PRE Attacks

[Dust Raven]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

I think the key is to have players who are going to role play their characters in this regard. The PRE attack mechanic' date=' in particular, is a good system, in my experience, for adjudicating just how impressed a character may be, and what game effects that may have. Without it, how many players would say "my character is taken aback by this show of force, and will lose his next phase in surprise"?[/quote']

I don't expect my player to voluntarily lose a phase for any reason, but if they are role-playing properly, they'll hold their action for defensive purposes only (I have a house rule that forces players to declare what event they are holding for, they are not allowed to just wait and see what happens and act at the last moment, and holding for defense is one option that allows them to do nothing but use their phase for aborting to a defense maneuver, should they be attacked). This happens quite a bit, as I'm running a quasi-horror Champions game. The stuff they run into is supposed to scare them, but I let them decide what they do about it.

 

 

 

Actually, I think your aproach is just one of varying style. Immunizing both PC's and major NPC's from these effects is balanced, IMO. That's very different from granting PC's an immunity and subjecting the major NPC's to the use of presence by the PC's.

Fair enough.

 

 

 

It's not overely heroic to get one punched because your defenses and STUN are on the low side and someone gets a good hit in. It still happens. Shine the Knightly should have been taken aside at character creation and had the dichotomy between his description of a "brave and courageous knight" and his 8 PRE and 10 Ego. Just as I would tell a player that their offense, or their defense, is pretty low for the game, I would also tell them that a low PRE will mean the character is prone to being intimidated or even frightened by powerful opponents.

Agreed on all counts, but only if the character's stats don't jive with the character's concept. I wouldn't expect a character with a low EGO/PRE to be super brave any more than I'd expect a character with low defenses to soak up most hits.

[David Johnston]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

Presence attacks are useful for those situations where you want a single major villain to put up a fight against a team capable of hurting him. Say it's Deathstroke versus the Teen Titans in the old days. He is not tough enough that they can't hurt him and while he's faster than any one of them, he only gets one action on phase 12, and then they all go, and he's done.

 

But with a presence attack, versus their relatively low presences (because after all they are supposedly inexperienced teen heros) he can briefly, just for that phase 12, throw them off balance, make them hesitate. They'll still probably win since he can only get in a couple of shots before they shake it off but it makes the one big bad versus a whole team an almost viable scenario without resorting to the tacky approach of just giving him so much defenses that the characters are useless against him.

[ghost-angel]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

fear being one of the most common forms of PRE attack...

 

"Courage is not acting without fear. Courage is acting in spite of it."

 

 

I think it's acceptable to let a PC or major NPC 'ignore' the effects of some PRE attacks as it can make for dramatic story...

[Mantis]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

I got a question back for you all though... why am I taking so much frack over this? I've found it gives the players of the highly special and different from everyone else protagonists (the main characters of the story) much more freedom with what they can do with those characters and it encourages role-playing (by eliminating roll-playing).

Well, I'm personally curious as to how you manage this particular approach without abuse on either side. I don't see it as right or wrong, just different. And I'm not sure it would work for all player groups, either.

 

Besides, since when is it heroic to tell a player "sorry Bob, I don't care how brave and courageous Shine the Knightly is, he's gonna spend a phase crapping his britches while Mungo the Mansquasher beats the living daylights out of him"?

Well, as I mentioned previously, this is an opportunity for roleplaying - Shine the Knightly, who presumably has spent a bunch of points on stats and powers to make him Brave and Courageous, has just frozen up in the face of danger, and now has to deal with something quite possibly new to his character - Failure. Maybe even Humiliation. Further, the rest of the team just saw Shiny freeze up and get his clock cleaned - changing their view of him, perhaps? Will they lose respect for him, or be there to reassure him? Has he previously been arrogant and superior towards his less-brave teammates, and will this dose of reality make him a better teammate? How will he react next time danger rears its ugly head? And so on.

[David Johnston]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

fear being one of the most common forms of PRE attack...

 

"Courage is not acting without fear. Courage is acting in spite of it."

 

 

"A man who can keep his head while while all around him are losing theirs, doesn't understand the gravity of the situation". I don't really see the drama in "ignoring" Presence attacks. Getting rattled for a moment and then overcoming that to act effectively strikes me as much more dramatic situation than just not being affected by something terrifying.

[Silbeg]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

(I have a house rule that forces players to declare what event they are holding for' date=' they are not allowed to just wait and see what happens and act at the last moment, and holding for defense is one option that allows them to do nothing but use their phase for aborting to a defense maneuver, should they be attacked). [/quote']

Technically, this isn't a house rule, but is the default for the HERO system.

