Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

[Vestnik]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Guys, I think steph is right. This is just an instance of the Incantations disad kicking in. If he can't talk, he can't incant.

 

Stopping people from talking by cutting off their air is something anybody can do. If we go down the route of statting out things everyone can do, we're going to wind up buying "superpowers" like "Can Cover Target's Mouth With His Hands" and "6" Running, Restrainable (legs can be grabbed; -1/2)". Or "1d6 NND (Defense is Self-Contained Breathing), Does BODY, No Range, Must Follow a Grab, Must Be Next to Pool of Water" to represent dunking someone's head underwater.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Guys, I think steph is right. This is just an instance of the Incantations disad kicking in. If he can't talk, he can't incant.

 

Stopping people from talking by cutting off their air is something anybody can do. If we go down the route of statting out things everyone can do, we're going to wind up buying "superpowers" like "Can Cover Target's Mouth With His Hands" and "6" Running, Restrainable (legs can be grabbed; -1/2)". Or "1d6 NND (Defense is Self-Contained Breathing), Does BODY, No Range, Must Follow a Grab, Must Be Next to Pool of Water" to represent dunking someone's head underwater.

I think the point is that he wanted to stop them from talking for a time while he did other stuff (instead of sitting around squeezing their windpipe).

[Vestnik]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

I think the point is that he wanted to stop them from talking for a time while he did other stuff (instead of sitting around squeezing their windpipe).

 

Ah, that makes sense then. My bad.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

 

Yes, presto is exactly right. It wasn't just "Okay, I choke a fool" it was "Run up & jack someone in the throat, leaving them going *hack, cough* and unable to Incant while I flip out and kill someone else, with the spell caster now occupied trying to find a way to BREATHE. In this case, it's a special effect of Silence." The two ways to do this are Flash & Darkness, but I have yet to see the official rule for Flash: Speech. I just want to see an example so I know that it's book legal, since that would fix the problem completely.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Okay, I understand. The mage with incantations is kind of a red-herring. The real question is, "how do you silence a person?"

 

I still say a choke hold (including just a grab targetting the head/throat location) should be able to do it, or have a chance of doing it, and a good disabling strike to the same location does it without having to hang on continuously. A dedicated martial manuever with this specific purpose, bought with the "disable" element, should work if you want to be able to do it reliably and consistently.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Now, try silencing a palindromedary, at BOTH ends....

 

This was where I was going with my example, but I was unclear, largely because I used only one of the options I've worked out for my game.

 

To reiterate.

Custom Martial Arts creations rules. Disable Element. Autotargets the head (throat) for no damage bonus.

For someone without martial arts.... called shot to head (or shoulders if the GM is willing) Choose to hit the Throat/Neck "location". Hope for an imparing or disabling hit, or use the optional Numbing Rules from UMA

 

If you want the massive neck damage either call the Neck part of the head, with appropriate damage modifiers and location penalies, or use the optional Neck location from Dark Champions

 

 

 

Yes, presto is exactly right. It wasn't just "Okay, I choke a fool" it was "Run up & jack someone in the throat, leaving them going *hack, cough* and unable to Incant while I flip out and kill someone else, with the spell caster now occupied trying to find a way to BREATHE. In this case, it's a special effect of Silence." The two ways to do this are Flash & Darkness, but I have yet to see the official rule for Flash: Speech. I just want to see an example so I know that it's book legal, since that would fix the problem completely.

There are a lot of moves that can jack someones throat. A lot are martial moves. Some aren't. In general, I dislike the Flash/Darkness model for the same reason I dislike the Martial Arts flashes... If you hit someone with a stiff finger eyejab or a proper earclap, in the real world, the loss of function of the targeted organs is a side effect of the harm you've inflicted...it doesn't suddenly get better a couple of seconds later. I see both of these as specially targeted strikes with Disable, possibly/probably NND damage, and the Numbing rules (because it gives us a nice short term effect rule) that simulates sudden wound shock rather well, which is what cause the gagging fro a throat hit, the blinding eye watering white hot pain from an eye impact, or the painful overpressure of an earclap.

