Experience increasing

[prestidigitator]

Re: Experience increasing

 

I have to be bribed with whole boxes of cookies to allow someone to spend XP on characteristics. Generally once or twice in the lifetime of a character will I allow it, and only with justificataion. Such as a young person growing up and/or significant passage of time, or rigorous in-play training.

Skills require in-game usage, or in some cases an educational resource. Six weeks of exploring dungeons isn't going to allow you to buy up your Riding skill. You aren't going to be able to increase your knowledge of Chemistry without a teacher, school, lab or reference texts.

 

Keith "Common Sense" Curtis

Well, Mr. Common Sense, sir, your eyes seem to be glowing, and you have a bit of a blue pallor there. Just thought I'd mention.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Experience increasing

 

I have to be bribed with whole boxes of cookies to allow someone to spend XP on characteristics. Generally once or twice in the lifetime of a character will I allow it, and only with justificataion. Such as a young person growing up and/or significant passage of time, or rigorous in-play training.

 

Skills require in-game usage, or in some cases an educational resource. Six weeks of exploring dungeons isn't going to allow you to buy up your Riding skill. You aren't going to be able to increase your knowledge of Chemistry without a teacher, school, lab or reference texts.

 

Well, I wouldn't want to be unrealistic. I guess instead of spending points to raise my STR, improve my Riding skill or learn the Security System skill, I'll buy a magic spell that enables me to fly. Yes, that's much more realistic

 

In most games, we don't see all the character's time, only the exciting bits. Maybe he's reading chemistry texts in the evening, or between battles with the villains. Perhaps he's taking riding lessons when we're back in town healing up and reprovisioning. He could be engaging in an exercise regimen every night before he goes to sleep.

 

If I restrict a player's ability to buy up characteristics with xp, all I'm really doing is suggesting he buy them up as a starting character, and spend his xp buying his skills up later instead, to get the end result he envisions. In more exotic games, a background which allows for certain abilities to increase due to the nature of the character also becomes quite advantageous.

 

Restricting the ability to spend xp often just results in players figuring out how best to game the GM's system. Don't start with a 15 STR, a 15 DEX and full Skills and some skill levels - start with a 20 SR and a 20 DEX, paid for by having fewer or no skill levels, and Familiarities rather than Skills. The GM will seldom if ever let you buy up your characteristics, but you just need to practice your skills. 20 xp brings your skills back up to where you would have liked to start, but you won't be allowed to spend that same 20 xp to get the stats you ultimately envisioned the character having.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Experience increasing

 

What about those of us who aren't already a good GM' date=' though? We need a better solution than merely being told to "Just go out and do it!", i.e., a system or rule of some kind. If there are just one or two areas in which we aren't a good GM, we should be able to find some sort of help on how to fix that. It's the rare GM who starts out perfect [/quote']

practice, practice, practice.

[Mike W]

Re: Experience increasing

 

I have to be bribed with whole boxes of cookies to allow someone to spend XP on characteristics. Generally once or twice in the lifetime of a character will I allow it, and only with justificataion. Such as a young person growing up and/or significant passage of time, or rigorous in-play training.

Skills require in-game usage, or in some cases an educational resource. Six weeks of exploring dungeons isn't going to allow you to buy up your Riding skill. You aren't going to be able to increase your knowledge of Chemistry without a teacher, school, lab or reference texts.

 

Keith "Common Sense" Curtis

 

I don't know as I would go that far. I mean, a character who spends a lot of time flying and fighting is constantly using his DEX in difficult, high stress situations that are as good or better for sharpening reflexes as any obstacle course could ever be. And in general, we tend to start with "ideal" versions of a character and then settle for making a "starting" version. Who has the points for the max characteristics and all the powers and skills for their character idea right from the start. I may start with 350, but the characters I envision are usually around 600. Same goes for most people I know. If the character had to cut something important in generation because there just "wasn't room for it", I'm not going to be too tough on them buying it early.

 

There is also a certain point where, especially for superheroes I say, "the setting isn't realistic, the character is special, 'realism' doesn't apply". Yes, you or I need months to learn a new science skill. A Reed Richards type character is so far beyond us in intelligence that he could grasp the basics of a science skill he doesn't have(if there are any) in a few hours, easily. That's what having a 350 or 400 IQ will do for you. And what do you do for, Impulse who can read a book in seconds and has a near photographic memory? Ok, maybe he can't APPLY all the knowledge, but he can pick up any "academic" KS he wants in minutes by hitting a university library and reading every book they have on the subject in a minute or so.

[Mike W]

Re: Experience increasing

 

What about those of us who aren't already a good GM' date=' though? We need a better solution than merely being told to "Just go out and do it!", i.e., a system or rule of some kind. If there are just one or two areas in which we aren't a good GM, we should be able to find some sort of help on how to fix that. It's the rare GM who starts out perfect [/quote']

 

Most systems have a chapter on awarding XP and maintaining power levels. I suggest you READ IT.

