When should a GM allow missile deflection?

[Boulder]

Most area effect attacks can not be missile deflected. But lets say a Viper agent throws a gernade at the hero, should that hero be able to missile deflect the gernade?

 

Would you allow a chacter to missile deflest a car thrown bye a brick?

 

Isn't missile deflection just a way to Block ranged attacks?

 

But dont forget, can missile deflection effect a hand attack, espeiclly if the attacker is using streching?

[schir1964]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

Most area effect attacks can not be missile deflected. But lets say a Viper agent throws a gernade at the hero' date=' should that hero be able to missile deflect the gernade?[/quote']

The rules have already clarified this. If an Area Effect attack is delivered in manner that would make sense SFX wise, then the GM may allow the attack to be deflected. So again, if the SFX makes sense, then Missile Deflect may result in no damage, but if the SFX makes no sense, then Missile Deflect will not work at all.

 

Would you allow a chacter to missile deflest a car thrown bye a brick?

Again, if the vehicle is so large it wouldn't make any sense for the character to be able to actually push it aside, then no, otherwise yes. GM call, per the rules.

 

Isn't missile deflection just a way to Block ranged attacks?

No. And Steve Long has specifically said this in the FAQs. Block is not Missile Deflection, and Missile Deflection is not Block.

 

But dont forget' date=' can missile deflection effect a hand attack, espeiclly if the attacker is using streching?[/quote']

A stretching character is considered to be in Hand To Hand when attacking, thus the rules and restriction apply normally for Block and Missile Deflection. Therefore, the target could try to block the attack if he can perceive it, but not Missile Deflect it. The rules are fairly clear with the interaction of Stretching for the other two mechanics.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Trebuchet]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

Missile Deflection represents a way to avoid being struck by ranged attacks; and so can represent anything from blocking the attack with a light saber or shield to simply ducking out of the way quickly. Whether that would allow the character to deflect a thrown car depends on the SFX of the Missile Deflection and what Limitations it has been bought with. There is a standard -¼ "Will Not Work Against Heavy Missiles" Limitation available for Missile Defection to preclude deflecting cars and the like.

 

As to thrown grenades, in general I'd allow a character with MD to deflect a grenade if it would land in his hex. Of course, nothing says a grenade can't be thrown into an adjacent hex before it explodes.

[ghost-angel]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

As to thrown grenades' date=' in general I'd allow a character with MD to deflect a grenade if it would land in his hex. Of course, nothing says a grenade can't be thrown into an [i']adjacent[/i] hex before it explodes.

this is usually how I'd treat it, they deflect it a hex away, if it's an explosion that removes a DC from the attack at least.

 

If they have Reflection I'd say it allows them to catch and throw the grenade back...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

Most area effect attacks can not be missile deflected. But lets say a Viper agent throws a gernade at the hero' date=' should that hero be able to missile deflect the gernade?[/quote']

 

As others have noted, this is an SFX call. If that VIPER grenade has a timer, I'd let it be deflected. However, Viper may have grown tired of its grenades being deflected, and had them designed to explode on impact, so it goes off when the character bats it out of the way.

 

Would you allow a chacter to missile deflest a car thrown bye a brick?

 

Again, it depends on the sfx. Can it be batted aside with a billy club? No (and that character should have the -1/4 limitation for heavy missiles). Can it be avoided with hyper-reflexes? Absolutely. Can the lightsaber weilder Deflect it? Maybe he can slice it in half so it never strikes him, which seems a reasonable effect.

[Edsel]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

Most area effect attacks can not be missile deflected. But lets say a Viper agent throws a gernade at the hero' date=' should that hero be able to missile deflect the gernade?[/quote']

In order to be affected by Missile Deflection AE and Explosion attack must take the limitation Can Be Missile Deflected, I would say that a realistic, conventional hand grenade, which has a 3-5 second fuse, should be built with this limitation and therefore it would be possible to Missile Deflect it. If an AE or Explosive attack does not have this limitatin then technically it cannot be Missile Deflected.