Flash just doesn't cut it for me.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

There are a lot of moves that can jack someones throat. A lot are martial moves. Some aren't. In general, I dislike the Flash/Darkness model for the same reason I dislike the Martial Arts flashes... If you hit someone with a stiff finger eyejab or a proper earclap, in the real world, the loss of function of the targeted organs is a side effect of the harm you've inflicted...it doesn't suddenly get better a couple of seconds later. I see both of these as specially targeted strikes with Disable, possibly/probably NND damage, and the Numbing rules (because it gives us a nice short term effect rule) that simulates sudden wound shock rather well, which is what cause the gagging fro a throat hit, the blinding eye watering white hot pain from an eye impact, or the painful overpressure of an earclap.

Flash just doesn't cut it for me.

To be fair, some games don't use Hit Locations or Disabling rules. Flash/Darkness type builds are probably especially appropriate for superheroic games (or perhaps spells designed to hamper speech without other damaging effects).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Okay, Fool, I'll try the disabling build. Where are the precise rules for such a thing? In the regular text, or should I bust out UMA?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Okay' date=' Fool, I'll try the disabling build. Where are the precise rules for such a thing? In the regular text, or should I bust out UMA?[/quote']

UMA time, oh Captian, my Captain

 

Reread all the sections on Disabling... they are scattered among a few different parts of the book. Also check out the Numbing rules.

 

EDIT:

You can also use the Martial arts design rules to create a 0-1 pt cost maneuver that you adopt as a optional standard combat maneuver. Good be a good model for a "Dirty Tricks" house rule... a strike with the disable element, appropriate penalties to get the cost to the right cost (OCV penalty, perhaps extra segment like a haymaker so they are easy to stop, which is pretty appropriate, and an asumption that it autotargets a declared exposed vunerable spot for no extra damage but automatically using the numbing rules applied to the function of the target location.

[Shike019]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Thia, You'll have to bust out UMA as that is the only place that they have been published, and probably will be published.

 

 

BTW, I agree with the Martial maneuver approach vs. the power approach. It signifies what you want, imho, exactally.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Okay, y'all wait here a second while I go get my book.

 

From page 156: The second way [to disable a limb] is to buy a Martial Manuever with the Disable element. Manuevers of this sort are specifically intended to target limbs, and do not suffer either to-hit or damage penalties for the locations targeted (empasis mine).

 

So that seems to be what everyone is referring too - more importantly, there's the Nerve Strike modifier right after it, which may be precisely what I was looking for; there's also a die roll attached for durations (which I can partially handwave) and I would just build it as a variation on 'Head' to 'Throat' and call it good. Although a 'Head' shot would render you unable to act, that's almost... extreme.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Okay, y'all wait here a second while I go get my book.

 

 

 

So that seems to be what everyone is referring too - more importantly, there's the Nerve Strike modifier right after it, which may be precisely what I was looking for; there's also a die roll attached for durations (which I can partially handwave) and I would just build it as a variation on 'Head' to 'Throat' and call it good. Although a 'Head' shot would render you unable to act, that's almost... extreme.

If you read it closely, you'll find they dispel that notion... a head shot renders you incapable of acting WITH your head...specifically, making an attack action.

 

If you stretch the definition of attack action to include verbalization (such as Incantatins or shouting "Look out, we're being attacked!") then you're golden.

[Black Rose]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

I'm completely in favor of doing this as a UMA-built disabling/numbing attack. I already have a number of 0-pt "Standard Maneuvers" that I consider perfectly reasonable, including a velocity-based trip/throw and a couple of flashes - eye and ear - so a larynx strike seems reasonable.

 

It seems even more reasonable in the face of my neverending search for more "accupressure strikes" to play with.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

DR: I just reviewed pages 160-162; I didn't see it there' date=' anywhere. Can you give me an immediate point of reference?[/quote']

I don't have 5ER with me, but looking in 5E, it's on page 229 near the bottom of the first columm. I assume it's in the corropsonding location in 5ER around page 352-353.

