1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

[Thia Halmades]

Okay, so we're working on powers and such, and I mention to the assembed that I've seen the variant for 25 points; it's either done as "1d6 1/2" which is book standard, or "2d6-1" in some cases. Which seems odd to me!

 

I know, mechanically, on the surface, that at 30 we're at 2d6 for RKAs. Simple. I know that every five points is a guaranteed pip of damage - for example, those same 6 DCs could buy me '6 damage' on every attack. I've also built it at "1d6+3" because I like to change things up a bit. But the 2d6-1 seems to be a bit of anomaly.

 

Accepting that 2d6 is 6 DCs, and 1 pip is 1 DC, the reasoning (I assume) is that 6 DC (2d6) - 1 DC (1) = 2d6-1. Which isn't the same as 1d6 1/2; it's 2 to 9 damage (5 avg.) vs. 1-11 (roughly 6 average, assuming a roll of 7-1). Same DCs, but up a pip. Do you allow this in your games? How do you rule it? Do you go by the book, exactly, or allow for variations such as "1d6+3" and "2d6-1." I'm curious to hear what all y'all have to say about it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

Okay, so we're working on powers and such, and I mention to the assembed that I've seen the variant for 25 points; it's either done as "1d6 1/2" which is book standard, or "2d6-1" in some cases. Which seems odd to me!

 

I know, mechanically, on the surface, that at 30 we're at 2d6 for RKAs. Simple. I know that every five points is a guaranteed pip of damage - for example, those same 6 DCs could buy me '6 damage' on every attack. I've also built it at "1d6+3" because I like to change things up a bit. But the 2d6-1 seems to be a bit of anomaly.

Well, no, that's not the way it works. You can't actually by a separate +1 pip, +1 pip is just the next level of damage after a solid d6. The only +1s you'll ever see in published material is in DCs of 20, 35, 50, etc.

 

Unless you are refering to Standard Effect, then I guess it does work that way.

 

Accepting that 2d6 is 6 DCs, and 1 pip is 1 DC, the reasoning (I assume) is that 6 DC (2d6) - 1 DC (1) = 2d6-1. Which isn't the same as 1d6 1/2; it's 2 to 9 damage (5 avg.) vs. 1-11 (roughly 6 average, assuming a roll of 7-1). Same DCs, but up a pip. Do you allow this in your games? How do you rule it? Do you go by the book, exactly, or allow for variations such as "1d6+3" and "2d6-1." I'm curious to hear what all y'all have to say about it.

 

There is a significent difference between the 1/2 and -1, especially at high level DCs. For the purpose of play, either one is still better than a +1, and worse than a whole extra die, so it's really up to the player and GM as to which to use. Some like using the 1/2 die because it seems unfair to use the -1, while others use the -1 because it's easier to roll than a 1/2 die. So it's up to you which you like and the the GM will allow.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

As the GM, I was wondering how best to handle it. I was referring to the SER effect of 1 DC = 1 pip, you were correct. So you can wander down that logical train and get to "1d6+3" and it's perfectly reasonable and legal. Sorry, just thinking outside the box again, since seeing the same numbers over and over gets old in my mind; I like to mix things up.

 

One of my players - the Paladin in the campaign, as opposed to the Paladin NPC who is my namesake - wanted to build a 'forward arc AOE.' Which proved rather tricky, because he wanted to effectively hit the 8 hexes directly in front of him across about a 180o sweep. The three hexes ahead, and the five hexes right behind it.

 

He couldn't buy his full 2d6 damage, plus the +1 1/2 advantage for "Any AOE" required to hit that exact zone, so I knocked him down to 1d6 1/2 (or 25 points of HKA) and then handwaved it UP to 2d6-1, because it was appropriate to the SFX of the power in that case. Although, generally, I'll default to 1d6 1/2. I was curious about other folks applying the rule/option, and if they had.

[Dust Raven]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

If you're the GM, use whatever you like, this is appropriate, think the player will use nicely, etc. Remember, according to the system, +2, 1/2 and 1d6-1 are all the same value, even though they have massively different actual results.

