Aggravating exceptions

[Sean Waters]

As the system gets bigger and more complicated, there is an attempt to fix certain problems and we get caveats and exceptions.

 

Because we don't talk about design philosophy it is not always clear why those exceptions exist.

 

Fortunately I have you guys

 

Now one that I found (or had pointed out to me by ghost-angel) relates to limited characteristics. the general rule appears to be that if the limitation does not apply to figured characetristics too then you can hot have figured characteristics.

 

However, if you buy 'costs END' for a primary characteristic the figured characteristics don't have to cost END. For the life of me I can not figure out why we need this exception.

 

Anyone?

 

Also this is not the only example (I won't bore you with a list, but it would certainly include the damage adding rules) and on a more general point, my preference would be for the system to be written with complete consistency (if possible) and exceptions and fixes to be presented in side bars as options, rather than in the text as rules. It would make the game for more intuitive, which has always been a great strength of Hero to my mind: you can work out almost anything from basic principles. Having hardwired exceptions like this means you actually have to learn all the rules, which even I find a little off-putting.

[Phil]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

Two arguments

 

1. This is an example of where playtesting has revealed certain rules to require flexing, or at least to not be disadvantaged by allowing flexing, particularly where this reduces complexity or increases fun.

 

2. This is an example of sloppy system mechanics. Rather than create a mechanic that works, they just issue Windows Service Pack 2 which creates a whole load of messy exceptions ontop of the original coherent structure.

 

Choose your stance and duel to the death!

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

Well lets try it.

 

I'll buy 60 active points of DEX with a Costs End limitation, for a DEX value of 30 and a real point cost of 40. Thus, the hero Nimblefunk is born.

 

Figured characteristics... Hmm... Speed, OCV & DCV. Nimblefunk has a SPD of 6. She uses 2 End (30 of the 60 (hypothetical) AP in Speed came from her Dex of 30, but only 20 of that was actually bought with the Costs End limitation, so 2 END) every time her phase comes up? What if she holds her action instead of doing something?

 

I think they skip it because it barely makes sense in the first place, for about half of the characteristics. How the hell do you "use" your CON? BODY? Maybe INT and EGO, and maybe even PRE for Jedi Mind Tricks, but howsabout COM? "It's hard work being this pretty."

 

And, if we're going to apply it consistantly, shouldn't we charge END every time someone "uses" their PD, REC or their STUN?

 

I'm betting that's why. For consistancy. If it isn't done for STR, it shouldn't be done for any of them.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

Let's look at the only Char that costs END when you use it by default: STR. When you use STR you're not using END for the figured that your normal STR provides, now are you?

 

So, I would say the Costs End Limitation was changed to model that situation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

I think the strength allegory must be right, although strength in its base form is not limited per se, so there seems to me to be no real need to make the exception: the rule "you don't get figured characteristics for limited primaries unless the limitation also applies to the figured characteristics" is pretty clear - you'd never end up paying END for your stun or END because you would not take those figured characteristics costing END.

 

Trouble is this means I have one more thing to remember, which means I'm going to have to forget something else.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

 

Trouble is this means I have one more thing to remember' date=' which means I'm going to have to forget something else.[/quote']

You didn't need to remember your childhood did you? Or your kids names?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

I'll point out again that OCV and DCV are not Figured Characteristics. In fact they are not Characteristics at all. They simply have a base value that is computed from the current value of the Dex Characteristic.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

I generally have a problem with all of the complicated exceptions myself. Actually, maybe I just have a problem with their being explicitly listed out in the rulebook, as most of them are pretty common-sense anyway. If it is an interaction which is bloody obvious, or that half the GMs out there are just going to change anyway, why not just let it remain a common sense ruling?

[Phil]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

I'll point out again that OCV and DCV are not Figured Characteristics. In fact they are not Characteristics at all. They simply have a base value that is computed from the current value of the Dex Characteristic.

Can I just check why this is a significant distinction?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

Can I just check why this is a significant distinction?

Well, for one thing, you can't buy them up or sell them off. Sure, you can buy Skill Levels or Penalty Skill Levels to use with them, but you're not actually buying up the OCV or DCV itself. If they were Characteristics, you could buy them up directly.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

Well' date=' for one thing, you can't buy them up or sell them off. Sure, you can buy Skill Levels or Penalty Skill Levels to use with them, but you're not actually buying up the OCV or DCV [i']itself[/i]. If they were Characteristics, you could buy them up directly.

Yes. Also the clauses that deal with how Limited Characteristics-Bought-As-Powers affect Figured Characteristics do not apply to OCV and DCV (or OECV and DECV for Ego, or HTH Damage for Str, etc.).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

Can I just check why this is a significant distinction?

