PRE Attacks

[Old Man]

I understand the general use of them but I was wondering, do people have PRE attacks affect PCs?

[Edsel]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

I have before but generally I consider them as useful against NPCs. Most player characters have a high enough PRE or EGO that they can shrug-off all but the most powerful PRE attacks.

 

EDIT: The above applies to superheroic games. I use PRE quite a bit more in some Heroic games, for instance, Horror. When I first replied to this I thought I was in the Champions thread.

[Mantis]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

I understand the general use of them but I was wondering' date=' do people have PRE attacks affect PCs?[/quote']Sure - it's a great opportunity for role-playing. It's not just the in-combat cower-before-the-might-of [impressive Villian Name Here], but the post-combat soul-searching - questioning of their courage/motivation/etc, the feeling of letting down their team-mates (if not everyone cowered), the search for redemption, yadda yadda. As long as it isn't over-done, angst from a momentary failure shouldn't become the focus of the campaign!

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

Sure - it's a great opportunity for role-playing. It's not just the in-combat cower-before-the-might-of [impressive Villian Name Here]' date=' but the post-combat soul-searching - questioning of their courage/motivation/etc, the feeling of letting down their team-mates (if not everyone cowered), the search for redemption, yadda yadda. As long as it isn't over-done, angst from a momentary failure shouldn't become the focus of the campaign![/quote']

 

Unfortunately, I once had a GM who 'extended' the PRE attack chart where every 10 more points cost you another Phase, then had a villain throw his entire 100pt VPP into Extra Presence on top of his already high (40 or so, offensively) PRE ... forcing all of us to stand there and simply get beaten on. We couldn't even shake out of it like Mind Control ...

[prestidigitator]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

Sure they can affect PCs. Dragons like to cow people. It makes them feel appreciated.

[Dust Raven]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

As a general, unspoken/unwritten, rule in my games, player characters are immune to PRE Attack and uses of Interaction Skills against them. Their reactions are, and in my opinion should be, based solely through role-playing. If I present them with a scary dragon or the master villain stands silhouetted in darkness, or a potential buyer tries to haggle the price of an item they're selling, I let the players decide how their characters will react. It's a bit of a hack to tell a player they must reveal some bit of information, must lower the price of whatever they are selling, must believe the wild story of the spy they discovered or must cower in fear for some time for any reason. If the player feels it's appropriate for their character, then great, but if not, then that's great too! It's their character after all.

[Mantis]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

As a general' date=' unspoken/unwritten, rule in my games, player characters are immune to PRE Attack and uses of Interaction Skills against them. Their reactions are, and in my opinion should be, based solely through role-playing.[/quote']So how do you (and/or your players) handle interaction Skill-vs-Skill rolls when they come up? Just curious.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

As a general' date=' unspoken/unwritten, rule in my games, player characters are immune to PRE Attack and uses of Interaction Skills against them. Their reactions are, and in my opinion should be, based solely through role-playing. If I present them with a scary dragon or the master villain stands silhouetted in darkness, or a potential buyer tries to haggle the price of an item they're selling, I let the players decide how their characters will react. It's a bit of a hack to tell a player they must reveal some bit of information, must lower the price of whatever they are selling, must believe the wild story of the spy they discovered or must cower in fear for some time for any reason. If the player feels it's appropriate for their character, then great, but if not, then that's great too! It's their character after all.[/quote']

 

This at least ensures that the players don't get annoyed that their characters are being controlled outside their will. On the other hand, I question why PC's should be immune when no one else is. Is it less likely for that investigative reporter to trip up VigilanteMan with a clever line of questioning than that she will catch Senator Bedfellow's indiscretions?

 

If the villains and NPC's aren't going to get full benefit for their skills and PRE, they should get a discount in the price. The PC with a 40 PRE expects to have an impact on the oppositin for the points he paid, so why shouldn't his 15 PRE teammate expect to be affected by high PRE opponents?

 

Another approach would be a universal rule that interaction skills and PRE attacks only affect mook level characters, such that PC's and major NPC's will be immune to these effects across the board. That way, everyone's PRE attacks and interaction skills are affected equally.

 

[nb: I suggested a discussion of interaction skills' impact on PC's the other day for The Ultimate Skill.]

[ghost-angel]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

I generally leave it to Role-Playing with the results of the PRE Attack guiding my actions as a Player. The PRE Attack is not hard and fast vs Players but can be a helpful guideline.

 

Though sometimes the GM forgets Disads like trying a Fear PRE Attack on the character who is utterly unafraid of being hurt/killed due to Overconfidence and Regeneration..... then I completely ignore the PRE Attack.

