Shrinking/Growth question

[Dust Raven]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

Erm.... that's what you're doing when you create a power/effect; Modeling the SFX you want.

 

 

that's the POINT of power construction.

 

To be slightly more accurate, you are modeling the effect you want, special or not.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

2) Another way to keep your DCV levels is to have Danger Sense, the SFX of which could simply be that since everything is bigger to you it's easier to notice. Probably too costly for the effect being modeled.

 

Too costly, and doesn't do a damn bit of good when Captain Birdseed is unconscious.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

To be slightly more accurate' date=' you are modeling the [i']effect[/i] you want, special or not.

 

Here at Hero System Middle School, we believe every effect is special...

[Bloodstone]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

Too costly' date=' and doesn't do a damn bit of good when Captain Birdseed is unconscious.[/quote']

 

Hate to derail, but why wouldn't Danger Sense work when you are unconscious?

 

It can be bought to the Sense level, and that is, after all, why Defense Maneuver IV is considered "persistant".

 

If Danger Sense doesn't work, I see no reason why Defense Maneuver IV would work under similar conditions.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

Hate to derail, but why wouldn't Danger Sense work when you are unconscious?

 

It can be bought to the Sense level, and that is, after all, why Defense Maneuver IV is considered "persistant".

 

If Danger Sense doesn't work, I see no reason why Defense Maneuver IV would work under similar conditions.

 

Danger Sense wouldn't work at all of the character were at less than -10 STUN, because he is unable to use any senses at all. Also, even at 0 to -10, an unconscious character's DCV is always 0.

 

Defense Maneuver IV specifically says that all DCV levels are Persistant.

 

Now, it could be argued that unconscious is inconscious, and 0 DCV is 0 DCV, so even if DCV levels were Persistant, an unconscious character's DCV who has Persistant DCV levels would still have a DCV of 0. As far as I'm converned, that's 100% correct. In the case of characters that have bought DCV levels to represent a smaller size, those DCV levels should apply no matter what, even while unconscious. A small target is a small target after all. I don't like the idea of using Defense Maneuver IV to model this though, even if DF is limited. It seems kludgy to me... but it works. Kinda. The main problem with it are those characters that have DCV levels that aren't representing a small size, but reflexes or something, not getting their DCV levels while unconscious just because of SFX.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

I agree 100% that size based DCV should allways apply to attackers that are larger than the opponent. Dare I say it, but D20 actully does this rather well

 

However, just for the record:

 

Q: How does Defense Maneuver IV affect Combat Skill Levels that can be applied to DCV?

 

A: As the text of the Skill says, it makes CSLs which can improve DCV Persistent for that purpose. Like any other Persistent Power, the character can still turn it off if he wants to, as he’d have to if he wanted to assign the Levels to OCV or anything else other than DCV. If the CSLs are already assigned to OCV or something other than DCV, they do not, under any circumstances, also apply to the character’s DCV, because they’ve been assigned elsewhere. And of course no CSLs are going to apply when a character is asleep, unconscious, or the like.

 

So nither Defense Maneuver or Danger Sense would work in the uncounscious scenario.

 

Course, I would probably handwaive it due to SFX anyhow. Not like any of the offical writeups for small creatures have either of those abilites...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

So nither Defense Maneuver or Danger Sense would work in the uncounscious scenario.

 

Course, I would probably handwaive it due to SFX anyhow. Not like any of the offical writeups for small creatures have either of those abilites...

Well, that clinches it... Hero System is lacking in defining the size of the character.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

Common & Dramatic Sense?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

Common & Dramatic Sense?

 

On the one hand, this is the easy answer. A baseball is never conscious, but no one argues it has a 0 DCV because "you can't use DCV bonuses if you're not conscious".

 

On the other hand, is it fair to allow a significant DCV bonus to a character while "at 0 DCV" which would be denied to other characters who paid the same points for the same ability, but have a different special effect? This will be campaign-specific, of course, but it's a pretty sound tactical decision to strike at a reduced-DCV target, especially if he's tough to hit at full DCV, in the hopes of taking him out of the fight. A small AoE Entangle, followed by a couple of solid, co-ordinated hits against the full-sized Speedster or Martial Artist generally take him out of the fight. A similar effect occurs if that character is Stunned. Is it fair that MiniMan gets to keep his DCV bonuses, paid for in the same way, with no increase in point cost, under those circumstances?

