Shrinking/Growth question

[garou]

Okay, I have a character in a Teen Champions game who wants to have, as a default state, a permanent height of 1" (real inches, ie 2.54 cm, not hexes), who can then grow back up to normal size.

 

Persumably, this is accomplished by taking Shrinking to the appropriate level, then adding Persistent, 0 End, and Always On*. How many levels of Growth, therefore, would be needed to get back to normal size?

 

 

* (Ignoring, for a moment, that 4 levels of Shrinking is beyond the campaign's initial limits of 60 AP, or that a Phys Lim and stat changes are another way to handle a default reduced state.)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

The official story is that Shrinking isn't used for this at all; instead you buy DCV Levels, maybe a Disadvantage or two, Skill Levels with Stealth, etc., and simply define the character as being 2.5 cm tall. I'd say it would then take

round( 3 * log2( 2 m / 2.5 cm ) ) = 13

levels of Growth to get from 2.5 cm to 2 m tall, with all the usual benefits of Growth.

 

If you want to go the nonstandard method of using Shrinking, I would say you apply Persistent, but not Always On. If you really want it to have Always On, rather than handling the reversing of the size with Growth (and to make it more portable), I would take a buy-off of the Always On Limitation (the number of Real Points difference between the construct with and without Always On) and apply Limitations such as Costs End, Increased End Cost, Concentrate, or whatever to it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

Yes, the official method of creating a character that is always (or normally) really small or large is by buying the logically associated Powers/Characteristics and Disads that model the effects of being that size. In the case of a character only 3cm tall, you'd buy them lots of DCV levels (hopefully bought persistant, so they apply out of combat and while the character is unconscious), and a funky version of Change Enviornment/Images to produce the character's size penalty for PER rolls to perceive him. Then you just buy enough Growth to make them "normal" sized. I'd recomend buying the character's STR into the negative so that the final STR isn't disporportionately huge when human size, unless that is your intent.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

WARNING: HERESY IN PROGRESS

 

Okay, I have a character in a Teen Champions game who wants to have, as a default state, a permanent height of 1" (real inches, ie 2.54 cm, not hexes), who can then grow back up to normal size.

 

Persumably, this is accomplished by taking Shrinking to the appropriate level, then adding Persistent, 0 End, and Always On*. How many levels of Growth, therefore, would be needed to get back to normal size?

 

I don't see a problem with consideringv this character to actually have shrinking. Perhaps, in time, the character can learn to better control this power of size fluctuation, and choose their "default state" at any given point in time. For this reason, I would use the heretical "buy a normal state smaller than human using Shrinking" approach. That should be about 6 levels of Shrinking (beyond your AP cap, but I'd allow it given its impact). So that costs 120 AP, 80 RP after Always On.

 

This means that Always On saved 40 points, and should be "bought off" at the cost of 40 points. I assume there is some cost or limit on the character's ability to become normal size, or he would just buy the Persistent shrinking and be done with it. So, perhaps it costs END to maintain normal size. In that case, I would allow the player to buy "Grow to Normal Size - Buy off Always On (40 AP), costs END (-1/2) Real Cost 27" Apply any other limitations similarly and you're good to go.

 

I suppose one could also use a Multiform where the normal state buys the stats of a 1" tall human, and the alternate form is a normal-size human. That seems like overkill in this case, unless there are other differences of substance.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

I'm with Hugh.... I might add inherent to the mix, as well, since you shouldn't be able to remove his shrinking ability.

 

I never liked the ruling that you're not supposed to use growth and shrinking for permanent size changes... there's no good way to do either of them with the rules as they stand. Bonus to stealth for being small? Well, sure, but really it should be a negative to everyone else's perception roll... which is what the shrinking power does.

 

-Nate

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

Yes' date=' the official method of creating a character that is always (or normally) really small or large is by buying the logically associated Powers/Characteristics and Disads that model the effects of being that size. In the case of a character only 3cm tall, you'd buy them lots of DCV levels (hopefully bought persistant, so they apply out of combat and while the character is unconscious), and a funky version of Change Enviornment/Images to produce the character's size penalty for PER rolls to perceive him. Then you just buy enough Growth to make them "normal" sized. I'd recomend buying the character's STR into the negative so that the final STR isn't disporportionately huge when human size, unless that is your intent.[/quote']

You don't need the Change Environment.