[Dust Raven]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

So how do you (and/or your players) handle interaction Skill-vs-Skill rolls when they come up? Just curious.

Players use such Skills (and PRE Attacks) to influence NPCs, and NPCs use them to influence each other. NPCs also use them to resist/counter PCs use of such attempts against them. As a GM, these mechanics are a shortcut to deciding the reactions of the multitude of characters I end up playing and give the PCs a concrete mechanic/method to influence the campaign world.

 

This at least ensures that the players don't get annoyed that their characters are being controlled outside their will. On the other hand, I question why PC's should be immune when no one else is. Is it less likely for that investigative reporter to trip up VigilanteMan with a clever line of questioning than that she will catch Senator Bedfellow's indiscretions?

Mainly because I, the GM, do not run the PCs, and I use those mechanics to determine the reactions of NPCs. As for the chances to trip of a PC versus an NPC, it tends to blanance out, only instead of a random roll forcing the PC to trip up, they can trip up all on their own.

 

If the villains and NPC's aren't going to get full benefit for their skills and PRE, they should get a discount in the price. The PC with a 40 PRE expects to have an impact on the oppositin for the points he paid, so why shouldn't his 15 PRE teammate expect to be affected by high PRE opponents?

They don't get less than full benefit. It just looks that way because of the half dozen people sitting in your living room rolling dice. There are millions of NPCs to influence, and in any given scenario there are chances to influence several dozen of those NPCs.

 

Another approach would be a universal rule that interaction skills and PRE attacks only affect mook level characters, such that PC's and major NPC's will be immune to these effects across the board. That way, everyone's PRE attacks and interaction skills are affected equally.

That would be the other half of my unwritten rule. Typically, no one ever attempts a PRE Attack against Dr. Destroyer or attempt to Persuade him in any way. His henchmen, however, are something else. It also fits the genre (any genre) to make such attempts against lesser characters such as henchmen, mooks, bystandards, etc.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

Mainly because I, the GM, do not run the PCs, and I use those mechanics to determine the reactions of NPCs. As for the chances to trip of a PC versus an NPC, it tends to blanance out, only instead of a random roll forcing the PC to trip up, they can trip up all on their own.

 

They don't get less than full benefit. It just looks that way because of the half dozen people sitting in your living room rolling dice. There are millions of NPCs to influence, and in any given scenario there are chances to influence several dozen of those NPCs.

 

The Hero can use his 60 PRE, and 21- interaction skills, to influence both mooks and opposition on an equal point level (though not an equal PRE level). The villain with the same PRE and interaction skills cannot use them on the PC's, who are his opposition. To me, the PC's are getting a free immunity not granted to any of the NPC's.

 

That would be the other half of my unwritten rule. Typically' date=' no one ever attempts a PRE Attack against Dr. Destroyer or attempt to Persuade him in any way. His henchmen, however, are something else. It also fits the genre (any genre) to make such attempts against lesser characters such as henchmen, mooks, bystandards, etc.[/quote']

 

If the skills are restricted to mooks/henchmen/bystanders for both NPC and PC, then I think the system is equitable to both PC and NPC, as both PC and equivalent level NPC receives the same immunity.

[Silbeg]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

I generally leave it to Role-Playing with the results of the PRE Attack guiding my actions as a Player. The PRE Attack is not hard and fast vs Players but can be a helpful guideline.

 

Though sometimes the GM forgets Disads like trying a Fear PRE Attack on the character who is utterly unafraid of being hurt/killed due to Overconfidence and Regeneration..... then I completely ignore the PRE Attack.

 

 

This is a great way to handle it.

 

It has been my experience that it often happens that role-playing often drops by the wayside when players are struggling to solve problems... whether it is a mystery to solve, or combat.

 

An example from the North Force's last session.

 

Following a lead on a potential dangerous drug supplier, the North Force went to a supposedly abandoned warehouse in northern River City. They had scouted the area for the previous few days, but saw nothing.

 

When they arrived in the 1978 Coupe de Ville (that they had taken from a drug bust), they were brought into the warehouse. The were greeted by a couple of VIPER agents, and determined there were a few more in a second-story office.

 

Being the heroes that they were, they attacked the VIPER agents, prompting a response in kind. Of course, the "hired muscle" in the office included Ripperette (a less powerful, female version to Ripper). Ripperette raged for a while against Agent Kessler, with Aegis blocking for him so that he could use his Modulated Laser against the brick.

 

Once Ripperette's Omicron Boost wore off, she recovered some of her reason, and determined that she needed to get away from the lost cause. To that end, she ran to, and grabbed, Traveller, generally percevied as the team's "weakest link".