 

Oddly enough, if you apply SE in HDv2, you don't get these results, so I might be wrong about that. According to HD, +1, 1/2 and 1d6-1 all only added 1 BODY to the Standard Effect, where the 1/2 and 1d6-1 should have added two.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

I do all calculations in DCs, and then as a last step before rolling figure the damage dice. I always use 1/2d6 instead of d6-1, because I like the consistency. Some weapons in the charts still use d6-1, think, and I haven't really bothered to fix them, but I probably would if I weren't being so lazy.

 

4E had this strange little guideline that if the damage is, "reduced," by something (like from 9 DCs to 8 DCs), then you use d6-1, but if it is, "increased," by something (like from 9 or 10 DCs to 11 DCs) then you use 1/2d6. It's a pretty arbitrary distinction.

[Dust Raven]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

I've never liked the 1/2 die and have always prefered to 1d6-1. The reason is simple, at least to me. 10 points is not half of 15. That's all there is to it as far as I'm concerned. If I'm getting a 1/2 die, I want to spend half the cost of a full die and not a point more.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

d6: 1 2 3 4 5 6

Average: 3.5

 

d6-1: 0 1 2 3 4 5

Average: 2.5

 

1/2 d6: 1 1 2 2 3 3

Average: 2

 

To calculate by points: if 15 points gives 3.5 pips of effect, 5 points should give 1.16667 pips of effect - the standard 1 pip "should" be 1/6 of a pip higher. And 10 points should give 2.3333 pips of effect, thus d6-1 is 1/6 of a pip too high, and 1/2 d6 is 1/3 of a pip too low.

 

A "true" half of a d6 would be: .5 1 1.5 2 2.5 3

Average: 1.75

The half-die we use is really a d3.

 

The bottom line for me is that half a pip is not worth worrying about. Do whichever appeals to you more.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

I already gave my ruling, Phil - player got 2d6-1, because it made dramatic & common sense for the build and the power. I'm just curious what everyone else does.

[Rapier]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

Just from my personal viewpoint.

 

1 - 5 pts = 1 pip

6 - 10 pts = 1/2 d6

11 - 14 pts = 1d6 -1

15 pts = 1d6

 

Its not much of a break. But sometimes, especially with heroic games, you end up with some funky numbers (especially with STR Mins).

 

If its comes down to a published 1/2d6 or 1d6 -1, I always go 1/2d6.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

Just from my personal viewpoint.

 

1 - 5 pts = 1 pip

6 - 10 pts = 1/2 d6

11 - 14 pts = 1d6 -1

15 pts = 1d6

 

Its not much of a break. But sometimes, especially with heroic games, you end up with some funky numbers (especially with STR Mins).

 

If its comes down to a published 1/2d6 or 1d6 -1, I always go 1/2d6.

That's kinda neat.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

Actually there's one instance in which I sometimes use d6-1: for Explosion damage. It is less thought to simply subtract 1 Body than to look at the highest die and reinterpret it as a 1/2d6 roll. My laziness again.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

Personally I hate 1/2 dice and prefer to go with a natural 1d6-1 yeilding 0-5 on killing.

 

I let players decide which they prefer, with their preference applying universally for them (not by attack or by character).

[Zeropoint]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

I prefer d6-1, because it's simpler, doesn't introduce the funky half-die, and doesn't require a way to designate which of multiple dice is the half-die.

[Dust Raven]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

Actually there's one instance in which I sometimes use d6-1: for Explosion damage. It is less thought to simply subtract 1 Body than to look at the highest die and reinterpret it as a 1/2d6 roll. My laziness again.

 

I like that. I rarely build an Explosion effect involving a 1/2d6 (or even a +1 or d6-1). If I did, I'd drop the highest die and all partial dice in the first reduction just to make my life easier.

[JmOz]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

I would personaly charge +3 points for the d6-1 level over the 1/2 die, I would also allow the max DC of a hand attack go up by 1 DC

 

Ex 1d6-1, would allow 15 points of strength to add, for a total of 1.5d6, instead of the 1d6+1 it is suppose to stop at

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

It's certainly possible to be m,ore granular. For example, we could use:

 

+1 3 points

 

+1/3d6 6 points

 

+1/2d6 9 points

 

+1d6-1 12 points

 

+1d6 15 points

 

And divide points by 3 for normal attacks, PRE attacks, etc. I've considered this in the past to make stats more granular, so every point of STR or PRE does something, but expanding it to all attacks would work.