 

you should also take Physical Limitation: Miniscule +4" of Knockback (I think that's right, not near the size tables).

 

And since when do Skill Levels not apply outside of Combat?

[Ndreare]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

He would have the following. (Pricy)

 

60: Small Dude

1) 24: +12 Stealth

2) 60: +12 with DCV

3) -24: Knockback Resistance +12"

 

Unfortunatly if you are useing Hero Designer any version you cannot make him this way as they do not allow powers at negative levels.

 

An interesting note is if the character is built this way and buys growth he will still have a +4 stealth after growing to normal size.

 

60 Growth (+60 STR, +12 BODY, +12 STUN, -12" KB, 100 kg, -8 DCV, +8 PER Rolls to perceive character, 32 m tall, 16 m wide) 6

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

He would have the following. (Pricy)

 

60: Small Dude

1) 24: +12 Stealth

2) 60: +12 with DCV

3) -24: Knockback Resistance +12"

 

Unfortunatly if you are useing Hero Designer any version you cannot make him this way as they do not allow powers at negative levels.

 

An interesting note is if the character is built this way and buys growth he will still have a +4 stealth after growing to normal size.

 

60 Growth (+60 STR, +12 BODY, +12 STUN, -12" KB, 100 kg, -8 DCV, +8 PER Rolls to perceive character, 32 m tall, 16 m wide) 6

You mean +12" of Knockback not "KB Resistance" and that is bought as a Physical Limitation, not a Power.

[Ndreare]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

You mean +12" of Knockback not "KB Resistance" and that is bought as a Physical Limitation' date=' not a Power.[/quote']

Nope I typed it the way I wanted it. If you buy it normaly you would buy a -12" KB and since I wanted it this way I baught it as +12.

 

I think buying it a a physical limitation seems just a little off from logical on how it should be built. It falls in the same area as selling down STR. I would not by a Phys Lim STR is really -50. Instead I would sell of my STR to -50.

 

But then again I am not the GM of that game so I do not know what he will do.

 

(If I have to pay 24 points for +12 KB why should I only get 15 points for -12 KB?)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

Nope I typed it the way I wanted it. If you buy it normaly you would buy a -12" KB and since I wanted it this way I baught it as +12.

 

I think buying it a a physical limitation seems just a little off from logical on how it should be built. It falls in the same area as selling down STR. I would not by a Phys Lim STR is really -50. Instead I would sell of my STR to -50.

 

But then again I am not the GM of that game so I do not know what he will do.

 

(If I have to pay 24 points for +12 KB why should I only get 15 points for -12 KB?)

Change whatever you need for your game.

 

The Official System method is to buy a Physical Limitation because you cannot have negative stats/abilities with the sole exception of STR.

 

On another note I blieve that level of size is 20pts.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

Personally I think inherent shrinking is the way to go, which is unfortunately kinda expensive, but then again, I also think shrinking is way overpriced.

 

-Nate

[Dust Raven]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

You don't need the Change Environment.

 

you should also take Physical Limitation: Miniscule +4" of Knockback (I think that's right, not near the size tables).

I disagree, but only on the basis of how the rules concerning size are written. Also, I've never liked the idea of Disads granting bonusus.

 

Honestly though, I really wish there was an easier way to manage the whole thing. Without a characteristic and game mechanic for mass and size, anything we do to model it is just guesswork and slapdash number crunching. The best we have are three Powers that are designed to model a change in size/mass, but nothing that determines a characters baseline (it's just assumed that all characters are 1 hex tall weighing 100kg, without exception).

 

And since when do Skill Levels not apply outside of Combat?

Since forever. If they are not Persistant, they have to be consciously turned on and maintained, like a Force Field.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

Since forever. If they are not Persistant' date=' they have to be consciously turned on and maintained, like a Force Field.[/quote']

Hum. you're right.

 

It also states you can not make DCV levels persistent, you should buy Defensive Maneuver.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

Hum. you're right.

 

It also states you can not make DCV levels persistent, you should buy Defensive Maneuver.

 

Which is actually a really good method. If you have 2 or more DCV levels, it's cheaper to just buy Defense Maneuver, and you get the bonuses of having Defense Maneuver on top of it.