Would you allow a chacter to missile deflest a car thrown bye a brick?

It depends on two things that I can think of right now. If the Missile Deflecting character has the Strength to pickup or move the car, yes. I have also seen a character or two whose Missile Deflection SFX were the ability to Dodge extremely well and that should also work in this case.

Isn't missile deflection just a way to Block ranged attacks?

It is very similar to a Block but not exactly. Skill levels that apply to Block do not automatically apply to Missile Deflection. The UMA has some optional rules about allowing a Martial Block to be used with Missile Deflection.

But dont forget, can missile deflection effect a hand attack, espeiclly if the attacker is using streching?

As I interpret the rules Missile Deflection cannot deflect a melee attack. Even if the attacker is using streching to attack a character it is still technically melee.

[Vondy]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

This is a question of SFX and what makes sense. Its a judgement call. A grenade, for instance, is something I would allow to be deflected, though it might land in an adjacent hex (and reflected - caught and thrown back - if it they had reflection with an appropriate SFX). As for cars - what's the SFX? A TK deflection field might work, while - masterful kung-fu is probably not going to cut it. There's no one ruling for every situation.

[Doc Tough]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

Doc sez...

 

Also remember to note the level of Deflection being used. Base Missile Deflection is for attacks aimed AT the character so that if a grenade is targetted AT the character it may be deflected, but targetting the hex the character may not be allowed to attempt the Deflection since the grenade ISN'T being aimmed at them.

 

Doc Tough

[Sean Waters]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

Most area effect attacks can not be missile deflected. But lets say a Viper agent throws a gernade at the hero, should that hero be able to missile deflect the gernade?

 

Would you allow a chacter to missile deflest a car thrown bye a brick?

 

Isn't missile deflection just a way to Block ranged attacks?

 

But dont forget, can missile deflection effect a hand attack, espeiclly if the attacker is using streching?

 

 

The confusion you experience with missile deflection is a direct result of the rather bizarre relationship that Hero has with sfx.

 

It is, in my opinion, the single biggest hole in the game plugged, inadequately, by 'well it's a GM call'.

 

MD is a good place to start becasue even the mechanics of buying it are sfx-riddled: you buy it to work against certain sfx, whether it works or not depends on sfx, and yet we devote six xolumns in the entire volume of nearly 3600 colums to special effects. The bottom line is: well, we haven't written that bit of the sysytem and don't intend to.

 

Now none of this is necessary. You could build sfx work-arounds into the system (for instance all ranged attacks are deflectable unless built with an advantage or adder), or you could say that sfx is in effect a seperate system, and actually have a chapter devoted to sfx interactions. Yes it would be a lot of work, and take up space, but it is not as if it isn't something that doesn't come up in every single session of every single game you play, one way or another, which is more than can be said for a lot of stuff that made it into 5ER.

 

So the answer to your questions is that there is not a right answer, merely suggestions; well, it's a GM call.

 

Thoughts, anyone?

[Sean Waters]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

Actually I'll tell you what could save the space for at least one and possibly more additional chapters in Hero: we could take out every instance of the phrase 'except with GM's permission', except for one right at the front. That would thin the text out a lot. I mean, you bought the book and no one is going to come round and beat the snot out of you if you don't play it as written. The constant reminders are really not necessary. In fact they are a pain in the neck.

[Doc Tough]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

Doc sez...

 

I have found the System's relationship with SFx and "GM's Permission" one of the positive aspects of the Game. It allows the player to NOT have to think of every little property of a power effect and have to model it. The GM is allowed to tweak situations based on a PC's SFx in order to further distinguish one character from another.

Of course, the GM needs to balance out the positives and negatives of a SFx and to be sure to prevent repetative uses of a power without making the frequently used SFx driven power be purchased.

 

Besides, I enjoy it when a player has enough interst in their character and their education to actually take the time to look into the properties of their PC's SFx.