 

Per 5ER 360 = "Typically, a character must either Hold his Action until a specified lower DEX, or to wait for a specified event (such as “I’ll wait until he looks at me†or “I’ll Dodge if anyone attacks meâ€)."

 

So, really, the ability to hold for anything would be the house rule.

[Rapier]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

When you think about it logically, PRE Attacks are happening constantly in the real world: when you pull over to accept that speeding ticket, when you step to the side to allow someone to pass in the hallway, when you quite down as someone steps to the podium, when some mugger points a knife at you.

 

In the game, though, that can get a little crazy. It also gives the players less of a feeling of control, that you are the one calling their actions and they aren't going to like it. I try to keep the PRE Attacks to a minimum. They have their uses, but we try only to use them when it's vital or important. If you yell "FREEZE!" and point your blaster ray at a guard, that's a PRE Attack and that will determine if he goes for his gun or not.

[Zeropoint]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

I don't really like the idea of forcing player character actions with game mechanics. Mind Control will obviously do that, that's what it's FOR. Presence attacks are arguably related to mind control, so you could make a case for PRE attacks affecting PCs per the rules. After all, that's how they work on any other character.

 

However, I think that the most satisfying solution would be to roll the attack, compare it to the PCs' stats and applicable Psych Lims, and then let the players roleplay their responses as they see fit.

 

If your players understand "roleplaying", they should do fine.

 

"A man who can keep his head while while all around him are losing theirs, doesn't understand the gravity of the situation".

 

"A man who can keep his head while all around him are losing theirs is probably the executioner."

[David Johnston]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

If the player is just making an honest mistake, or if he couldn't help it because there was a game mechanical reason why his character couldn't act at that moment then that's not a problem. Everyone makes mistakes, and he can't help what the dice do. But when my character gets his butt kicked because another player decided to be deliberately useless so he could steal some spotlight time with amateur theatrics...that annoys me.

[Dust Raven]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

Presence attacks are useful for those situations where you want a single major villain to put up a fight against a team capable of hurting him. Say it's Deathstroke versus the Teen Titans in the old days. He is not tough enough that they can't hurt him and while he's faster than any one of them, he only gets one action on phase 12, and then they all go, and he's done.

 

But with a presence attack, versus their relatively low presences (because after all they are supposedly inexperienced teen heros) he can briefly, just for that phase 12, throw them off balance, make them hesitate. They'll still probably win since he can only get in a couple of shots before they shake it off but it makes the one big bad versus a whole team an almost viable scenario without resorting to the tacky approach of just giving him so much defenses that the characters are useless against him.

 

Or the GM can just say his sudden and dramatic appearance counts as a surprise/ambush, meaning only he can attack on the first segment 12 and everyone else may abort, but uses their first Phase of the next Turn to do so. Even with such melodramatic overreaction as I've seen with Teen Titans, I doubt that the entire team can fall from the sky and surround him, only to have him make a PRE Attack to put them all off guard. He'll have jump out at them, taking them by surprise (and once he has surprise, he can take a no time action to blab and posture and gloat about how he's gonna smash them all).

[Dust Raven]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

Well' date=' I'm personally curious as to how you manage this particular approach without abuse on either side. I don't see it as right or wrong, just different. And I'm not sure it would work for all player groups, either.[/quote']

I already covered this in several previous posts.

 

Well, as I mentioned previously, this is an opportunity for roleplaying - Shine the Knightly, who presumably has spent a bunch of points on stats and powers to make him Brave and Courageous, has just frozen up in the face of danger, and now has to deal with something quite possibly new to his character - Failure. Maybe even Humiliation. Further, the rest of the team just saw Shiny freeze up and get his clock cleaned - changing their view of him, perhaps? Will they lose respect for him, or be there to reassure him? Has he previously been arrogant and superior towards his less-brave teammates, and will this dose of reality make him a better teammate? How will he react next time danger rears its ugly head? And so on.

 

Um... sure. And I'd like to be there when you tell the player he has no choice in the matter.

