Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

[Kristopher]

I'm taking a break at work, and I've completely blanked on what the rulebook says, so I'm just asking this without that for now.

 

 

Situation: a character with 15 EGO, and 10 Mental Defense total, but no Mental Powers and no Mental Awareness, is being targeted by a 6d6 Cumulative Mind Control. The first roll is average does not equal or exceed his EGO (21-10 = 11, 11 < 15), so no effect, right? Now, the question is...does the targeted character realize that someone is attempting to Mind Control him? Why, or why not?

[Kristopher]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

What, is the title too vague?

[Roland]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

From 5E (not revised), p. 131:

 

"If the Effect Roll is insufficient to reach the desired level, the attack has no effect, but it does alert the target."

[Kristopher]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

OK. That's what I thought. Several discussions about using Cumulative on things like Mind Control seemed to be have an unspoken assumption to the contrary.

[Zed-F]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

To use Cumulative with Mind Control without alerting the target to the buildup, you add IPE (Hide Effects of Powers) which is +1 for mental powers. (+1/2, doubled.) That's where things start to get really broken as far as allowing a PC to do it, since you can build up an arbitrarily large Mind Control (or any other mental power) in non-combat time.

[Kristopher]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

To use Cumulative with Mind Control without alerting the target to the buildup' date=' you add IPE (Hide Effects of Powers) which is +1 for mental powers. (+1/2, doubled.) That's where things start to get really broken as far as allowing a PC to do it, since you can build up an arbitrarily large Mind Control (or any other mental power) in non-combat time.[/quote']

 

I see a lot of comments that don't include the mention of IPE, though. I don't know whether the posters of those comments are assuming that everyone will automatically know that they intend the inclusion of IPE, or if they're thinking that it will go unnoticed without IPE.

[austenandrews]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

Personally I think mental powers should default to invisible v.s. non-Mental Awareness senses. Because that's what they do in almost every piece of source material. I generally run it that way.

[Kristopher]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

Personally I think mental powers should default to invisible v.s. non-Mental Awareness senses. Because that's what they do in almost every piece of source material. I generally run it that way.

 

Whereas I tend to think that almost everyone should have a default mental sense that someone is tampering with their mind if the attempt to tamper fails (ie, the Mind Control or whatever roll is insufficient).

 

Otherwise Cumulative Mental Powers get really nasty, and that kind of nasty should be more reflected in the cost...that is, by requireing the IPE advantage.

[austenandrews]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

I could see having a Fringe Effect for default invisibility, so the target gets a "blind" PER roll. That way the more Cumulative attacks are thrown, the better chance the target has of perceiving one.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

I mentioned this in another thread, but I use a 15 point Adder called Unobtrusive to make Mental Powers the target can't perceive working on him. the Power is still visible to Mental Awareness, so while subtle, anyone with Mental Awareness (including the target) will be aware of its use (though the target will not be aware of any successful, or uncessful, effect).

[Kristopher]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

Whereas I would make that a matter of smart usage and good roleplaying on the part of the Mentalist.

 

This is just my opinion, but it seems to me that there are people who want Mental Powers to be quick, easy, and simple, just like punching someone in the face or blasting them with an EB.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Mental Powers should take some work, some finese, and some care, and shouldn't be just like EBs or STR or whatever.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

Whereas I would make that a matter of smart usage and good roleplaying on the part of the Mentalist.

 

This is just my opinion, but it seems to me that there are people who want Mental Powers to be quick, easy, and simple, just like punching someone in the face or blasting them with an EB.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Mental Powers should take some work, some finese, and some care, and shouldn't be just like EBs or STR or whatever.

 

I kinda agree with you, but it really depends on the genre and the setting. For most superheroic and fantasy games, Mental Powers need to be quick and hard hitting, like their EB or STR counterparts, at least by default. In a SF setting involving psions and the secret psychic police, such subtly and finese is such an integral part of the genre that it sould be required that Mental Powers operate as you describe by default.

[austenandrews]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

For my part, I've seen too many GMs make Mental Powers so difficult as to be effectively useless without 90+ Active Points in each one. It becomes impossible to accomplish anything meaningful without rolling EGO+50 or higher, even on Joe Normal; and failure is often much worse than simply not trying. Ergo PC mentalists wind up just EGO Blasting everybody.

 

Because of this, I take specific steps to make Mentalist a fun archetype to play. Mental Powers are already designed for finesse, without restrictive mechanics getting in the way.

 

I grant you, though, that Cumulative can be a very dangerous Advantage for Mental Powers. I'd definitely put restrictions on it, just not by restricting all Mental Powers.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

For my part' date=' I've seen too many GMs make Mental Powers so difficult as to be effectively useless without 90+ Active Points in each one. It becomes impossible to accomplish anything meaningful without rolling EGO+50 or higher, even on Joe Normal; and failure is often much worse than simply not trying. Ergo PC mentalists wind up just EGO Blasting everybody.[/quote']

Exactly!

 

And BTW, Cumulative does not allow an "arbitrarily large" effect. It only allows up to the amount you paid for. At the base of +1/2, you can accumulate only up to the maximum on the dice.

[Kristopher]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

For my part, I've seen too many GMs make Mental Powers so difficult as to be effectively useless without 90+ Active Points in each one. It becomes impossible to accomplish anything meaningful without rolling EGO+50 or higher, even on Joe Normal; and failure is often much worse than simply not trying. Ergo PC mentalists wind up just EGO Blasting everybody.