[Zed-F]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

I agree with the above sentiment.

 

If you want something that stops someone from talking at all while you go off and do something else, the disable maneuver fits the bill.

 

If all you want to do is stop someone from incanting, the requirements are less strenuous. You don't need to be able to stop someone from talking entirely; all you need to do is muss up his ability to talk sufficiently to prevent the words from coming out just so, exactly as they are supposed to. A basic choke hold or really pretty much anything that interferes with vocalization at all will accomplish that. That's why it's a limitation.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Again, there's that inside/outside thing. It seems that numbing/disabling is what I'm looking for. ANB, would you mind throwing a Manuever together as an example for me and posting it for me? I'd like to see how you do it with UMA (note: not how you "do it" - just how you do it. Perv.) and that'll give me a good foundation from which to work.

[Frenchman]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

'K, this is great for martial artists, but what do we do for a character who wants to be able to do this some other way? Such as via a spell or a super with flesh-molding powers who does that thing Agent Smith did to Neo in The Matrix?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Congratulations! You're right back where we started. This is why I thought Flash was the best way to go - but it requires a handwave.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

'K' date=' this is great for martial artists, but what do we do for a character who wants to be able to do this some other way? Such as via a spell or a super with flesh-molding powers who does that thing Agent Smith did to Neo in The Matrix?[/quote']

that sort of attack is a Transform, IMHO.

 

As there is no Ranged Martial Arts option for a Disable Element, to address the question of a ranged attack, I direct you to the optional Additional Hit Locations Chart in Dark Champions on page 185.

Right there is an option for targeting the Neck/Throat, with a footnote that hits to the throat "usually causes loss of voice or similar problems in addition to any other damage it causes"

 

And sorry about the repeated references to the Numbing Rules. I didn't realize till I was reveiwing my books that they had been dropped from UMA in the transition 'tween 4th & 5th Edition.

 

Thia...

I've been busy as heck the last couple of days, but I should be able to rustle up an example build for you soonish.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Which would be very groovy. If I could see the manuever and a couple of direct page references, that would resolve at least one way to do it. Still looking for others, though.

 

Generally speaking, though, the answer to the question is "Darkness."

[Frenchman]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

that sort of attack is a Transform' date=' IMHO.[/quote']

AAAHHH!!!! Get your filthy transform away from me!

 

Generally speaking' date=' though, the answer to the question is "Darkness."[/quote']

This is the way I would do it. After all, we allready have something that blocks speech - darkness - so we just have to limit it so that speech is the only thing it blocks. No need to get messy with transforms.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

AAAHHH!!!! Get your filthy transform away from me!

 

 

This is the way I would do it. After all, we allready have something that blocks speech - darkness - so we just have to limit it so that speech is the only thing it blocks. No need to get messy with transforms.

 

For the record...

 

I DO see the simley, so ths isn't entirely aimed at you...

 

*Rant mode engaged*

 

WTF is the big thing about transformation attacks that has everyone so bloody mindedly determined to avoid them at all costs, especially when the SFX described fits a Transform to a T?

 

Fine, you don't like Transforms.

 

Fine.

 

Drain Language Skills, 2d6, All of a group at once (+2), Delayed Return rate 5 pts/day (+1), Ranged (+1/2).

Limit to taste.

 

Happy?

 

Not that I'd ever allow the smegging build, mind you.

 

Harrumph.

 

*rant mode off*

[prestidigitator]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

WTF is the big thing about transformation attacks that has everyone so bloody mindedly determined to avoid them at all costs' date=' especially when the SFX described fits a Transform to a T?[/quote']

Beats me. I do have a problem with Transform being used in cases where we simply can't seem to think of a clear way to approach a problem, or when there really does seem to be a more...conceptually appropriate solution, but I think people have taken it a little too far and gone into a, "don't use Transform for anything, no matter what," mode. That, to me, is just unfortunate. It's a good mechanic, and has a lot of cool uses. It shouldn't be used to patch up every hole in the dam so to speak, but that doesn't mean it's a bad Power.