[Dust Raven]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

"A man who can keep his head while while all around him are losing theirs' date=' doesn't understand the gravity of the situation". I don't really see the drama in "ignoring" Presence attacks. Getting rattled for a moment and then overcoming that to act effectively strikes me as much more dramatic situation than just not being affected by something terrifying.[/quote']

 

My question would be, why must getting rattled require the character to be force into being less effective in combat? Isn't saying "Oh, god, the horror of it all!" a no time action? Besides that, don't most monsters and master villains sit there and bask in the glory of the horror they've causes for a moment or two, and then when they move to do something that motion suddenly inspires the hero into action? Yes, I've seen many a film where the fool just stood there and got eaten/blasted/whatevered, but 100% of the time that character was a bystandard/mook/background/supporting character, not one of the main protagonists.

[Dust Raven]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

If the player is just making an honest mistake' date=' or if he couldn't help it because there was a game mechanical reason why his character couldn't act at that moment then that's not a problem. Everyone makes mistakes, and he can't help what the dice do. But when my character gets his butt kicked because another player decided to be deliberately useless so he could steal some spotlight time with amateur theatrics...that annoys me.[/quote']

 

But it wouldn't annoy you if was the GM's decision rather than the other player's?

[Mantis]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

Um... sure. And I'd like to be there when you tell the player he has no choice in the matter.

You seem to have quite a hang-up on this point. I don't see it as an issue at all.

 

Do you control 100% of what happens to you in Real Life? Do you decide what your phobias are? Who you like and dislike? Who you fall in love with? Whether you win a promotion get laid off from a job? Ever been in a car accident of any sort? And so on. Things happen all the time we have no control over, and we have to respond to them the best we can. That's what we call "Life".

 

I see no reason why the same doesn't apply to a RPG - yes, your character may be the Boldest and Bravest PC in the game universe, but if I, as GM, send the Biggest and Baddest NPC in the universe at him, yes, the PC may fold up like an oragami swan, whether the player likes it or not (and my players have never objected to having events occur outside their control happen to them, nor have I ever objected as a player when the same has been done to me). Then the character will have to deal with the fact he has limits.

 

To me, THAT will make the PC into a Character rather than just a list of stats. Anybody can write up a character sheet that will continue to wade into mortal danger with a big grin and bucketloads of sangfroid day after day, or write up any character that is the best there is at what he does so that he never faces failure. But to me, a character only becomes a Character when he faces adversity, when he DOES have control taken away from him, and has to deal with the consequences - just as we do in RealLife. And as a GM, I consider it part of my role to place obstacles in the way of the characters so they have something to overcome. It may not be a pleasant journey, but it will help their characters grow, and in the end, IMHO it will mean more to them in the long run to have overcome these forced challenges. After all, the best "war stories" come from beating the odds.

[Manic Typist]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

You can't beat the odds if the GM makes you fold.

 

If you've got good players, they will react appropriately when you send the Biggest Bad at them.

 

If you don't, well, don't waste your time and special treats on them.

 

Oh, also, the reason why I personally feel it SHOULDN'T apply in an RPG as it does in life is because, well, it's and RPG. A game. Which is not real. Where things that are not realistic can occur. Where I can be something I'm not.

 

Yes, even someone that "knows no fear." If you want to instill fear into my character, then YOU, as the GM, need to WORK at it. I've worked hard to roleplay in a convincing manner a character that knows no fear while not being a suicidal maniac. Don't undermine my months of effort and involvement. Do your homework, lay the groundwork, turn up the heat, and put out your "A game." Roleplay WITH me, not roll play AT me.

 

It's late. Did that make sense?

[David Johnston]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

But it wouldn't annoy you if was the GM's decision rather than the other player's?

 

No more than any other attack delivered by a supervillain. It's no different from a punch or a mind control or transformation attack. Except that the effects of a Presence attack are far more minor than any of those things.

[David Johnston]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

My question would be' date=' why must getting rattled [i']require[/i] the character to be force into being less effective in combat?

 

My question would be: Why bother having Presence at all? Hero already has one meaningless stat that's only there for colour. Does it need two? If you can't use or be affected by Presence attacks, why not save the points? If Presence doesn't affect combat, why the heck would it be worth 2 points per?

 

As for examples of heros getting punked due to getting hit with a Presence attack in fiction, you need look no farther than Predator and Dutch's first good at the critter. The critter gets to go first because Dutch just stands there and says "What an ugly m-". It doesn't happen often of course. After all lead characters in action movies almost always have high Presences and nobody can do an effective Presence attack against a near-equal in Presence without a boatload of modifiers.