[Robyn]

Re: Experience increasing

 

practice' date=' practice, practice.[/quote']

 

The players shouldn't have to suffer through our learning process, though. It's one thing to refine around the rough edges, another to be forced to learn from scratch.

 

Most systems have a chapter on awarding XP and maintaining power levels. I suggest you READ IT.

 

I don't personally have a problem with XP or power levels, I manage both of those just fine in my game. In principle, though, for any "GM advice" someone may need, it's important that such advice be available. The guidelines in most books are meant to be useful for the "broad majority" of GM's. For any of those sets of advice, there will always be a few GM's for whom it isn't enough, and this is cumulative per type of advice. In the end, you have a lot of GM's who need more help than is available in their core sourcebook, and for those GM's, I believe they have the right to look for such information, and receive it where some of us are willing to provide it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Experience increasing

 

The players shouldn't have to suffer through our learning process' date=' though. It's one thing to refine around the rough edges, another to be forced to learn from scratch.[/quote']

If the players are "suffering" one might wish to look for a new group. Good players will recognize a novice GM and work to help make the experience on both sides of the table enjoyable and fair. RPing is a cooperative effort - not a GM vs Player situation.

 

Which is why I disagree utterly and completely with your "The players don't/shouldn't have to know the system being played" statements. If the players DO know they can help shape the Game and the World.

 

Easing both the burden of the novice GM and expaditing the learning experience of the GM to a more seasoned one.

[Robyn]

Re: Experience increasing

 

If the players are "suffering" one might wish to look for a new group. Good players will recognize a novice GM

 

Not all new players are blessed with an experienced GM, the same goes for GM's. Just because everyone at the table is new to gaming, doesn't mean they should split up and find mentors to ease their acclimation to the hobby.

 

Which is why I disagree utterly and completely with your "The players don't/shouldn't have to know the system being played" statements.

 

There are other reasons for the players not knowing the system, though, and far more than just under this circumstances

[ghost-angel]

Re: Experience increasing

 

Not all new players are blessed with an experienced GM, the same goes for GM's. Just because everyone at the table is new to gaming, doesn't mean they should split up and find mentors to ease their acclimation to the hobby.

 

There are other reasons for the players not knowing the system, though, and far more than just under this circumstances

having a bit of difficulty or overcoming a learning curve are one thing - "Suffering" is an entirely different thing. If someone is "suffering" then moving on may be best, if someone is just having growing pains but still having some fun that's another.

 

And many of those other reasons are good reasons to learn the system. Novice player and/or GM can make the perfect opportunity to learn in a mutually friendly and understanding environment.

 

Why remain in ignorance...

[Robyn]

Re: Experience increasing

 

having a bit of difficulty or overcoming a learning curve are one thing - "Suffering" is an entirely different thing. If someone is "suffering" then moving on may be best' date=' if someone is just having growing pains but still having some fun that's another.[/quote']

 

A bad choice of words, then. The degree of "suffering" may be so minor as to only qualify as an "inconvenience", but, regardless, if the game could be better (given instructions), and those instructions are not commonly available but are out there, both players and GM's have the right to seek it out instead of working out their own solutions (which may take forever).

 

Instant gratification may be frowned upon, but that's no reason to overcompensate in the other direction. If a GM (or player) is humble enough to admit that they don't know how to do something, they shouldn't be told "figure it out the hard way" unless there isn't an easier way.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Experience increasing

 

I guess I just don't see learning by experience as being "the hard way"

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Experience increasing

 

...

 

WTF are you two talking about?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Experience increasing

 

...

 

WTF are you two talking about?

The philosophy of learning to GM or learning to play (though it started with learning to GM).

 

Robyn basically believes that a novice GM needs guidelines to learn better lest their game suffer than actually going out and trying different things to see what they like and don't like - complete with mistakes.

 

I'm approaching from a Zen angle - the journey is more important than the destination.

Robyn is approaching from a "Get to the part where I know what I'm doing" angle, where the destination is the important part.

 

the destination being a "good" or at least knowledgeable GM.

[Robyn]

Re: Experience increasing

 

The philosophy of learning to GM or learning to play (though it started with learning to GM).

 

Robyn basically believes that a novice GM needs guidelines to learn better lest their game suffer than

 

This is not fully correct. I never said I believe that a novice GM needs guidelines, indeed I acknowledged that most GM's are content to use or throw out what is found in their core sourcebook. My point is that the few GM's who do want such things, have the right to look for them without being told they would be better off to "just make do" without.

 

actually going out and trying different things to see what they like and don't like - complete with mistakes.