[Frenchman]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

I guess, I touched a nerve, and I apologize. Not to derail the thread, but I would like to respond to Amadan's questions and statements - I do not mean to be combative or argumentative (well, not much) so I'll apologize in advance if I come off that way.

 

[DERAIL THREAD]

Since I am set to avoid transforms whenever possible, hopefully I can shed some light on our (I'm going to us that pronoun to refer to us hesitant-to-transform types) reasons for that, and I hope my reasoning is sound to others, as well.

First off, I do not think the sFX of removing someones capability to speak "fits a Transform to a T," whether its by use of a throat-smash, a silence spell, mucking someone's lips together, or putting super glue in the peanut butter. To me when someone tells me that the Agent Smith Trick is best accomplished with a transform, I also imagine the arguments that transform is the 'best' method to accomplish, say, turning someones clothes into a straightjacket or making their muscles wither away. Personally, I'd use entangle and drain for those two, but I've heard Transform arguments for both.

I guess one reason I reacted the way I did was that it seems that many peoples first reaction when creating a power that isn't immediantly and enormously obvious is to use a Transform, when I use transform either when I need some of its specific mechanics, or as a last resort when I can't find anything else to work (I can't think of a time that I've had to resort to transform for that reason, though)

Whenever I see someone suggest that a Transform be used, I ask myself, "Is there any other way that this effect can be achieved using one or more of the other powers?" The huge majority of the time, there is.

So for the silence power, I asked myself what other powers can effectivly prevent another from speaking, either by cutting off their ability to speak or masking the sound. Darkness, Images, and Change Environment all seem to be able to do that, by preventing all hearing, changing or eliminating the sound, or inflicting PER penalties, respectivly. I chose Darkness because it is the only one that makes it absolutely impossible to percieve, where both images and CE allow a PER roll. Unfortunatly, darkness also hinders other sounds, both coming from the target and going to them. Thankfully, thats what limitations are for, and so as long as the GM is willing to accept that Speech Only is an acceptable limitation for darkness, we have a winner - for me, at least.

Now, saying I don't like transforms is going a bit far, I do like transforms, most of my wizards have one or two, I just like to limit them to effects which actually fundamentally transform the target, like some transmutation effects (turning one material into another) and the like.

As for the drain languages, I'd never allow it either - you can't drain a skill.

It most certainly does not make me happy that you suggest that, because it makes you sound petulant, which makes me think I have personally offended and hurt you - which really doesn't make me happy at all. I have never intended to hurt someone on these boards or offend them on a personal level - I make fun of their posts occasionally, but only in jest or to make a point.

Again, I apologize, and I hope this clears up some of the questions you may have about why 'we' think about transforms this way

[/DERAIL THREAD]

 

PS - Once again, Presdigitator has put it much better than I could have done.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

I guess, I touched a nerve, and I apologize. Not to derail the thread, but I would like to respond to Amadan's questions and statements - I do not mean to be combative or argumentative (well, not much) so I'll apologize in advance if I come off that way.

 

[DERAIL THREAD]

Since I am set to avoid transforms whenever possible, hopefully I can shed some light on our (I'm going to us that pronoun to refer to us hesitant-to-transform types) reasons for that, and I hope my reasoning is sound to others, as well.

First off, I do not think the sFX of removing someones capability to speak "fits a Transform to a T," whether its by use of a throat-smash, a silence spell, mucking someone's lips together, or putting super glue in the peanut butter. To me when someone tells me that the Agent Smith Trick is best accomplished with a transform, I also imagine the arguments that transform is the 'best' method to accomplish, say, turning someones clothes into a straightjacket or making their muscles wither away. Personally, I'd use entangle and drain for those two, but I've heard Transform arguments for both.