 

The only problem with that method are for concepts where you want a character with persistant DCV levels, but can still be taken advantage of by multiple attackers. I wonder how much of a Limitation it would be for Defense Maneuver IV to only make DCV levels persistant... -1/2, -1?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

Well..

DefMan 1 = 2pts

DefMan 2 = 3pts

DefMan 3 = 3pts

DefMan 4 = 2pts...

 

If you don't want 3 to be in effect, you're losing about 1/3 of the Power, so a -1/2 seems to work.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

I disagree' date=' but only on the basis of how the rules concerning size are written. Also, I've never liked the idea of Disads granting bonusus.[/quote']

 

The Size disads don't give bonuses. You pay for things that are bonuses, then the Phys Lim provides the downsides.

 

So, for a 3' tall character, you would pay points for a bonus to Concealment, DCV levels, Stealth, and buy back your Presence, STR, Running, and take a Phys Lim for taking extra knockback and not being able to reach the top shelf.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

The Size disads don't give bonuses. You pay for things that are bonuses, then the Phys Lim provides the downsides.

 

So, for a 3' tall character, you would pay points for a bonus to Concealment, DCV levels, Stealth, and buy back your Presence, STR, Running, and take a Phys Lim for taking extra knockback and not being able to reach the top shelf.

Exactly.

 

Proper modeling of SFX. Size is just another type of SFX that needs to be modeled within the system.

[Robyn]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

Proper modeling of SFX. Size is just another type of SFX that needs to be modeled within the system.

 

We need to model SFX now too?

[garou]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

Well..

DefMan 1 = 2pts

DefMan 2 = 3pts

DefMan 3 = 3pts

DefMan 4 = 2pts...

 

If you don't want 3 to be in effect, you're losing about 1/3 of the Power, so a -1/2 seems to work.

DefMan? Isn't he the guy who promotes awareness of Def?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

We need to model SFX now too?

Erm.... that's what you're doing when you create a power/effect; Modeling the SFX you want.

 

 

that's the POINT of power construction.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

DefMan? Isn't he the guy who promotes awareness of Def?

Defense Maneuver Skill.

[Robyn]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

Erm.... that's what you're doing when you create a power/effect; Modeling the SFX you want.

 

Oh . . . okay. Whew. For a moment there I was getting all confused. Distracting week

[Robyn]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

But, just because I can:

 

Size is just another type of SFX that needs to be modeled within the system.

 

Freeze Flesh: RKA 1d6, AVLD (Power Defense; +1 1/2), Does BODY (+1) (52 Active Points); Only Versus Targets With Normal Organic Body Chemistry (-1/2). Total cost: 35 points.

 

Images, sight group: blue line from hero's body to target, Linked to: Images, sound group: neeming sound, Linked to: Images, thermal group: feels cold.

 

I'm in a hurry and probably missing some things. But it seems like an interesting exercise

[Bloodstone]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

1) I think the current system of using skills, powers and disadvantages to reflect size is overly complex and confusing. Characters need to have a Size/Mass characterisitc just liek Vehicles and Bases. It would make things MUCH easier. Grwoth, Shrinking and DI would probably have to be reworked as adjustment powers though

 

2) Another way to keep your DCV levels is to have Danger Sense, the SFX of which could simply be that since everything is bigger to you it's easier to notice. Probably too costly for the effect being modeled.

 

3) As to the initial character, IMO the easiest way to build this character would be to make a normal sized character with Shrinking (0 END, Pesistant) possibly with a Trigger that activates the power if he is Knocked out. The end result is the character Grows by simply turing his Shrinking off. If he needs enhanced attributes for being larger (like extra STR or Running), you could slap OIHID on those abilites.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Shrinking/Growth question

 

The Size disads don't give bonuses. You pay for things that are bonuses' date=' then the Phys Lim provides the downsides.[/quote']

 

But those bonuses only apply when a character is actually trying to conceal himself, or move silently. What if he's just standing on the other side of a crowded room? A guy half the height of everyone else is going to be harder to spot, even if he's jumping up and down waving his arms.

 

I suppose you could make the PER penalty a SFX issue, as it could be as much of a disadvantage as it would be an advantage... I still think there should be an easier way of handling size in the Hero System though.