 

It helps with this if we actually have different things to try; if we're having trouble thinking of how to handle something, why take months experimenting with each as we come up with another when we can just study a bunch of predefined systems, pick the ones we (all) like best, and play around with those to find out which work for us, before finally developing a variation (if any is needed) that suits us?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Experience increasing

 

Right, that's about what I thought I read. Two of you making totally separate but valid, and on the surface, non-contradictory points. This would be why I'm confused.

[Jaxom]

Re: Experience increasing

 

I never said I believe that a novice GM needs guidelines' date=' indeed I acknowledged that [i']most[/i] GM's are content to use or throw out what is found in their core sourcebook. My point is that the few GM's who do want such things, have the right to look for them without being told they would be better off to "just make do" without.

 

It helps with this if we actually have different things to try; if we're having trouble thinking of how to handle something, why take months experimenting with each as we come up with another when we can just study a bunch of predefined systems, pick the ones we (all) like best, and play around with those to find out which work for us, before finally developing a variation (if any is needed) that suits us?

 

The best resource I ever saw for something like this is Robyn's Laws of Good Gamemastering, by Robyn D. Law. It was written generally and was not intended to be limited to any single system.

 

The question here (and certainly what I heard in Robyn's first post on this subject) is that there should be rules in the system for how to handle this. I don't know if that was what was intended but that was certainly the impression I got from the post. I'm all for giving advice and today there are millions of good ways to get that advice, whether you hunt down a copy of Robyn's Laws or you go hit a half-dozen forums.

 

The problem is (and Robyn's Laws sum this up far better than I will) that if you write rules into the system for how to make one gaming group happy then at least 50% of the rest will be unhappy. There is advice in most sourcebooks and sometimes it is better than others. No arguments. But rather than trying to make rules to control advancement, it is far better if the GM is pointed to resources like these forums, Robyn's Laws, the local gaming club, conventions where people give seminars on good gamemastering and other places to discuss things like this.

 

My first response to this thread was quite specifically to ask what the goal of the rule would be. I know that the folks that I play and run with have a wide variety of tastes. Some like rapid advancement. Some crawl out into corners. Some build jack-of-all-trades characters who are incredibly well rounded. I would never use the system proposed because simply put it penalizes anyone who desires a one-trick-pony and that would make the campaign no fun for 2 of our 8 players. I also pointed out that if you decide on a house rule like this and then start handing out more and more experience to appease a player who *wants* to be able to corner then your more balanced characters are going to advance far faster than you expect.

 

These are questions I know to ask because I have had experience. There are plenty of people on these forums who have been gaming for 20 years or more (I personally know of at least 5). Make use of the experience around here when you have questions like this.

[Mike W]

Re: Experience increasing

 

The players shouldn't have to suffer through our learning process, though. It's one thing to refine around the rough edges, another to be forced to learn from scratch.

 

 

 

I don't personally have a problem with XP or power levels, I manage both of those just fine in my game. In principle, though, for any "GM advice" someone may need, it's important that such advice be available. The guidelines in most books are meant to be useful for the "broad majority" of GM's. For any of those sets of advice, there will always be a few GM's for whom it isn't enough, and this is cumulative per type of advice. In the end, you have a lot of GM's who need more help than is available in their core sourcebook, and for those GM's, I believe they have the right to look for such information, and receive it where some of us are willing to provide it.

 

Note that my previous post wasn't aimed at you per se.

 

I think the biggest thing with maintaining power levels is experience(for the GM). I've never GM'ed a game system that I haven't played a lot first(except TOON where most such concerns are irrelevant). If you play a system a lot, you get a feel for it and get a feel for what does(and doesn't) work. There are certain things I don't do because I saw other GM's fail miserably trying them.

[Mike W]

Re: Experience increasing

 

If the players are "suffering" one might wish to look for a new group. Good players will recognize a novice GM and work to help make the experience on both sides of the table enjoyable and fair. RPing is a cooperative effort - not a GM vs Player situation.

 

Which is why I disagree utterly and completely with your "The players don't/shouldn't have to know the system being played" statements. If the players DO know they can help shape the Game and the World.

 

Easing both the burden of the novice GM and expaditing the learning experience of the GM to a more seasoned one.

 

Agreed, anyone who sits down at my table has to know system basics before they are allowed to play. I'm perfectly willing to teach them, but I don't want to have to explain to them what to roll every time they have to pick up a die.