[prestidigitator]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

Except for the purely mechanical aspects (e.g. being 1/2 DCV) in certain circumstances, I really do let players roleplay the results. What I typically do is let the NPCs' abilities change the characters' (and possibly players') perception of events. I might change my description to the players based upon the rolls. I might tell the player that the NPC seems to be telling the truth, or definitely knows what he is doing, or seems very imposing. From there it is almost entirely up to the players. The effects can still be definite, but there is little feeling that the control of the PCs has been superceeded.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

If you've got good players, they will react appropriately when you send the Biggest Bad at them.

 

If you don't, well, don't waste your time and special treats on them.

 

Oh, also, the reason why I personally feel it SHOULDN'T apply in an RPG as it does in life is because, well, it's and RPG. A game. Which is not real. Where things that are not realistic can occur. Where I can be something I'm not.

 

Yes, even someone that "knows no fear." If you want to instill fear into my character, then YOU, as the GM, need to WORK at it. I've worked hard to roleplay in a convincing manner a character that knows no fear while not being a suicidal maniac. Don't undermine my months of effort and involvement. Do your homework, lay the groundwork, turn up the heat, and put out your "A game." Roleplay WITH me, not roll play AT me.

 

It's late. Did that make sense?

 

It makes sense to some extent. However, should I be able to say "my character is fearless" and the end result is that PRE attacks don't affect him, or should I purchase sufficient PRE, EGO, defensive PRE and/or Damage Reduction to PRE attacks so that, in fact, PRE attacks don't affect him?

 

There's a spectrum of role playing mechanics vs role playing mindset. At one extreme, we can have characters whose personalities are fully defined by statistics, so we just roll the dice and see what they do. Not very interactive, and a poor game, IMO. At the other extreme, we have "let's pretend" - no structure, no real rules, and no mechanics - we just engage in collaborative storytelling, with no way to resolve differences of opinion ("I shot you, you're dead." "No, you missed.")

 

The difference of opinion I'm seeing in this thread is that some wish to move a bit closer to "let's pretend" and eliminate the mechanics of the PRE attack and/or interaction skills in favour of letting the player decide when these abilities will, or will not, affect their characters.

 

I questiopn, however, how significant the difference is between allowing your charater to be fearless, and therefore never intimidated by high PRE opponents, with no point expenditure required, because that's part of his concept, and allowing my character to be indestructible - he never takes STUN or BOD - at no point cost, but simply because that's part of his concept. Just like PRE attacks, damage rolls are a mechanic intended to adjudicate how a character interacts with his environment, and with other characters.

[Manic Typist]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

It makes sense to some extent. However, should I be able to say "my character is fearless" and the end result is that PRE attacks don't affect him, or should I purchase sufficient PRE, EGO, defensive PRE and/or Damage Reduction to PRE attacks so that, in fact, PRE attacks don't affect him?

 

There's a spectrum of role playing mechanics vs role playing mindset. At one extreme, we can have characters whose personalities are fully defined by statistics, so we just roll the dice and see what they do. Not very interactive, and a poor game, IMO. At the other extreme, we have "let's pretend" - no structure, no real rules, and no mechanics - we just engage in collaborative storytelling, with no way to resolve differences of opinion ("I shot you, you're dead." "No, you missed.")

 

The difference of opinion I'm seeing in this thread is that some wish to move a bit closer to "let's pretend" and eliminate the mechanics of the PRE attack and/or interaction skills in favour of letting the player decide when these abilities will, or will not, affect their characters.

 

I questiopn, however, how significant the difference is between allowing your charater to be fearless, and therefore never intimidated by high PRE opponents, with no point expenditure required, because that's part of his concept, and allowing my character to be indestructible - he never takes STUN or BOD - at no point cost, but simply because that's part of his concept. Just like PRE attacks, damage rolls are a mechanic intended to adjudicate how a character interacts with his environment, and with other characters.

 

I see what you are saying, and I certainly agree with the gist of it.

 

If you want some measurable, qualitative, game benefit, then yes absolutely you should buy the stats necessary for it. Even in my "knows no fear" example, I would have bought up my PRE and EGO up fairly high so that my character SHEET reflected my CHARACTER. However, I didn't say this, because I foolishly assumed this was implicit. I apologize.

 

However, it's one thing to tell the player: "This guy actually scares you. You don't know why, and you don't know how, but he does. You've seen demons, murderers, and worse, and from all appearances this guy looks a blue collar paper pusher. Yet, for some reason, he makes your skin crawl when he looks in your direction," and then sit back and let the player roleplay. It is quite another to say that the character starts cowering, or runs away, or even flinches BADLY enough to mess up his actions.