 

Edward

[braincraft]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

It's kind of funny; in theory, someone with MD defined as slicing up projectiles before they reach him could slice a car in half if you threw it at him, but couldn't do a thing if you just drove it into him in the street.

[prestidigitator]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

It's kind of funny; in theory' date=' someone with MD defined as slicing up projectiles before they reach him could slice a car in half if you threw it at him, but couldn't do a thing if you just drove it into him in the street.[/quote']

Sure he could. He could Block the car's attack. Technically, at least.

 

Remember that Missile Deflection simply allows you to do a Block against a ranged attack. Of course, for some messed up reason it counts as a maneuver unto itself, so you cannot deflect a ranged attack and then Block a HTH (at -2 OCV, of course) with the same Block/Missile Deflection Action. I completely ignore this rule, as should any sane GM.

 

Now you can do the equivalent of Missile Reflection against HTH, I believe, but not as a standard maneuver; it takes a Martial Maneuver with the Redirect element. At least, that's my recollection (I don't actually own UMA yet, so I can't look it up ATM ).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

Actually I'll tell you what could save the space for at least one and possibly more additional chapters in Hero: we could take out every instance of the phrase 'except with GM's permission'' date=' except for one right at the front. That would thin the text out a lot. I mean, you bought the book and no one is going to come round and beat the snot out of you if you don't play it as written. The constant reminders are really not necessary. In fact they are a pain in the neck.[/quote']

 

Actually, I read most of those "GM Permission" as being stop/caution signs for aspects of a power.

[ghost-angel]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

It is' date=' in my opinion, the single biggest hole in the game plugged, inadequately, by 'well it's a GM call'.[/quote']

Funny - I consider that the systems biggest asset and most useful feature.

 

Allowing the GM & Players to alter such things dependant on the Game is a truly awesome feature IMO.

[Trebuchet]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

Funny - I consider that the systems biggest asset and most useful feature.

 

Allowing the GM & Players to alter such things dependant on the Game is a truly awesome feature IMO.

Amen, brother!

[prestidigitator]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

Allowing the GM & Players to alter such things dependant on the Game is a truly awesome feature IMO.

Yeah. I'd go a little further, though. Even systems like D&D now have the token GM-has-the-last-say statements somewhere at the beginning (even if they then get lost and are completely ignored by the player base). I'd say the great feature is a constant emphasis on, allowance for, and suggestions about system alteration and customization. Tools like the warning/stop sign flags make it clear that Hero is meant as a framework and not necessarily a fixed end solution.

[Boulder]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

Can the lightsaber weilder Deflect it? Maybe he can slice it in half so it never strikes him' date=' which seems a reasonable effect.[/quote']

 

I would have to say no, because the rules lawer of the party would want to know if the light sabre would be able to cut threw a car, and if it could what would stop someone TKing a player at the "Jedi" for a instant kill?

 

I'm, not saying that would happen, I am saying this could happen.

[Vondy]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

No, the lightsaber cannot cut threw a car.

[prestidigitator]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

No' date=' the lightsaber cannot cut [i']threw[/i] a car.

Oh, give him a break.

 

Anyway, I see what he means. If, "destructive SFX," are used for defensive Missile Deflection, it introduces a potential abuse if you are obsessed with logical consistency. So what happens if you pick up one of your enemies and launch him at your lightsaber-wielding allly, who decides to Missile Deflect him? Build the lightsaber to deal with the situation (Triggered RKA on top of MD)? I guess that would work, but how many other oddities are we going to have to build into that equipment...?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

Oh, give him a break.

 

Anyway, I see what he means. If, "destructive SFX," are used for defensive Missile Deflection, it introduces a potential abuse if you are obsessed with logical consistency. So what happens if you pick up one of your enemies and launch him at your lightsaber-wielding allly, who decides to Missile Deflect him? Build the lightsaber to deal with the situation (Triggered RKA on top of MD)? I guess that would work, but how many other oddities are we going to have to build into that equipment...?

Well, the "lightsaber" written up in Star Hero WAS written with a Damage Sheild that only affected things that touched the blade, so in this particular instance, it works admirably.