 

Sometimes as players, you learn on the fly. If the group gets a new game, SOMEONE has to GM first. While it usually helps to GM games you've played before(this is my normal policy - only GM games I've played a lot), sometimes a group takes a shot at a new game. It's much easier to sort things out if EVERYONE is trying to learn the system rather than one person learn everything and try to teach the others, especially when it comes to power levels and abstract concepts like that. This has always been one of my biggest problems with HERO, especially 4th edition. The published characters were often built poorly, particularly in relation to each other. Often you had characters of wildly different power levels on the same team. Many expensive characters were practically non-combatants. Lots of "uber-characters" and killing attacks, but resistant defenses were comparatively rare. At least half the characters in the CU can't be put on the field with a majority of the published characters.(Again, pertains more to 4th, I haven't picked up many of the 5th edition villain books).

[Robyn]

Re: Experience increasing

 

The best resource I ever saw for something like this is Robyn's Laws of Good Gamemastering' date=' by Robyn D. Law. It was written generally and was not intended to be limited to any single system.[/quote']

 

I bought it; I think Steve Jackson Games was publishing it at the time.

 

The question here (and certainly what I heard in Robyn's first post on this subject) is that there should be rules in the system for how to handle this. I don't know if that was what was intended but that was certainly the impression I got from the post.

 

Not in the core sourcebook, no. If people have problems with what's there, then they can go seeking a solution elsewhere, from those of us who have rules and are willing to share them - and that's where a great disservice can be done by telling them "work it out on your own, anything else will get you less than the best".

 

There are plenty of people on these forums who have been gaming for 20 years or more (I personally know of at least 5). Make use of the experience around here when you have questions like this.

 

Agreed, and that's almost exactly my point: that we should be able to tap into that experience, and that it can improve our games faster than working through everything on our own.

 

Palladium also had The Rifter, a magazine with player and GM submissions. I think Digital HERO might have the same thing, but I don't have a subscription yet, so I don't know. One of those places might be good for looking into "how to balance XP".

[Robyn]

Re: Experience increasing

 

Note that my previous post wasn't aimed at you per se.

 

I knew. I was just trying to offer an alternate perspective

[Dust Raven]

Re: Experience increasing

 

Most systems have a chapter on awarding XP and maintaining power levels. I suggest you READ IT.

 

That chapter works best of EVERYONE in the game reads it, or as a group chooses to disregard it. It's hardly the GMs' sole responsibility.

[Robyn]

Re: Experience increasing

 

That chapter works best of EVERYONE in the game reads it' date=' or as a group chooses to disregard it. It's hardly the GMs' sole responsibility.[/quote']

 

On the flip side (to keep on presenting alternate perspectives), our Palladium GM let us know to not peek at the XP section when reading through the book. I can see where that secrecy could be coming from; as GM, you want the players to roleplay their characters, not choose actions based on what would get them XP.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Experience increasing

 

Well' date=' I wouldn't want to be unrealistic. I guess instead of spending points to raise my STR, improve my Riding skill or learn the Security System skill, I'll buy a magic spell that enables me to fly. Yes, that's much more realistic [/quote']

It is more realistic if it abides by internal logic. If you are playing in a fantasy world and the wizard character has been travelling with another wizard, they could certainly pick up spells from one another. But if the two of them have been walking through the jungle together for a month, it's hard to justify Security Systems.

 

I don't know as I would go that far. I mean' date=' a character who spends a lot of time flying and fighting is constantly using his DEX in difficult, high stress situations that are as good or better for sharpening reflexes as any obstacle course could ever be. [/quote']

I just assume that the character has been doing adventurous stuff all his life and his stats represent his peak physical and mental condition. I didn't say I never allow improvement, just that there has to be time and rationale for it.

 

If a person has been fighting a lot, they should probably buy fighting skills rather than upping DEX and STR. It might be more cost effective to increase the stats, but if someone starts the game with a STR of 13, it's hard to imagine them bulking up to 23.

 

Keith "But to each their own" Curtis

[ghost-angel]

Re: Experience increasing

 

On the flip side (to keep on presenting alternate perspectives)' date=' our Palladium GM let us know to [i']not[/i] peek at the XP section when reading through the book. I can see where that secrecy could be coming from; as GM, you want the players to roleplay their characters, not choose actions based on what would get them XP.

see, I hate that mentality.

 

I think it just makes for a bad GM/Player relationship.

 

It sets a presedence of "The GM expects you to munchkin and power your way around if you know the rules/system/expectations."

 

I explicitely WANT the GM to let me know the expectations of the game from both his and my perspective. Only good Roleplaying should garner you experience anyways, so the whole "Don't look at the list of suggestions, you'll get ideas little player" thing just makes me ill.

 

Thay said - if it works for you game on.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Experience increasing

 

I can think of two very valid reasons to keep players ignorant of the system for as long as possible: 1.) Power Gamers (A.K.A. the infamous, "munchkin"), and 2.) Rules Lawyers.

 

There is also the minor desire of the GM to keep some mystery involved for those of us who lack the imagination to do so with story instead of mechanics (I probably fall into that category at times, but I'd still rather have my players know the system as well as possible).