 

Because of this, I take specific steps to make Mentalist a fun archetype to play. Mental Powers are already designed for finesse, without restrictive mechanics getting in the way.

 

I grant you, though, that Cumulative can be a very dangerous Advantage for Mental Powers. I'd definitely put restrictions on it, just not by restricting all Mental Powers.

 

I don't want to make it difficult, I want to make it involved and detailed.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

OK, a little off thread, but....

 

My experience is that mental powers are very beefy indeed all the following could easily be accomplished with 6-8d6 against most opponents:

 

Mental illisuions: EGO+10 - friends look and act like enemies. That one is a show stopper: suddenly you have a new team member.

 

Telepathy: (Said aloud: So DO you know anything about the murder?) You then only need EGO+ to find outt he answer: because the target WILL be thinking about the question and what it means to them.

 

Mind Control: Get those bystander's out of harms way! Again only EGO+ for most heroes and it takes them out of the fight (Or 'You're losing - use your teammates to cover your getaway!' for villains)

 

The problem is that everyone has different interpretations, and implimentations, and GMs often err on the side of making mental powers harder to use than necessary so that a single mentalist doesn't completely derail the combat and the plot.

 

My preferred solution is to make the initial rolls relatively straightforward but pay real close attention to the breakout rolls and give bonuses if I feel it is appropriate.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

OK, a little off thread, but....

 

My experience is that mental powers are very beefy indeed all the following could easily be accomplished with 6-8d6 against most opponents:

 

Mental illisuions: EGO+10 - friends look and act like enemies. That one is a show stopper: suddenly you have a new team member.

 

Isn't it interesting how everyone always tries to use Mind Control to get a villain to attack his teammates when this approach is so much easier to accomplish?

[Kristopher]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

Telepathy: (Said aloud: So DO you know anything about the murder?) You then only need EGO+ to find outt he answer: because the target WILL be thinking about the question and what it means to them.

 

Would you give a person who suspected that a telepath was trying to scan him a roll of some sort to, say, concentrate his thoughts on something else?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

If you have it, use it

 

One thing that a lot of people I've seen play mind controllers tend to do is assume they can just 'bully' the target into submission with raw power when a few subtler commands will do far more:

 

You will attack your friends: Ego +30, probably. best of luck, and even if you do succeed, breakout is likely to be quick.

 

Or;

 

You believe I am not hostile to you (assuming no previous attack this combat)

You believe I am your friend

You believe your other friends are being mind controlled to attack me

You should KO your friends without really hurting them so we can get them un-mind controlled...

 

Yes it takes a lot longer, but each step is probably just Ego+10, and after the first or second you are probably safe anyway. It is much easier to apply and it will last a lot longer. The difference between Ego +30 and Ego +10 is 20 points, which translates to a -4 penalty on their breakout roll.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

Would you give a person who suspected that a telepath was trying to scan him a roll of some sort to' date=' say, concentrate his thoughts on something else?[/quote']

 

Yes, I think that is fair, but arguably that is what the breakout roll is for, and if they suddenly start thinking about pink elephants that might be telling in and of itself. I would make it an acting roll, probably, which means if you have not got it it is an everyman skill at 8- : if they make it then they might even be able to give the telepath false information, with a failure meaning they bungle the attempt and look even more guilty (assuming they are!)

[Kristopher]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

Yes' date=' I think that is fair, but arguably that is what the breakout roll is for, and if they suddenly start thinking about pink elephants that might be telling in and of itself. I would make it an acting roll, probably, which means if you have not got it it is an everyman skill at 8- : if they make it then they might even be able to give the telepath false information, with a failure meaning they bungle the attempt and look even more guilty (assuming they are!)[/quote']

 

 

I'd concentrate as hard as possible on something vile and nasty if I thought a telepath was scanning me, even if I were completely innocent.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

I'd concentrate as hard as possible on something vile and nasty if I thought a telepath was scanning me' date=' even if I were completely innocent.[/quote']

 

"...any time now... no one's found it and now there's nothing to do... is it time yet? Almost time yes... they'll never find the bomb in time... any minute it's going to explode... all those children... no one knows... any minute they will though... any time now..."

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

Would you give a person who suspected that a telepath was trying to scan him a roll of some sort to' date=' say, concentrate his thoughts on something else?[/quote']

 

I've give a person who suspected he was being interrogated or questioned an EGO roll not to think of what he's being questioned about. Telepathy really doesn't matter. It's a trick used to fool interrogators, so you don't give away too much in body language and general reaction. It's also a method of fooling lie detectors. Acting is easily a complimentary skill for this, and the Resistance Talent acts as a bonus to the EGO Roll.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

I've give a person who suspected he was being interrogated or questioned an EGO roll not to think of what he's being questioned about. Telepathy really doesn't matter. It's a trick used to fool interrogators' date=' so you don't give away too much in body language and general reaction. It's also a method of fooling lie detectors. Acting is easily a complimentary skill for this, and the Resistance Talent acts as a bonus to the EGO Roll.[/quote']

 

That's fair enough; it only counts for basic EGO level telepathy: anything deeper reads the memories and there is very little you can do on the spot to change them.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Attacks: Visibility Thereof

 

That's fair enough; it only counts for basic EGO level telepathy: anything deeper reads the memories and there is very little you can do on the spot to change them.

 

True. And also, there is nothing any interrogator can do to make something easier to read at that level, unless they can get it into the surface thoughts.