How to build: instant learning

[Ndreare]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

I really like this one actually. Really now, what game would you need 1024 different skills for? This should cover it all for you.

 

38pts is not pricey to have all of those skills at hand. Should probably be some limitations on it like extra time and such.... whoch would make it even cheaper...

Also note that the price would go down if you were in a game that was not 350 point characters. But I seem to notice that alot of people use HERO for Champions first and other genre's second so I set the example for a 350 point character pricing the form based on the new form not having multiform and instead having a 3 point skill. (350-38+3=315)

[Dust Raven]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

A further thought - what skills can' date=' in fact, be duplicated?[/quote']

This is the one part of all this that makes this Power impossible, at least in a realitic sense. Say you obseve someone doing backflips and cartwheels for 12 seconds. That shouldn't mean you should be able walk a tightrope and wiggle around on the ground to maintain full DCV even if you can learn and mimic that quickly. If you observe the captin of a ship plot a course from Miami to New York, that doesn't mean the observing character will be able to plot a course back; there are too many factors involved the character will have no knowledge of unless the captain explains every step (which would take a lot longer than 12 seconds).

 

Now if there were more than just observation involved, such as some kind of telepathic scanning, so that the observing character can get all of the relavant informtion about how the Skill is used, then this can work and you can have a character watch an acrobat due a 12 second tightrope walk and for the rest of the day you can backflip, catch flagpoles and flip through occupied hexes during combat.

[Ndreare]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

This is the one part of all this that makes this Power impossible' date=' at least in a realitic sense. [/quote']

 

Remember all too often when talking about people who throw fireballs and read minds useing the term Realistic in any way is a far stretch.

[radioKAOS]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

This is the one part of all this that makes this Power impossible, at least in a realitic sense. Say you obseve someone doing backflips and cartwheels for 12 seconds. That shouldn't mean you should be able walk a tightrope and wiggle around on the ground to maintain full DCV even if you can learn and mimic that quickly. If you observe the captin of a ship plot a course from Miami to New York, that doesn't mean the observing character will be able to plot a course back; there are too many factors involved the character will have no knowledge of unless the captain explains every step (which would take a lot longer than 12 seconds).

 

Now if there were more than just observation involved, such as some kind of telepathic scanning, so that the observing character can get all of the relavant informtion about how the Skill is used, then this can work and you can have a character watch an acrobat due a 12 second tightrope walk and for the rest of the day you can backflip, catch flagpoles and flip through occupied hexes during combat.

 

Telepathy could certainly be one of the SFX that would explain this power.

[Mike W]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

I've built this before. Here's how I did it. Very limited Telepathy.

 

"Monkey See, Monkey Do"

Telepathy 5D6, must have LOS(-1/4), only to acquire a skill in use(-2). Active Points: 25. Real Cost: 8

 

Okay, you're not going to get anyone with Mental Defense, but how often do you intend to steal a skill from someone with Mental Defense anyway. I suppose you could double the dice and be able to read almost anyone. I mean, you really only need to match their EGO for this kind of effect.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

How about every Skill (except the game's Everyman Skills) at the 1-point Familiarity level, bought as Powers, plus a well-limited Aid with Variable Effect: 1 Power at a Time (+1/4)? The Background Skills could be bought as exceedingly general skills, limited to the general scope of the target skill by a suitable Limitation on the Aid (probably -0 unless the Limitation can be stated generally enough that it also limits other Skills in some fashion), though the Aid might need to be pretty darn big to make this effective for largely specialized areas. May also need Can Apply Adders (+1) for Skills with categories (like Survival).

[Mike W]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

How about every Skill (except the game's Everyman Skills) at the 1-point Familiarity level' date=' bought as Powers, plus a well-limited Aid with [i']Variable Effect: 1 Power at a Time (+1/4)[/i]? The Background Skills could be bought as exceedingly general skills, limited to the general scope of the target skill by a suitable Limitation on the Aid (probably -0 unless the Limitation can be stated generally enough that it also limits other Skills in some fashion), though the Aid might need to be pretty darn big to make this effective for largely specialized areas. May also need Can Apply Adders (+1) for Skills with categories (like Survival).

