already cover all martial maneuvers in a given martial art. It may be stretching things a bit' date=' but in a campaign with no NCM, 5 point skill levels are often a bit overpriced compared to the benefits of just buying raw stats.[/quote']Maybe. It depends on how wide of a range of skills the levels cover. NSG's list of detective skills covered a wide range of skills with rolls based on different characteristics. A 13 INT & 13 PRE costs only 6 and gets you +1 with most or all of those skills as well as providing other benefits. But if you already have a 13 INT & 13 PRE and want an additional +1, it costs you 10 points to do it via characteristics. And if the skill level covers skills based on three different characteristics (e.g., NSG's Thief skills), then 5 points per skill level looks like a bargain.

[Just Joe]

Re: Heroic level characteristics ramble

 

Radix' point made me think about why I started this thread: right' date=' low STR is often associated with low general fitness...but not necessarily: I mean if you take a 14 year old female olympic gymnast: good strength to weight ratio, no reason to have a low CON but on the Hero absolute scale absolutely rubbish at arm wrestling. How is this relevant? well it comes back to building what you WANT in a character as opposed to building what the system 'suggests' you build.[/quote']This gymnast is, of course, an example of a character who has some traits of a relatively high characteristic and other traits of a relatively low level of the same characteristic. (This might be true of multiple characteristics, but I have in mind CON). Buying a limited CHAR strikes me as one legitimate approach, but I'm with NSG in preferring to go another route if possible. Since she's probably relatively easy to stun or KO, I would give her no higher than an 8 CON and say that in her case, the sub-par value relects her lack of toughness, not lack of fitness. You could even buy it lower and buy her levels with CON roles. Her END could potentially be bought up OR down, depending on what her CON is and depending on how much END her gymnastics manuevers cost. If these are inherently low-cost or she buys reduced END on her running, for example, she could have low CON and low END and still be quite fit.

 

I do appreciate that I am looking here at very minor points, but at heroic level, there is limited scope for real variation between characters.

 

. . .

 

The suggestion therefore is that whilst, for the sake of everyone's sanity, Hero groups similar abilities under a general characteristic heading, that one one to more accurately suggest a particular character, in keeping with heroic fiction, and as a way around the NCM, without things getting too out of hand, would be to use limited characteristics.

I am persuaded. But since it will often be a pain-in-the-butt way, I am also persuaded by NSG to avoid it where possible.

 

 

One final example; javelin throwers. THEORETICALLY (in the Hero world) the only way to lob a javelin a really long way is to have high strength: skill determines if you hit' date=' but strength determines range. Looking at real world champions, they go for a balance of strength speed and technique. They don't go for massive strength - even the best are athletically, rather than 'powerfully' built. To me that is a character who has bought extra strength for throwing, and could apply that both to range and damage for a thrown javelin, without necessarily being able to use that strength for any other purpose. OK you could do the extra damage with skill levels but you can't do the extra range any other way.[/quote']Good example, though if the GM could be persuaded to let two skill levels (probably only fairly specific 3-point levels if I am the GM) be used to add 5 to STR for throwing purposes, then the levels approach can be made to work.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Heroic level characteristics ramble

 

The other problem I have is that one charcteristic can do a lot: Dust raven mentions a martial artist being less likely to trip over a kerb, and I agree: a martial artist probably (in addiiton to martial arts skill) has above average STR, CON and DEX, and maybe PRE too, but do they really have the sort of levels that we so often see in characters? I think not.

 

Just to clarify my stance on this, though it may be moot, I don't believe that every martial artist should have a 20 STR and a 20+ DEX and so on. Higher than average definately, but not close to or surpasing human maximum. Of course, I'm talking realistic martial artists and action heroes that practice martial artists. Honk Kong martial arts films might be different though, as many main characters in such films do seem to have near maximum in human characteristics, if not more. And superhero martial arts shouldn't even be considered... they are by definition superhuman, even if they don't have "real" superpowers.

 

I do think the average Hero gamer, in any genre or setting, tends to over do their characteristics. I havn't played a lot of Fantasy Hero, but what I did play I saw a lot of high stats. Only the Wizard had a STR less than 15 and no one had a CON less than 15. Each character was vastly different though, so I'm not sure if this is a bad thing overall, but it might be a better thing if players felt comfortable having more vaired stats.

[OddHat]

Re: Heroic level characteristics ramble

 

I do think the average Hero gamer, in any genre or setting, tends to over do their characteristics. I havn't played a lot of Fantasy Hero, but what I did play I saw a lot of high stats. Only the Wizard had a STR less than 15 and no one had a CON less than 15. Each character was vastly different though, so I'm not sure if this is a bad thing overall, but it might be a better thing if players felt comfortable having more vaired stats.

 

Fair enough, but I'd add a cautionary note here. HERO is a point based game. Every experienced player knows the break points, and most of us go through the min-maxing and power gaming stages (and some stay there, and I don't say that's a bad thing for all groups). If we as GMs force our players to ignore those break points, we have an obligation to make sure that there's some effect on game play. Otherwise, what's the point?

 

Really, I just don't see characters using break points as a problem. I also have no problem with players who want their Heroes to have Heroic stats. It's the way the game works.

[Vorsch]

Re: Heroic level characteristics ramble

 

What about swimming, its quantifiable like str but has the advantage of being open to only one interpretation of what "it means".