I guess one reason I reacted the way I did was that it seems that many peoples first reaction when creating a power that isn't immediantly and enormously obvious is to use a Transform, when I use transform either when I need some of its specific mechanics, or as a last resort when I can't find anything else to work (I can't think of a time that I've had to resort to transform for that reason, though)

Whenever I see someone suggest that a Transform be used, I ask myself, "Is there any other way that this effect can be achieved using one or more of the other powers?" The huge majority of the time, there is.

So for the silence power, I asked myself what other powers can effectivly prevent another from speaking, either by cutting off their ability to speak or masking the sound. Darkness, Images, and Change Environment all seem to be able to do that, by preventing all hearing, changing or eliminating the sound, or inflicting PER penalties, respectivly. I chose Darkness because it is the only one that makes it absolutely impossible to percieve, where both images and CE allow a PER roll. Unfortunatly, darkness also hinders other sounds, both coming from the target and going to them. Thankfully, thats what limitations are for, and so as long as the GM is willing to accept that Speech Only is an acceptable limitation for darkness, we have a winner - for me, at least.

Now, saying I don't like transforms is going a bit far, I do like transforms, most of my wizards have one or two, I just like to limit them to effects which actually fundamentally transform the target, like some transmutation effects (turning one material into another) and the like.

As for the drain languages, I'd never allow it either - you can't drain a skill.

It most certainly does not make me happy that you suggest that, because it makes you sound petulant, which makes me think I have personally offended and hurt you - which really doesn't make me happy at all. I have never intended to hurt someone on these boards or offend them on a personal level - I make fun of their posts occasionally, but only in jest or to make a point.

Again, I apologize, and I hope this clears up some of the questions you may have about why 'we' think about transforms this way

[/DERAIL THREAD]

 

PS - Once again, Presdigitator has put it much better than I could have done.

 

No worries.

I was't being petulant at you as much as generally venting about the whole developed group of HERO players on here who hate and despise Transforms. I happen to like the little buggers, but I remember back when they were first introduced and were one of the only ways to make a long term effect on another character (well, they added Destroy to the power list at the same time, but alas and alac, it's gone now).

To clarify... Your description of "a super with flesh-molding powers" was what made me think "Transform", instantly. That was the line I was thinking of when I mentioned that the description fits transform to a T.

I can make this system sing and dance, as I HAD to back in prehistory

But in many cases, I see people WAY overcomplicate things just to avoid powers they feel are cop outs.

 

For my part, I'm actually thinking about redoing the Hit Location chart to accomodate the chance of randomly hitting tha various optional Hit Locations added with Dark Champions.

 

I haven't even remotely been considering a power build for this effect, but rather the closest rules legal system to acheive the goal "to shut someone the heck up" without having to twist the system into knots. Then again, I mostly play Heroic level games, and interpreted Thia's request as one for the same, as from what I know he's mainly seeming to focus right now on FH and SH.

 

EDIT: For the record, on the subject of your examples...

I probably WOULD use a Transform for changing someones clothes to a straightjacket.

In a heroic game. In a superheroic one, I'd use an Entangle. A lot of powers don't work as well on a heroic level as they do on a Superheroic one, and a transform, by its very GM-adjudicated nature, gives me the room to wiggle the power to where it has the exact effect I am trying to produce without having to , once again, nerf the system.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

So I just reveiwed the whole section on disabling strikes in the 5th edition UMA, and this is gonna take me a bit of work to pull off, at least as a 0-1 pt new optional maneuver. It pretty much REQUIRES using the optional Throat targeting rules from DC and a generous portion of handwavium (ok, GM interpretation of the DC footnote, anyway) to pull it off.

 

I hadn't realized how badly the various sublethal Disabling options had been nerfed i the transition from 4th Edition UMA to 5th.

It almost seems like Steve, upon taking the helm as line editor, decided that game balance was more important than accurate simulation or something.

 

For my games I suspect I'm gonna interpret the DC statement after the thraot location to simply apply the Disabling/Impairing Nerve strike time chart to see how long speech is disrupted by a throat strike.

I'll work up a set of house rules, using pre-existing models as much as possible, and post 'em, and see what folks think