The Power of Presence

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

Agreed

 

Mind you if you think of it from a team perspective rather than an individual one, it is far better that the person Dr D targets has some chance of surviving the hit.

 

I think team synergy is something we do not think enough about in Hero: it can make a vast difference to how quickly (or whether) the other side get taken out.

 

I said Dr. D, not Firewing. If any character in the group has "a chance of surviving" (which I read as having more than negative 10 STUN) an attack from Destroyer the character should be required to buy the ability as Mind Control, as no one other than Destroyer, or the gods, would stand a chance against him.

 

Synergy is important though. Few groups are willing to sacrifice a biship to take the queen. And it's not just that. There is a disproportionate amount of characters who grab a bad guy so a buddy can punch them in a game than there are in the source material.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

Again - Why?

 

In one turn - 12 segments - you don't get a breakout roll to escape a PREsence attack. You're just out of it automatically. Unless there's something in ReFred I don't know about, the longest the rules describe anyone being influenced by a PRE attack is one turn.

 

If you're adding house rules to "rein in" PREsence attacks, it's because you're already making them much more powerful than the rules say they are.

 

The guy hit by a PRE attack doesn't need any help getting out from under it. It's the guy who LAUNCHED the PRE attack who needs to justify having it continue to effect the victim past, say, segment 12 of the same Turn, maybe segment 12 of the next if the Game Operations Director is being generous. Ordinarily, you have to keep making PRE attacks for a long term effect, and the rules specify that each time, your attack is less effective. Why do you think that specific rule is even there? If one PREsence attack was good for all day long, why do you think they'd have a rule covering repeated attacks on the same target?

 

 

I'll ask again - where does this idea come from that a PRE attack's effects just keep going and going like an energizer bunny, when nothing in the rules justifies that assumption?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

It wasn't me or the palindromedary

 

 

Well, if you faint (one possible effect of a big PRE atatck, I can't see the duration being limited to one turn. if you are 'following someone into any danger....ditto.

 

I can (as Dr A points out) only see 1 turn mentioned in relation to bonus PRE for resisting other PRE attacks...not the other effects. In fact nothing about duration is said at all. As to the repeated attacks I think it is there to stop you making an attack, rolling badly, then just keeping on doing it until you succeed: it is, aftereall, a zero phase action so you might as well do it evry turn until you get a good roll - or even just to make opponents lose a half phase every turn - that is what the 'repeats are less effectvie' rule addresses to my mind.

 

I mean it is a pretty good idea to require rolls every turn (with increasing penalties) but I don't think it is in the rules.

[zornwil]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

Well, in our group, PRE attacks so often come with lousy results (we've seen more than one PRE attack average at 1.x per die in results) that through sheer dumb luck they've gained this bad aura that they just don't work!

 

But that aside, the results of PRE attacks can be pretty effective, definitely overly-so. I find most players just roleplay them appropriately and it works okay. But I could see an issue easily enough, as mentioned. Then again, like anything else, if it become a "campaign highlight", there's PRE Defense, but more important than the arms race, it's definitely easy to assume a PC's constant repetition of a particular PRE attack is going to be less effective against trained agents and those studying him, let alone major NPCs.

 

One could argue "But what about Batman, he's ALWAYS scary even when people are used to him!" I don't think that's precisely true. Versus the low-grade mooks, sure, and he's got plenty of PRE to carry that off even IF one applied a "same old same old" penalty. But his main NPCs could care less, and trained types he always has to fight, he (mostly) doesn't just scare them off. So a "same old same old" penalty is reasonable, I think.

[Utech]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

I suppose the obvious answer to the problem of PRE Attacks being too useful is to simply cap PRE. I don't see anything wrong with the GM taking a look at your example character, Sean, and saying, "Interesting. No. Drop his PRE down to..."

 

Should you wish to go the Disadvantage route, an extreme PRE that causes others to want to kill you could really get ugly. After all, it has already been pointed out that PRE Attacks do not have a clear time limit... Imagine racking up new Hunteds after every fight. Imagine your character calling out your enemies and then finding out that since the battle was broadcast on CNN, every villian in the world with cable TV is on their way to beat the snot out of you...

 

Sounds like the beginning of a campaign to me.