But it certainly is something that should be considered for "destroys the target" SFX missile deflection

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

Anyway' date=' I see what he means. If, "destructive SFX," are used for defensive Missile Deflection, it introduces a potential abuse if you are obsessed with logical consistency. So what happens if you pick up one of your enemies and launch him at your lightsaber-wielding allly, who decides to Missile Deflect him? Build the lightsaber to deal with the situation (Triggered RKA on top of MD)? I guess that would work, but how many other oddities are we going to have to build into that equipment...?[/quote']

 

"My Tunelling tunnels through 10 DEF. Why can't I tunnel through a person with less than 10 DEF? He should be destroyed."

 

"Because you didn't pay points for the effect of killing people, so that's not the way it works."

[Sean Waters]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

Block, the HtH version of missile deflection, allows you to avoid damage and you can do so by, for instance, taking the hit and toughing it out, knocking the blow aside or simply moving out of the way.

 

Personally if the lightsabre wielder was facing a thrown car I don't see why the same approach should not be employed. OK cutting the thing in half is going to do nothing to its mass or general direction but there's no reason that he couldn't just define the missile deflection as an avoiding move in that instance.

 

You've got to think in terms of sfx, and of course, if you do, almost anything is possibly, or at least justifyable.

 

Now my dig at sfx earlier in this thread was not entirely serious, but there are some serious issues there, and ditto the 'with GMs permission' bit.

 

I hear what Prestidigitator says - the constant repetition reinformces the importance and acts as a warning flag. Hmm. I have a better memory than that, and frankly I'd prefer a set of rules that just set out what you can and can't do and then had some brief discussion as to the reason for certain rules and the potential implications of changing them. The DnD book 'Unearthed Arcana' does this and is an excellent product. It doesn't just give the warnings it tells you why there might be problems, or advantages to a certain approach: the core DnD books don't suggest a lot of variation but is anyone under the impression that you CAN'T do anything you like in DnD with GM permission, or is is just Hero that has the 'system feature' that those playing it can, by mutual agreement, modify the rules and the way you play it?

 

It's not as if we are not incorporating sfx already, on a mechanical basis, but without acknowledging that is the case: take the 'focus' limitation - what is that but sfx we've decided to define mechanically? Now I know that because I'm familiar with the system and I've thought about these things for a long period of time, but it is not obvious and it is not pointed out in the text anywhere - well it wouldn't be - that's another thing we don't do - go behind the curtain. We already have sfx embedded in the system but we don't really talk about it.

 

I like the theoretical seperation of mechanics and sfx, but we don't carry it through half as much as we like to kid ourselves we do. We need to confront our sfx. Talking about it is not going to take away your freedom to do anything you want (with GM permission).

[Vondy]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

Could the SFX be defined as lightsaber + small force push to direct the cut edges away from the jedi with a narrow and dramatic near miss? I'm not saying I would allow it without some stipulations, but I can see it as being feasible if properly managed. Perhaps this is a use of a "multi-power-attack" (i.e., the player uses their TK and Missile Deflection together and pays endurance for both to create the effect). You could also do it Sean's way, which is dramatically appropriate IMO, but if one is concerned that it might be unbalancing to let them do AE attacks, then you can allow the player to do it another way - i.e., combining powers at a higher END cost.

[Sean Waters]

Re: When should a GM allow missile deflection?

 

Personally I rather like the TK/MD suggestion, but I'd probably argue (certainly if I was playing the character) that I did not take a limitation on the power to prevent myself being able to deflect heavy missiles, so I should be able to, dramatic sense be damned.

 

Of course, as the GM I might well respond; You're right - it makes no sense to be able to deflect that car, so the power clearly MUST have 'can't deflect heavy objects', nice catch; we'll add that on. Here's your 4 points saving back - you can spend that now if you like, maybe on flying dodge?

 

That makes me the GM and the player and has me arguing with myself, which is rarely a good sign....