 

The problem with this is how much do you charge for it? I mean, can you really buy EVERY Knowledge Skill in the game? What if someone buys one you hadn't thought of? And how many do you really need? Do you buy just KS: Literature or do you have to buy KS: Victorian Literature, KS: Renaissance Literature, KS: Shakespeare, KS: African Literature, KS: Japanese Literature...and so on. The number of Knowledge Skills alone is almost infinite if you get specific enough.

 

This requires a power for a solution I think.

[OddHat]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

The problem with this is how much do you charge for it? I mean, can you really buy EVERY Knowledge Skill in the game? What if someone buys one you hadn't thought of? And how many do you really need? Do you buy just KS: Literature or do you have to buy KS: Victorian Literature, KS: Renaissance Literature, KS: Shakespeare, KS: African Literature, KS: Japanese Literature...and so on. The number of Knowledge Skills alone is almost infinite if you get specific enough.

 

This requires a power for a solution I think.

 

Officially, it is possible to buy KS:Everything there is to Know, and then rely on skill penalties to get more specific. Glactic Champions features two characters using roughly that build, and Star Hero (iirc) discusses how to price it. Hopefully The Ultimate Skill will go into more detail.

 

However, the GM could allow 20 Universal Knowledge: Detect A Large Class Of Things: Answers 11- (Unusual Group), Discriminatory, Analyze

 

The price comes out to something similar to Universal Translator.

[Dust Raven]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

Remember all too often when talking about people who throw fireballs and read minds useing the term Realistic in any way is a far stretch.

 

True, but when I ask where Blastman's energy blast comes from and he says "my hands" I can buy that. Spells and magic are also easly taken it, it's magic after all. Mind reading is reality anyway, it's just taken to a superhuman level.

 

But "I watched you dashing some oregano into your marinara (PS: Chef 14-) so now I can walk over here create a cullinary masterpiece" is more than far fetched. If it were magic, telepathic, establishing a clairvoyant link to the subject's experiences or something like that, I'd buy it. If it's just some guy watching for a moment then saying "oh, I get it", then no. You might as well buy the guy a HA +10d6 and say it's just a normal punch using normal STR and normal effort.

[Dust Raven]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

I've built this before. Here's how I did it. Very limited Telepathy.

 

"Monkey See, Monkey Do"

Telepathy 5D6, must have LOS(-1/4), only to acquire a skill in use(-2). Active Points: 25. Real Cost: 8

 

Okay, you're not going to get anyone with Mental Defense, but how often do you intend to steal a skill from someone with Mental Defense anyway. I suppose you could double the dice and be able to read almost anyone. I mean, you really only need to match their EGO for this kind of effect.

 

8 points?

 

Other than the cost, there are a few things about this build that don't work. First is that if you can't access the target's senses using Telepathy, I don't see how you can access their Skills. Knowledge Skills might be, but that's just information. The other is that at EGO+ you only can read surface thoughts. I doubt surface thoughts include a step by step commentary including a "how to" of everything they are doing. This is EGO+10 at least, and some may even be EGO+30 if the Skill represents instinctive behavior.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

He wanted 100% book legal so that is how I made it. When looking in the book -1 is the highest level a "Limited Class of Powers" goes. However when we get into GM fiat I would easly consider it a -2 limitation if not -3.

 

I thinbk the max limit (in 5er at least) is -1 1/2, which could be "multiform only", at least in this context. I think it's legit to further limit it with "VPP can only be changed in certain circumstances" (-1/2; while watching target with skill) and "extra time - 1 turn" (-1)

 

The wall we hit, however, is that the base 70 points can't be limited, so the constrict is very costly. I think the actual Multiform, with multiple doublings and limitations applying to the Multiform itself, is the more appropriate, and economical, way to go.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

Hmm. Don't like my previous suggestion? Okay....