[CBikle]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

For PCs and major, VIP NPCs, I think I'd go with the house rule that combat effects (lowered DCV, Dex hesitation, etc.) would still occur, but it would be up to the PC/NPC whether or not they flee from battle; engage in battle with bloodlust; etc.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

It's a long time since I played with a character who had excessive PRE. One of the things that I used to limit the effectiveness (the PC had perfected ways of making massed ranks of agents turn and run) was to allow leaders of the opposite side to have a casual PRE defence.

 

If the leader of the opposition has 20 PRE then he would have a 4D6 PRE attack. Half of that (casual) would be 10 PRE which would counter 2D6 of the attacking PRE attack.

 

This seemed a pretty fair way of counting in the effect of charasmatic or impressive leaders without requiring any rolls or anything else. Of course the same rule meant that the PCs were pretty much immune from PRE attacks while Mr PRE was around.

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

It's a long time since I played with a character who had excessive PRE. One of the things that I used to limit the effectiveness (the PC had perfected ways of making massed ranks of agents turn and run) was to allow leaders of the opposite side to have a casual PRE defence.

 

If the leader of the opposition has 20 PRE then he would have a 4D6 PRE attack. Half of that (casual) would be 10 PRE which would counter 2D6 of the attacking PRE attack.

 

This seemed a pretty fair way of counting in the effect of charasmatic or impressive leaders without requiring any rolls or anything else. Of course the same rule meant that the PCs were pretty much immune from PRE attacks while Mr PRE was around.

 

 

Doc

 

I like this idea a lot.

 

I'd limit it in this way: you have to actually have a LEADER: be it the villains (who often do) or the heroes (who often do their own thing and therefore don't): at least then there would be some advantage to having a leader figure. I'd enforce it by requiring, at least once a turn, the leader to issue orders. If the other PCs do as they are told then they are covered undert eh PRE umbrella, if not then they are on their own.

 

Of course this may make leaders more of a target and would mean that, potentially, if the leader got taken down that could be rather a blow to morale - so their may be advantages to NOT having a leader too

[Doc Democracy]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

Of course this may make leaders more of a target and would mean that' date=' potentially, if the leader got taken down that could be rather a blow to morale - so their may be advantages to NOT having a leader too [/quote']

 

Never took it this far but you could make the loss of a leader a free PRE attack on the footsoldiers using the casual PRE of the leader that had been lost.

 

So losing Corporal Joe Schmoe while taking a pill box would be a minor setback to the troops while losing Oliver Cromwell could result in a whole wing of the army turning tail and leaving the battlefield....

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

Never took it this far but you could make the loss of a leader a free PRE attack on the footsoldiers using the casual PRE of the leader that had been lost.

 

So losing Corporal Joe Schmoe while taking a pill box would be a minor setback to the troops while losing Oliver Cromwell could result in a whole wing of the army turning tail and leaving the battlefield....

 

It seems to me that, for every time the source material has the takedown of the leader demoralizing the team, there's an example of the team being galvanized when the leader gets taken down. "He took Cap down. Let's show him what 'Avenger' means!"

[Doc Democracy]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

It seems to me that' date=' for every time the source material has the takedown of the leader demoralizing the team, there's an example of the team being galvanized when the leader gets taken down. "He took Cap down. Let's show him what 'Avenger' means!"[/quote']

 

I guess it depends on the Psych limits and secondary leadership capabilities in the team.

 

The Avengers will all probably have strong 'team solidarity' psych limits that would counteract the demoralising effect of Cap getting taken down and there are a few other strong personalities in the team able to use these to rally the troops.

 

Morale is a strange thing - this is just a way of simulating the effects. You could reason that the rallying shout was made because the loss of Cap would otherwise detrimentally affect some of the lower presence group members.

 

You could also reason that the more often the leader gets taken down the less and less useful it becomes as a tactic!

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

I suppose that leaders ought to buy a PRE succor field:

 

Follow me into Hell: 4d6 PRE succor selective AoE (Radius) 0 END (+1/2) cannot stack (-1/2)

 

for 45 real points. Then, when they fell, there would be an automatic loss of team spirit, unless, of course they bought this too:

 

Avenge me!: 6d6 AoE selective triggered PRE aid 1 charge 50 real points