 

Ripperette then had her helpless hostage, and threatened to kill Traveller if she wasn't allowed to escape. Aegis, and The Wave held off from attacking her, but Kessler chose to attack (with a Takedown maneuver), since "what else was he going to do?"

 

In this case, I did not make the PRE attack that I should have. Two of the 5 players there were playing their characters as if I had, though one did not. The several extra dice that Ripperette would have gotten in this situation would have probably cowed the team, and hopefully Kessler wouldn't have attempted this ill-advised maneuver.

 

As it was, Ripperette, pissed off, as you would imagine, used poor Traveller as a club, clobbering Kessler. Unfortunately, Traveller received near-mortal wounds from that.

 

So, lesson learned.. you can't always count on players to properly role-play... but, this has opened up a rp situation, for our next session!

[Dust Raven]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

The Hero can use his 60 PRE' date=' and 21- interaction skills, to influence both mooks and opposition on an equal point level (though not an equal PRE level). The villain with the same PRE and interaction skills cannot use them on the PC's, who are his opposition. To me, the PC's are getting a free immunity not granted to any of the NPC's.[/quote']

I disagree, but only because any NPC, by definition, has no player to decide his reactions. The dice roll decide his reactions. The dice don't decide a player character's decision based reactions. Ever. At least not in my games.

 

 

 

If the skills are restricted to mooks/henchmen/bystanders for both NPC and PC, then I think the system is equitable to both PC and NPC, as both PC and equivalent level NPC receives the same immunity.

 

As I said, this is the way I typically run the game. I don't expect the players to even attempt such things against certain characters for the same reason they shouldn't expect me to use such things against their own.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

I disagree, but only because any NPC, by definition, has no player to decide his reactions. The dice roll decide his reactions. The dice don't decide a player character's decision based reactions. Ever. At least not in my games.

 

As I said, this is the way I typically run the game. I don't expect the players to even attempt such things against certain characters for the same reason they shouldn't expect me to use such things against their own.

 

I would say the NPC's have the GM to guide their decisions. Sure, the GM can be biased in his decision making. So can the players, say when their "narcissistic" PC is clearly being flattered to get him to take an ill-considered action. As long as everyone is being reasonable, the results should be OK.

 

Ofr course, this would only apply to NPC's where the GM has put in the time and effort to have a reasonably developed personality sketch for the NPC, however - for others, the random die roll works fine. All PC's fall into the "developed" category, since the player is only running one character.

 

This dovetails nicely with the second issue. From my read, in your games, if a character has a detailed background/personality (which would generally mean he's a PC or a significant NPC), interaction skills don't work. If they don't, they are mooks and interaction skills can decide their actions.

 

To me, it still makes sense that a convincing orator could sway a PC, especially if he plays on that PC's psychological limitations. But if my PC (or your NPC) takes the Psych lim "Gullible and easily manipulated", then I should be role playing that by being swayed anyway, dice roll or not.

 

I would not, however, go so far as to make PC's immune to PRE attacks. If your character has a 10 PRE and an 11 EGO, he's reasonably easy to impress, and may well hesitate in combat as a consequence. That's no different than a character with a low CON being Stunned, or a low DCV being hit.

[McCoy]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

PC's and Name Level NPC's (major villians) are immune to PRE attacks beyond the first level (hesitates, let's opponent act first). PRE attacks have full effect vs DNPC's, agents, your police backup, bystanders, etc.

[Dust Raven]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

I would not, however, go so far as to make PC's immune to PRE attacks. If your character has a 10 PRE and an 11 EGO, he's reasonably easy to impress, and may well hesitate in combat as a consequence. That's no different than a character with a low CON being Stunned, or a low DCV being hit.

 

I would still agrue that this is purely a matter of role-playing. I as GM would probably penalize a character with low PRE/EGO for acting fearlessly/unphazable in the face of something truly frightening/impressive, while I would reward the one that does act completely in character.

 

A character has no choice whether or not he is hit or Stunned by an attack; in these cases, the dice (or the GM, but never the player or character) make the decision.

[ideasmith]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

The dice don't decide a player character's decision based reactions. Ever. At least not in my games.

 

How do you handle the Enraged Disadvantage, which has die rolls built into the mechanics?

[David Johnston]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

I would still agrue that this is purely a matter of role-playing. I as GM would probably penalize a character with low PRE/EGO for acting fearlessly/unphazable in the face of something truly frightening/impressive, while I would reward the one that does act completely in character.