Computer Link: Fount of Infinite Knowledge (10 points; maybe 20

);

Only to Study Subjects of Which the Character Has Already Received a Peek (-1);

 

+Cramming

 

+Clairsentience: Special, "Learning," Sense, Precognitive;

[40 Base]

Reduced End Cost: 0 End (+1/2);

Persistent (+1/2);

[80 Active]

Precognition Only (-1);

Only for Pre-studying Crammed Skills (-2);

[20 Real]

 

+Aid: 5d6 to Crammed Skill;

[50 Base and Active]

Limited to Skill Level of Observed Subject (-1);

[25 Real]

[Mike W]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

8 points?

 

Other than the cost, there are a few things about this build that don't work. First is that if you can't access the target's senses using Telepathy, I don't see how you can access their Skills. Knowledge Skills might be, but that's just information. The other is that at EGO+ you only can read surface thoughts. I doubt surface thoughts include a step by step commentary including a "how to" of everything they are doing. This is EGO+10 at least, and some may even be EGO+30 if the Skill represents instinctive behavior.

 

There's a bit of a balancing act going on here. I think 8 points is fair for one rotating skill slot, especially when you have very limited control over what you can put in that spot. After all, if no one is using the skill within line of site, you can't acquire it. To me, it's broader than Universal Translator(which costs 20) but it doesn't automatically provide you with the necessary information. With UT, you pretty well always can "acquire" the skill(language) you need for the situation. After all, if you need to speak to someone in their own language, you automatically have someone with the skill you need available. But with the "skill imitator", if no one knows how the skill, you can't acquire it. And even if someone does, you have no control over how good you are at the skill either.

 

As far as the Telepathy goes, if you want to make a case for EGO +10 I won't put up much of a fight, but not EGO +30. You're at least subconciously leafing through everything you know about something when you try to do it or recall something about it. So all of that is brought up toward the surfaceor at the very least, your mind is providing a handy map to the rest because your'e thinking about it in general.

 

As far as being able to access the senses to do the skill, how much do you need THEIR senses when you're watching them do it with your own? As written, you need LOS to use the power, that implies if not requires you can see what they're doing with your own senses.

[OddHat]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

Don't forget the Mechanic vs SFX issue.

 

The SFX may be that you're reading someone's mind in order to learn a skill. In game mechanics terms, the game effect "Telepathy" does not permit you to borrow skills, ever. It's just not part of the mechanic. The GM can allow it (as GMs we can allow anything), but that's back into GMs call teritory, which the original poster wanted to avoid.

 

Of course, with something like this, a GMs call build like a skill VPP is the simplest way to go.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

There's a bit of a balancing act going on here. I think 8 points is fair for one rotating skill slot' date=' especially when you have very limited control over what you can put in that spot. After all, if no one is using the skill within line of site, you can't acquire it. To me, it's broader than Universal Translator(which costs 20) but it doesn't automatically provide you with the necessary information. With UT, you pretty well always can "acquire" the skill(language) you need for the situation. After all, if you need to speak to someone in their own language, you automatically have someone with the skill you need available. But with the "skill imitator", if no one knows how the skill, you can't acquire it. And even if someone does, you have no control over how good you are at the skill either.[/quote']

 

I'm going to come back, again, to the need to specify what skills can be learned. Your comments on Universal Translator reminded me that languages are skills. If the character can pick up languages as part of this package, and other skills besides, it seems unlikely the cost should be less than Universal Translator.

[David Johnston]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

I've built this before. Here's how I did it. Very limited Telepathy.