 

It seems OK for DCV bonuses granted by Shrinking, as these can simply be redefined as a penalty to the opponent's OCV, rather than a bonus to the character's DCV. However, there's no simple, elegant means to buy that same OCV penalty for a character who is permanently and normally of a smaller size than human norm. This is, in my opinion, a strike against the 5e prohibition against using size change powers, made permanent, to model characters larger or smaller than the baseline.

 

BTW, who said 100 kg/1 hex tall MUST be the baseline. You could just as easily run a Bugs campaign where the norm is 1" tall, and any deviation is purchased as growth or shrinking from that baseline.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

BTW' date=' who said 100 kg/1 hex tall MUST be the baseline. You could just as easily run a Bugs campaign where the norm is 1" tall, and any deviation is purchased as growth or shrinking from that baseline.[/quote']

And that is why, IMO, that I'm happy that there is no size stat.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

All base characteristics start at 10 and we assume everyone is essentially humanoid. Deviating from the baseline is what costs points and alters basic abilites.

 

If everyone is a certain size, then you can easily say "you all get x amount of size for free."

 

By contrast, if the game consist of two brownies, two dykini warriros and a peck with an acorn, you just have to figure out what the baseline is and go from there. Most games would assume human size is base and that everyone else is smaller, but you could just as easily say brownie is base and make eveyone else purchase increased levels of size.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

I agree 100% that size based DCV should allways apply to attackers that are larger than the opponent. Dare I say it' date=' but D20 actully does this rather well [/quote']

Except that D&D also grants small chatracters an attack bonus and its effects on damage would be totally inappropriate in Hero. We could do size (and its relation to range) better, but comparing it to D&D is still laughable.

[schir1964]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

I created an alternate method for handling size in Hero. Anyone who is interested can email me at schir1964 @ netzero.com and I will email the document to you.

 

It doesn't solve all the problems but it will give a comparision chart that might be useful for designing a more thoroughly fleshed out system.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Bloodstone]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

Except that D&D also grants small chatracters an attack bonus and its effects on damage would be totally inappropriate in Hero. We could do size (and its relation to range) better' date=' but comparing it to D&D is still laughable. [/quote']

 

 

Hero grants smaller foes a "bonus" to attack already, by reducing larger opponents DCV. The problem is, it doesn't scale right. This is, however, addressed somewhat in the Ultimate Metamorph.

 

Two people, each 2m tall, gain no bonuses to attack easch other.

 

You shrink one of them to 2cm tall while leaving the other one normal sized. The 2m fellow has a much harder time hitting his smaller oppoenent (smaller one has a DCV bonus), but the inverse is not true. The 2m person is litterally 100 times the size of the 2cm person and yet he's functional not any easier to hit then he was before.

 

You return the shrunk character to normal size.

 

Now you decide to grow the other one to 200m in height. Suddenly, he's much easier to hit (he takes a DCV penalty)! Why? Well, he's easier to hit because he's 100 times bugger then his opponent of course...

 

But wait... Wasn't he 100 times bigger before? Yes he was and system wise, he wasn't any easier to hit, was he? No!

 

And that makes no sense at all.

 

Now lets say you shrink the other guy back down to 2cm. He is now 1/10000 of the size that the 200m guy is. Shouldn't a target 10000 times your size be much easier to hit then one that in only 100 times your size? Shouldn't a target that is 1/10000 your size be much harder to hit then one that is only 1/100 your size?

 

Ok, lets change it up a bit. Lets say you grow both characters to 200m. They are now exactly the same size. And guess what? They both take an equal penalty to DCV. Since their OCV doesn't change proportionatly, they now can hit each other with every blow! This makes no sense. They might be 100 times larger then their normal size, but they are BOTH 100 times larger. Nither of them presents a bigger target to the opponent, so something should cancel out the DCV penalty. But there isn't anything to do so... except common and dramatic sesne

 

Similarly, you could Shrink them both to 2cm tall. This gives them both a DCV bonus for being smaller then normal. But relative to each other, they are still the same size as one another. There should be no bonus since nither of them is actully a smaller target. But there is so this is one big wiff fest since they lack the OCV to hit each other.

 

Hopefully I explained that properly. I just woke up...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

I'm starting a new thread specifically to discuss a solution (or just complain about the problem futher) to the DCV and size issue. I figure a new thread is appropriate.

[garou]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

Wow. I was just asking for advice as a GM who is still fairly new to the Hero system. I didn't realise I was going to open such a can of worms.

 

BTW, thanks for the help everyone.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

For the record, my appologies for derailing. We should have started a new thread a page or two back...