 

Bascially, I do not think that you should use PRE to control a character. Use PRE rolls and stats to influence how you have the NPCs interact with the characters and how you describe them.

 

If your players aren't mature enough to react accordingly in these scenarios, then: A) You are wasting your effort by trying to foist something so interesting on them which they won't be able to appreciate, and They certainly won't be mature enough to deal with having their character taken over and essentially embarassed.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

If you want some measurable' date=' qualitative, game benefit, then yes absolutely you should buy the stats necessary for it. Even in my "knows no fear" example, I would have bought up my PRE and EGO up fairly high so that my character SHEET reflected my CHARACTER. However, I didn't say this, because I foolishly assumed this was implicit. I apologize.[/quote']

 

So, knowing that you've bought the stats high, how do you make a decision as to the point at which the character is, in fact, impressed enough to hesitate. The PRE attack provides an objective and measurable detremination of such a result.

 

However, it's one thing to tell the player: "This guy actually scares you. You don't know why, and you don't know how, but he does. You've seen demons, murderers, and worse, and from all appearances this guy looks a blue collar paper pusher. Yet, for some reason, he makes your skin crawl when he looks in your direction," and then sit back and let the player roleplay. It is quite another to say that the character starts cowering, or runs away, or even flinches BADLY enough to mess up his actions.

 

Bascially, I do not think that you should use PRE to control a character. Use PRE rolls and stats to influence how you have the NPCs interact with the characters and how you describe them.

 

Why? This is a measurable imact of fear/intimidation. How is this any less tolerable than telling you "That guy hit you hard enough to knock you out. You're at -15 STUN" instead of "He hit you really hard - you feel like a truck crashed into you" and asking you to role play whether you're stunned/KO'd and, if so, when you recover? Why should other results be measured objectively, and PRE relegated to subjectivity on the part of the player?

 

If your players aren't mature enough to react accordingly in these scenarios' date=' then: A) You are wasting your effort by trying to foist something so interesting on them which they won't be able to appreciate, and They certainly won't be mature enough to deal with having their character taken over and essentially embarassed.[/quote']

 

Well, by that logic, the players should either be mature enough to role play being KO'd as appropriate, and not need the dice to tell them, or they should be too immature to deal with having their character KO'd and defeated in combat.

[Dust Raven]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

You seem to have quite a hang-up on this point. I don't see it as an issue at all.

 

Do you control 100% of what happens to you in Real Life? Do you decide what your phobias are? Who you like and dislike? Who you fall in love with? Whether you win a promotion get laid off from a job? Ever been in a car accident of any sort? And so on. Things happen all the time we have no control over, and we have to respond to them the best we can. That's what we call "Life".

 

I see no reason why the same doesn't apply to a RPG...,

 

I do see what I consider to be very good reason. I, in real life, don't have a player with limited omnisentience of the universe surrounding me controlling my actions and reactions. To hold that parallel in an RPG, I'd essentially be an NPC, subject to the whim of the GM and random chance. A player character is a different entity entirely, with a single individual dictating all that he does or attempts to do. The character might have no say in the matter (and could he, being nothing more than a figment of the player's imagination), but the player does.

[Dust Raven]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

My question would be: Why bother having Presence at all? Hero already has one meaningless stat that's only there for colour. Does it need two? If you can't use or be affected by Presence attacks' date=' why not save the points? If Presence doesn't affect combat, why the heck would it be worth 2 points per? [/quote']

Wrong. I (nor anyone else posting in this thread) has said that any character can't use PRE Attacks.

 

As for examples of heros getting punked due to getting hit with a Presence attack in fiction, you need look no farther than Predator and Dutch's first good at the critter. The critter gets to go first because Dutch just stands there and says "What an ugly m-". It doesn't happen often of course. After all lead characters in action movies almost always have high Presences and nobody can do an effective Presence attack against a near-equal in Presence without a boatload of modifiers.

The mechanic I'd equate to that is Surprise, not a PRE Attack. It could also be that the predator simply has a higher SPD than Dutch and acts first anyway. Talking takes no time and can even be done during other character's Phases.

[Dust Raven]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

I questiopn, however, how significant the difference is between allowing your charater to be fearless, and therefore never intimidated by high PRE opponents, with no point expenditure required, because that's part of his concept, and allowing my character to be indestructible - he never takes STUN or BOD - at no point cost, but simply because that's part of his concept. Just like PRE attacks, damage rolls are a mechanic intended to adjudicate how a character interacts with his environment, and with other characters.