 

"Monkey See, Monkey Do"

Telepathy 5D6, must have LOS(-1/4), only to acquire a skill in use(-2). Active Points: 25. Real Cost: 8

 

The problem of course being that telepathy won't let you acquire a skill. You could probe someone's memory for a pointer on how to do something, or for some fact from one of their KS's but you could no more acquire a skill like, say Acrobatics, than you could yourself perform a gymnastics routine untrained just by having a trained gymnast tell you what to do. At most it would give a favourable circumstance bonus to your roll.

 

Remember all too often when talking about people who throw fireballs and read minds useing the term Realistic in any way is a far stretch.

 

But "realistic" in this case doesn't refer to their capabilit1es. It refers to ours, at least using this game system.

 

Of course the reason why Skill VPPs are questionable is because they are so very, very cheap. You can do "anything" for an investment of 3 points. But if you make your Skill VPP as large as a power mimic pool and limited to mimicing one person at a time, I think you can sell it to any GM who will tolerate VPPs in the first place.

[ideasmith]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

Of course the reason why Skill VPPs are questionable is because they are so very' date=' very cheap. You can do "anything" for an investment of 3 points. But if you make your Skill VPP as large as a power mimic pool and limited to mimicing one person at a time, I think you can sell it to any GM who will tolerate VPPs in the first place.[/quote']

 

I have a house rule that Special Powers & Skills take up 5 times thier active cost in 'space' in a Power Pool or Multipower pool. Instead of the 1* active cost usual in such cases.

[Dust Raven]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

There's a bit of a balancing act going on here. I think 8 points is fair for one rotating skill slot' date=' especially when you have very limited control over what you can put in that spot. After all, if no one is using the skill within line of site, you can't acquire it. To me, it's broader than Universal Translator(which costs 20) but it doesn't automatically provide you with the necessary information. With UT, you pretty well always can "acquire" the skill(language) you need for the situation. After all, if you need to speak to someone in their own language, you automatically have someone with the skill you need available. But with the "skill imitator", if no one knows how the skill, you can't acquire it. And even if someone does, you have no control over how good you are at the skill either.[/quote']

I can see your point there. The only thing I'd have to say is that Universal Translator effectively grants the user basic fluency in language; just enough to understand and reply meaningfully. So that's essentially 20 points for a chance of using any 1 poing Language. If you compare it to the ability to use any given Skill, the cost should be proportianate. Skills can cost 3 points or more, and the suggested power doesn't involve a Skill Roll to activate, it just takes 1 Turn and it works. Also, once you've mimiced a Skill, you keep it, it doesn't vanish when the person you are mimicing goes away like when using UT. Sounds to me like it should cost quite a bit more than UT instead of less.

 

As far as the Telepathy goes, if you want to make a case for EGO +10 I won't put up much of a fight, but not EGO +30. You're at least subconciously leafing through everything you know about something when you try to do it or recall something about it. So all of that is brought up toward the surfaceor at the very least, your mind is providing a handy map to the rest because your'e thinking about it in general.

Exactly, subconsciouslly, not remembering your lessons. Subconscious is EG0+30. And I disagree that you think about everything you do, even things you've had to study and learn. Typing is a learned skill of mind but I don't think about what keys I'm hiting with each stoke. I also don't think about how all the sounds I make form words and sentences to create a complex statement when I communicate. I just do it. Though I'm not an acrobat, I suppose it would be the same there. At least for anything routine or mildly easy.

 

As far as being able to access the senses to do the skill, how much do you need THEIR senses when you're watching them do it with your own? As written, you need LOS to use the power, that implies if not requires you can see what they're doing with your own senses.

 

Not always. All that's required to target someone with a Mental Power is the ability to sense them with a Targeting Sense. You don't have to be able to sense them in detail, just enough to differentiate them as a target from their surroundings and from other potential targets they may be near. For example, you could see some across a crowded room, identify them by seeing their face, but not have any idea what they are doing. If they were showing a bunch of people a neat card trick they picked up you'd have no idea. Even if you were right in front of them you might not see what they are doing because part of them may be concealed behind something for part of the trick.