 

For 3 point per DC, I'd go back to +1 for 1 point, +1/2d6 for 2 points and +1d6 for 3 points, but we'd then still have the argument over 2 points buying 1d6-1 instead.

[Rapier]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

I totally agree that 1d6-1 is a LOT simpler (and faster) to count than a 1/2d6. It just seems like too much of a cost break. It's just TOO close to 1d6 for 5 points less.

 

But, again, this is all a personal preference. We might as well be asking is it blue-green or aqua or teal?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

I totally agree that 1d6-1 is a LOT simpler (and faster) to count than a 1/2d6. It just seems like too much of a cost break. It's just TOO close to 1d6 for 5 points less.

 

But, again, this is all a personal preference. We might as well be asking is it blue-green or aqua or teal?

 

1d6 averages 3.5. 1d6-1 averages 2.5 (2.67 if you adopt a minimum of 1). 1/2 d6 averages 2. The spread's not huge, but it's certainly there.

[Brother Jim]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

I actually have several dice from 40K 2nd ed that are numbered 1, 2, 3, 1, 2 and a lightning bolt that looks like a stylized 3. The bolt meant that the weapon had "jammed" and wasn't usable for a turn (per bolt rolled).

 

Just remembered, they were called "Sustained Fire" dice.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

I actually have several dice from 40K 2nd ed that are numbered 1, 2, 3, 1, 2 and a lightning bolt that looks like a stylized 3. The bolt meant that the weapon had "jammed" and wasn't usable for a turn (per bolt rolled).

 

Just remembered, they were called "Sustained Fire" dice.

Good for Killing Attack 1/2d6s, but not for Normal Attack 1/2d6s (because you can't tell if the die does a point of Body or not). Unless you modify the die somehow, that is.

[Dust Raven]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

Good for Killing Attack 1/2d6s' date=' but not for Normal Attack 1/2d6s (because you can't tell if the die does a point of Body or not). Unless you modify the die somehow, that is.[/quote']

 

I would think the lightning bolt 3 means a point of BODY, and the normal 3 (or any other number) means no BODY.

[Brother Jim]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

How do you buy a 1/2d6 normal attack ??

[Dust Raven]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

How do you buy a 1/2d6 normal attack ??

 

With 3 points.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

I would think the lightning bolt 3 means a point of BODY' date=' and the normal 3 (or any other number) means no BODY.[/quote']

Except that usually a 1/2d6 or Normal Damage does 1 Body half the time (if the roll was 4, 5, or 6). So both the 3s should do Body and only one of the 2s.

[Yansuf]

Re: 1d6 1/2 vs. 2d6-1; your thoughts

 

It's certainly possible to be m,ore granular. For example, we could use:

 

+1 3 points

 

+1/3d6 6 points

 

+1/2d6 9 points

 

+1d6-1 12 points

 

+1d6 15 points

 

And divide points by 3 for normal attacks, PRE attacks, etc. I've considered this in the past to make stats more granular, so every point of STR or PRE does something, but expanding it to all attacks would work.

 

For 3 point per DC, I'd go back to +1 for 1 point, +1/2d6 for 2 points and +1d6 for 3 points, but we'd then still have the argument over 2 points buying 1d6-1 instead.

 

For low level games (normal characteristic maxima applied) I like to make every point of STR count.

For normal damage, 10 STR is 2d6, and 15 STR is 3d6; so I use

STR=12 -->1d6+1

STR=13 -->1.5d6

STR=14 -->2d6-1

STR=15 -->3d6

STR=16 -->3d6+1

STR=18 -->3.5d6

STR=19 -->4d6-1

STR=20 -->4d6

 

STR=11 gives an extra point of stun over STR=10, as does STR=17 vs 16.

 

For superhero games I generally don't bother though.