 

Human max 5" at spd 4, 10m x2/3=6.6mps or 15mph

 

Thats three times the world record speed for a 100m freestyle, with the added bonus that it costs practically no end.

[OddHat]

Re: Heroic level characteristics ramble

 

What about swimming, its quantifiable like str but has the advantage of being open to only one interpretation of what "it means".

 

Human max 5" at spd 4, 10m x2/3=6.6mps or 15mph

 

Thats three times the world record speed for a 100m freestyle, with the added bonus that it costs practically no end.

 

The "Average" person can leap one hex straight up. Can you make a two meter leap straight into the air? I can't.

[Vorsch]

Re: Heroic level characteristics ramble

 

I could also be a million times stronger and be able to throw something a extra 40m....awesome.

 

Sorry some of the rules have never been updated and i find it fustrating that after 20 years the book still has all these glaring stupidities while the designer mucks around with regen and instant change.

 

sorry i should probabily go and lie down.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Heroic level characteristics ramble

 

Radix' point made me think about why I started this thread: right' date=' low STR is often associated with low general fitness...but not necessarily: I mean if you take a 14 year old female olympic gymnast: good strength to weight ratio, no reason to have a low CON but on the Hero absolute scale absolutely rubbish at arm wrestling. How is this relevant? [/quote']Actually, I would easily give a 14-15 year old female olympic gymnast better than even odds in an arm wrestling match verse a fully grown average male.

 

TB

[OddHat]

Re: Heroic level characteristics ramble

 

Actually, I would easily give a 14-15 year old female olympic gymnast better than even odds in an arm wrestling match verse a fully grown average male.

 

TB

 

A sedentary desk job worker vs an Olympic athlete? Definitely. OTOH, a manual laborer or weekend athlete might have a shot if he had enough of a weight advantage.

[Gary]

Re: Heroic level characteristics ramble

 

A suggestion I had previously made for those who have problems with 'breakpoints' in Hero. Give graduated bonuses for each stat rather than all the bonuses at the key breakpoints.

 

For Str:

 

1 +1 stun +1 damage

2 +1 PD +1d2 damage

3 +1 stun +1/2d6 damage

4 +1 Rec +1d6-1 damage

5 +1 stun +1d6 damage

6 +1 PD +1 damage

7 +1 stun +1d2 damage

8 +1 Rec +1/2d6 damage

9 +1 stun +1d6-1 damage

10 +1d6 damage

 

For Con:

 

1 +1 stun +2 end

2 +1 ED +2 end

3 +1 stun +2 end

4 +1 Rec +2 end

5 +1 stun +2 end

6 +1 ED +2 end

7 +1 stun +2 end

8 +1 Rec +2 end

9 +1 stun +2 end

10 +2 end

 

For Dex:

 

1 +1 general Dex rolls

2 +1 OCV or DCV

3 +1 OCV or DCV (must be the opposite of 2)

4 +1 Agility skill rolls

5 +1 OCV or DCV

6 +1 OCV or DCV (must be the opposite of 5)

7 +1 general Dex rolls

8 +1 OCV or DCV

9 +1 OCV or DCV (must be the opposite of 8)

10 +1 Agility skill rolls

 

For Int:

 

1 +1 Perception with 1 sense

2 +1 Int skill rolls with up to 3 skills

3 +1 Int rolls (non skills or perception)

4 +1 Perception with all senses (not cumulative with 1)

5 +1 Int skill rolls with all int skills (not cumulative with 2)

 

The advantage of this system is that it allows for efficient characters with 21 con or 17 int or 22 dex instead of most characters having 23 con, 18 int, and 23 dex. You won't have the problem of every character clustering around the key breakpoints. The disadvantage is slightly greater complexity.

[Gary]

Re: Heroic level characteristics ramble

 

The "Average" person can leap one hex straight up. Can you make a two meter leap straight into the air? I can't.

 

 

2 hexes noncombat, or 4 meters straight up.

[OddHat]

Re: Heroic level characteristics ramble

 

2 hexes noncombat' date=' or 4 meters straight up. [/quote']

 

Yes. No wonder flight is so cheap in HERO.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Heroic level characteristics ramble

 

Actually, I would easily give a 14-15 year old female olympic gymnast better than even odds in an arm wrestling match verse a fully grown average male.

 

TB

 

 

I'll go and check and get back to you....

 

Mind you I doubt it, still. Female strength works differently to male strength. Less arm development, less muscle development at the same or similar weight, and generally lower weight anyway, so less musclemass to start with. I very much doubt that the olympic gymnast would win that one.

 

Nadia Comaneci weighed 86 pounds when she competed in the 1976 Olympics and did oh so well. A bit over 6 stone. I'm sorry, but she just is not going to win an arm wrestle.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Heroic level characteristics ramble

 

I could also be a million times stronger and be able to throw something a extra 40m....awesome.

 

Sorry some of the rules have never been updated and i find it fustrating that after 20 years the book still has all these glaring stupidities while the designer mucks around with regen and instant change.

 

sorry i should probabily go and lie down.

I wouldn't call them "stupidities" anymore than I could call the conventions of the action or superhero genre stupidities. Hero is a game that is not intended to mimic reality any more than the fictional stories we try to replicate do.

 

Of course, it's not the difficult to modify the system to more accurately mimic reality, but it runs the risk of unbalancing the final result.