[Mike W]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

Well, again, I think that having to rely on someone actually using the skill is worth a significant limit on the power, even if it is broader than UT in terms of what it can do. After all, with Universal Translator, you can technically speak first. With this, you can't. You would have to wait for them to say something to you. Same for anything else, if you want to save someone from bleeding to death, you can't do it, even in the presence of a first class EMT unless the EMT moves to help the person(or someone else) as well. I think that GREATLY reduces the usefullness of the power.

 

As far as the EGO +30 goes, I still don't buy it. To me, there is a difference between digging through someone's subconcious to find something they haven't thought about in years and diigging through to find something they are looking for themselves. To me, if the person whose mind you're reading is looking for the information, it isn't buried that deep. And again, there is a power balance issue here. Do we really want to make this a 65 or 70 point power as the base?

 

 

SIDE NOTE: I realize that technically you aren't supposed to be able to learn skills just by reading minds, but I don't see any way around needing GM's permission for whatever build you try to use.

[Bloodstone]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

I know this is probably not the SFX you are going for, but you might be able to steal the mechanics and make it into something that you can use.

 

One of the NPC's that I designed once was a Super Shaman with the ability to draw on racial memories and access the collective knowledge of all mankind. Kind of like the Doctor from the Authority, only not a useless drug addicted prick...

 

Anyhow, the way I built this Racial Memory power was as a Summon with the Expanded Class advantage (Ancestor Spirits +1/4). It was slightly more complex then that, but that was the key advantage.

 

Whenever he needed a skill he didn't have, I could just summon a ghost with the right skills and have it merge with him. You see, all the ghosts had skills with the Useable By Other advantage.

 

You could do something similar, only instead of summoning Ghosts you could perhaps summon some sort of abstract psionic entity or something. The character may not even realize exactly how the power works...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

Anyhow, the way I built this Racial Memory power was as a Summon with the Expanded Class advantage (Ancestor Spirits +1/4). It was slightly more complex then that, but that was the key advantage.

 

Whenever he needed a skill he didn't have, I could just summon a ghost with the right skills and have it merge with him. You see, all the ghosts had skills with the Useable By Other advantage.

 

You could do something similar, only instead of summoning Ghosts you could perhaps summon some sort of abstract psionic entity or something. The character may not even realize exactly how the power works...

 

Two comments.

 

First, the ability doesn't have to summon an entity just because the power is called Summon. Call it Summoning up your physical memory of how to perform the skill you have observed.

 

Second, even if the "Summon" name bothers you, this is one means of achieving the desired result. It may be useful to price it out as an indicator of what such an ability might reasonably cost.

[Bloodstone]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

Normally you have to summon a "thing", be it a creature or object.

 

I didn't think suggesting "Summon Spontaneous Knowledge of Observed Skill" directly would be at all appropriate given the "...using only the rules as written, with no "GM permission" or "stretching the rules a little"?" line from the OP.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

Normally you have to summon a "thing"' date=' be it a creature or object. [/quote']

 

"Physical memory" could be considered a "thing". In any case, I think we've already established that achieving these effects "...using only the rules as written, with no "GM permission" or "stretching the rules a little"?" isn't feasible. The GM is going to have to allow for the ability, or deny it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

Normally you have to summon a "thing"' date=' be it a creature or object.[/quote']

I think it's even more specific than that. I believe the thing you Summon actually has to have a character sheet, technically (meaning has to be built with some kind of Characteristic block, etc.).

[ideasmith]

Re: How to build: instant learning

 

I think it's even more specific than that. I believe the thing you Summon actually has to have a character sheet' date=' technically (meaning has to be built with some kind of Characteristic block, etc.).[/quote']

 

A spirit can have a Characteristic block. So can a memory, if someone writes up a Characterstic block for it. (Don't forget the Always On Desolid & Invisibility.) I'd say "requires a Charactistic Block' is less specific than 'must be a creature or object'.