DEX; No Figured Characteristics does not add Speed, it will modify your OCV/DCV. That's why it's significant.

[Solomon]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

I think Bonedaddy nails it in one. Also, I think it's an argument in favor of getting rid of Figured Chars.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

Because you have to pay the END for the base characteristic to GET the figured stat, and so it IS being limited by the 'Costs End'. You don't have to gesture twice, or have two focuses, or concentrate for twice as long, do you?

 

That's my best guess.

[Lucius]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

Because you have to pay the END for the base characteristic to GET the figured stat, and so it IS being limited by the 'Costs End'. You don't have to gesture twice, or have two focuses, or concentrate for twice as long, do you?

 

That's my best guess.

 

So if I have +10 CON that costs END, it gives me 20 END for as long as I spend 2 END per phase; and as soon as I stop paying END, the extra 20 END go away?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders why, in that case, you wouldn't also have costs END on your END....uh, never mind.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

So if I have +10 CON that costs END, it gives me 20 END for as long as I spend 2 END per phase; and as soon as I stop paying END, the extra 20 END go away?

 

That would be my interpretation.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

So if I have +10 CON that costs END, it gives me 20 END for as long as I spend 2 END per phase; and as soon as I stop paying END, the extra 20 END go away?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders why, in that case, you wouldn't also have costs END on your END....uh, never mind.

 

That sounds reasonable. Don't get Stunned while low on END! (Seriously, it's limiting. And END that Costs END could be interesting... essentially, it'd be 'running on empty', pushing yourself to keep going past the point of exhaustion without taking STUN... until you can't keep it up).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

This little "inconsistancy" is why there is a No Figured Characteristics Limitation. Use that, and no inconsistancy, no problem.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

So if I have +10 CON that costs END, it gives me 20 END for as long as I spend 2 END per phase; and as soon as I stop paying END, the extra 20 END go away?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders why, in that case, you wouldn't also have costs END on your END....uh, never mind.

 

 

That is right according to the rules: and here is my problem: where is the limitation?

 

OK the extra CON switches off if you are stunned or KO'd (but you are in trouble anyway if that happens with the extra CON, and the END cost of paying for the extra CON is paid for for 10 phases by the figured characteristic. That is longer than most combats, so there seems to be a substantial cost saving but very little downside (on +15 CON you spend 20 points, saving 10, you get +3 ED, +8 STUN, +3 REC and +30 END, which will pay for the CON costing END for 10 phases). That 10 points only really becomes a limtiation in really long combats, which are going to be rare.

 

In fact, given your boosted REC, you'll get up to 16 phases of increased CON (assuming you are speed 5, you get up to 13 at speed 6, 20 at speed 4 and so on) without paying any END you didn't get from the increased CON (if you see what I mean).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

It can't be all that flaky, or else Gary (or Champsguy) would have had it on his ultimate munchkin rules abuse character sheet.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

It can't be all that flaky' date=' or else Gary (or Champsguy) would have had it on his ultimate munchkin rules abuse character sheet.[/quote']

 

You are quite right: what WAS I thinking?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Aggravating exceptions

 

That is right according to the rules: and here is my problem: where is the limitation?

 

OK the extra CON switches off if you are stunned or KO'd (but you are in trouble anyway if that happens with the extra CON, and the END cost of paying for the extra CON is paid for for 10 phases by the figured characteristic. That is longer than most combats, so there seems to be a substantial cost saving but very little downside (on +15 CON you spend 20 points, saving 10, you get +3 ED, +8 STUN, +3 REC and +30 END, which will pay for the CON costing END for 10 phases). That 10 points only really becomes a limtiation in really long combats, which are going to be rare.

 

In fact, given your boosted REC, you'll get up to 16 phases of increased CON (assuming you are speed 5, you get up to 13 at speed 6, 20 at speed 4 and so on) without paying any END you didn't get from the increased CON (if you see what I mean).

Remember that that extra +20 End isn't necessarily all there if you haven't had a chance to recover it. For example, if you turn on your +10 Con, use 15 End, turn off the extra Con (or have it turned off, "for," you due to being Stunned or whatever), then turn the extra Con back on again without getting any Recoveries in the meantime, you should still be at only +5 (current) End, not +20 (though successive Recoveries could get you back up to +20). That's just like the Growth rules for extra Body, etc.

 

When judging effectiveness, I find it more helpful to compare End costs to Rec rather than (or in addition to) the End characteristic myself. The character with the example power you showed is going to be using +2 End per Phase but only getting back +2 End per Turn (due to the extra figured Rec) unless they take Recovery actions. That itself can start to pile up there.