 

I see it as a non-issue personally. If a player wants his character to be fearless, I'll ask him to take a Psychological Lim for it. It's really more of a hinderance than an advantage. Same thing with a character that's a coward.

 

Comparing fearless to being invulnerable seems a bit of a stretch anyway. Getting hit with an attack and taking damage isn't the same as seeing something scary and losing an action. Also, there are so many ways I can disadvantage the PCs without using PRE Attacks and always achieve the exact result I desire. If I want a horrible monster that by it's very nature keeps those confronting it off their guard and slow to react, I can just give it some extra DEX and SPD to represent the affect it has on everyone around it. If I want something more interactive, I can give the creature a SPD Drain, NND versus a successful PRE Roll from the target. I might also give it a huge PRE because it's so horrid that nothing the PCs do to impress/frighten it will have any affect, but I'm not going to use that PRE as a weapon to cripple the PCs.

 

Besides, there should be game mechanis for combat actions and their results. It's a major part of the game and the details can be easily disputed. Role-playing is another matter entirely. There is no game mechanic for good role-playing. No one rolls dice to see if they are playing their character in character or not, and using PRE Attacks against a PC is just an attempt to force such rolls on or against the players.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

I see it as a non-issue personally. If a player wants his character to be fearless' date=' I'll ask him to take a Psychological Lim for it. It's really more of a hinderance than an advantage. Same thing with a character that's a coward.[/quote']

 

Like many things, it can be an advantage and a drawback. If it makes you immune to PRE attacks, I'd call that an advantage.

 

Comparing fearless to being invulnerable seems a bit of a stretch anyway. Getting hit with an attack and taking damage isn't the same as seeing something scary and losing an action.

 

Well, getting Stunned means you lose an action. Should the player decide when/whether his character gets stunned? After all, he knows how tough his character is, so he should be able to decide appropriately whether any given hit stuns him, and how much impact that has. This arbitrary rule that makes him lose an action should be removed, just like that arbitrary PRE attack making him lose an action, shouldn't it?

 

Also' date=' there are so many ways I can disadvantage the PCs without using PRE Attacks and always achieve the exact result I desire. If I want a horrible monster that by it's very nature keeps those confronting it off their guard and slow to react, I can just give it some extra DEX and SPD to represent the affect it has on everyone around it. If I want something more interactive, I can give the creature a SPD Drain, NND versus a successful PRE Roll from the target. I might also give it a huge PRE because it's so horrid that nothing the PCs do to impress/frighten it will have any affect, but I'm not going to use that PRE as a weapon to cripple the PCs.[/quote']

 

Why is using a PRE attack so much more horrible and unfair than using a SPD or DEX drain? And now I have to ask why the impact of this horribly frightening beast on both the Coward (with 13 PRE) and the Fearless (20 PRE + 30 Defensive Only PRE) should be identical.

 

Besides' date=' there should be game mechanis for combat actions and their results. It's a major part of the game and the details can be easily disputed.[/quote']

 

Absolutely. Getting taken off guard and shocked/impressed by an opponent to the point you hesitate in acting is also a part of the game (not quite so major) whose results can be easily disputed. Hence a game mechanic to remove that subjectivity.

 

Role-playing is another matter entirely. There is no game mechanic for good role-playing. No one rolls dice to see if they are playing their character in character or not' date=' and using PRE Attacks against a PC is just an attempt to force such rolls on or against the players.[/quote']

 

I assume, then, that you also don't require dice be rolled to adjudicate whether a PC may breach a psychological limitation. Clearly, they should have the ability to do so at their discretion, as this is role playing.

 

As well, Mind Control should be removed from mechanics. After all, I know how string willed my character is, and the aversion he may have to taking any specific ordered action.

 

Should I also get to decide whether my character perceives something or not? After all, I know how attentive he is to detail, and how perceptive, so don't be using dice to tell me whether my character notices something - I can just tell you. It's good role playing (btw, that also means get rid of mental illusions and images - I'll tell you whether my character is tricked.

 

You seem to think that PRE is somehow a completely different animal from the various other dice rolling mechanics inherent in the game. Obviously, I disagree. It is simply one more mechanic for making an objective determination of character interaction with other characters and with their environment, rather than a subjective determination. You have decided you prefer it be subjective, and that's fine. But it's silly, in my view, to try to demarcate PRE attacks as somehow being "anti-role playing".