 

A character has no choice whether or not he is hit or Stunned by an attack; in these cases, the dice (or the GM, but never the player or character) make the decision.

 

Do you think characters choose to be overawed or frightened?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

Do you think characters choose to be overawed or frightened?

 

"I choose not to be scared of the dragon."

 

Most people don't WANT to be intimidated by a bullying co-worker either, but they are, for whatever reason. Hence my belief PRE attacks are closer to taking STUN than being coerced.

 

Mind you, how many people have never said "How did I let myself get talked into that?"

[CBikle]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

It's only come up once (because I usually forget to have NPCs do PRE attacks).

 

Basically, all the combat effects will still happen (reduced DCV, hesitating a phase, etc.), but how the character reacts (running away, going into a berserk rage, etc) will ultimately be determined by the player.

[Dust Raven]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

How do you handle the Enraged Disadvantage, which has die rolls built into the mechanics?

 

That's not a decision based response.

[ideasmith]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

That's not a decision based response.

 

Nor are the results of Presence Attacks.

[Dust Raven]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

Do you think characters choose to be overawed or frightened?

"I choose not to be scared of the dragon."

 

Most people don't WANT to be intimidated by a bullying co-worker either, but they are, for whatever reason. Hence my belief PRE attacks are closer to taking STUN than being coerced.

As a correction to my previous post: It's the player's decision how the character reacts. As I GM, all I do is give appropriate descriptors, always based on the situation and usually based on the character's PRE and EGO Characteristics. I'll say "it's a horrible monstrous attrocity" or "Captain Crusader gives a heartfelt, emotionally moving speach." I still let the players decide if their characters are frightened or emotionally moved.

 

Mind you, how many people have never said "How did I let myself get talked into that?"

The player characters in my games tend to say that a lot actually. The players don't say it, just the characters. The players know exactly how. It's usually because they know their character is a gullible goody-goody hero who'll jump at the beck and call of any old granny who says her cat's caught in a tree. The character is dumbfounded, however.

 

I got a question back for you all though... why am I taking so much frack over this? I've found it gives the players of the highly special and different from everyone else protagonists (the main characters of the story) much more freedom with what they can do with those characters and it encourages role-playing (by eliminating roll-playing).

 

Besides, since when is it heroic to tell a player "sorry Bob, I don't care how brave and courageous Shine the Knightly is, he's gonna spend a phase crapping his britches while Mungo the Mansquasher beats the living daylights out of him"?

[Dust Raven]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

Nor are the results of Presence Attacks.

 

I disagree. See my previous posts.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: PRE Attacks

 

As a correction to my previous post: It's the player's decision how the character reacts. As I GM, all I do is give appropriate descriptors, always based on the situation and usually based on the character's PRE and EGO Characteristics. I'll say "it's a horrible monstrous attrocity" or "Captain Crusader gives a heartfelt, emotionally moving speach." I still let the players decide if their characters are frightened or emotionally moved.

 

The player characters in my games tend to say that a lot actually. The players don't say it, just the characters. The players know exactly how. It's usually because they know their character is a gullible goody-goody hero who'll jump at the beck and call of any old granny who says her cat's caught in a tree. The character is dumbfounded, however.

 

I think the key is to have players who are going to role play their characters in this regard. The PRE attack mechanic, in particular, is a good system, in my experience, for adjudicating just how impressed a character may be, and what game effects that may have. Without it, how many players would say "my character is taken aback by this show of force, and will lose his next phase in surprise"?

 

I got a question back for you all though... why am I taking so much frack over this? I've found it gives the players of the highly special and different from everyone else protagonists (the main characters of the story) much more freedom with what they can do with those characters and it encourages role-playing (by eliminating roll-playing).

 

Actually, I think your aproach is just one of varying style. Immunizing both PC's and major NPC's from these effects is balanced, IMO. That's very different from granting PC's an immunity and subjecting the major NPC's to the use of presence by the PC's.

 

Besides' date=' since when is it heroic to tell a player "sorry Bob, I don't care how brave and courageous Shine the Knightly is, he's gonna spend a phase crapping his britches while Mungo the Mansquasher beats the living daylights out of him"?[/quote']

 

It's not overely heroic to get one punched because your defenses and STUN are on the low side and someone gets a good hit in. It still happens. Shine the Knightly should have been taken aside at character creation and had the dichotomy between his description of a "brave and courageous knight" and his 8 PRE and 10 Ego. Just as I would tell a player that their offense, or their defense, is pretty low for the game, I would also tell them that a low PRE will mean the character is prone to being intimidated or even frightened by powerful opponents.