Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

[Thia Halmades]

Howdy, y'all. This is something I've been muddling with for a while. When you're dealing with fantasy hero, one of the first things that non-casters must learn (especially military trained spec-ops) is how to keep other casters from either firing spells, or interfering with your caster. It's common, tactical sense. You don't want the guy going 'woogy woogy woo' to suddenly get off a 6d6 EB Fireball and cook half the party. You want insurance.

 

You want him quiet. So. I've been futzing about trying to figure out the best way to model a Knife-Fighting throat-strike. In other words, the Knife Fighter dances up to you - or gets behind you - and executes a throat-smash.

 

I originally built this as a Flash (Speech) group. One problem! No such group exists! You cannot 'Flash' someone's ability to talk, which seemed a shame, as it was exactly the effect I was looking for. So my second thought was, once Markdoc explained that you'd have to use Darkness to do it, looked like this:

 

Throat Smash: Darkness (speech group), One Hex (Accurate, -0), Uncontrolled (+1/2); OIF (weapon of opportunity, -1/2), Must do BODY (-1)

 

I couldn't think of a couple of things. One, what's the easy obvious way to attach this to an attack? Make it an NPA (sorry, brain not working well today)? Should I then chart up Darkness as written and then attach it 'any attack up to X active?' The One Hex (Accurate -0) is there because the power is innately One Hex large. By simply making it Accurate, I'm limiting it to a single target. Uncontrolled because it doesn't make dramatic sense to spend END every turn after you've walked away from someone, but there are no dice on Darkness.

 

Seeking input. Simpler, clearer, or different ways to silence a single target with a melee (or arrow) attack.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

I've been wrestling with this problem for some time now, myself.

The best solution I've come up with is various martial maneuvers.

My "Scout/Assassin" martial arts package has a few maneuvers in it intended for just such a purpose.

 

A basic choke hold: no problem.

A Crush type maneuver that must follow the chokehold, with the disable element, and can be used with a Weapon Element. This is my necksnap/throatslitting maneuver. Generally speaking, it's at least quasi legal. Because the Choke automatically tagets the neck for no added location damage, it follows that the followup maneuver can do the same. UMA is pretty clear that the disable element doesn't do anything but restrict the targets ability to attack with the disabled limb, in this case the head. I interpret speaking (including verbal spellcasting) as a potential offensive action, and thus rule that the disable element, if successful, prevents the target from speaking...no verbal PRE attacks , no yelling to alert his friends, and no oogity boogity spellcasting.

It seems to be the cheapest way of modeling te effect, and if you want the damage model to reflect somthing approaching the amount of damage that it SHOULD do, you can always write it up as a Killing damage maneuver, and either take lots of negative elements and max out the base DC's, buy 8 targeting PSL's only for that attack and thus gain the loaction benefits for damage, or take Deadly Blow to bump the damage.

 

So, to summarize...

The Disable element, with the optional "hits a specfic location in exchange for no location adjustments to your damage" rule is your friend in this case, IMO.

[steph]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

just one thing if you make a choke hold by definition the person cannot breath so he can talk ............ when the air is block the sound also is block

steph

hope i am clear english not my first language

[transmetahuman]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Howdy' date=' y'all. This is something I've been muddling with for a while. When you're dealing with fantasy hero, one of the first things that non-casters must learn (especially military trained spec-ops) is how to keep other casters from either firing spells, or interfering with your caster. It's common, tactical sense. You don't want the guy going 'woogy woogy woo' to suddenly get off a 6d6 EB [i']Fireball[/i] and cook half the party. You want insurance.

 

You want him quiet. So. I've been futzing about trying to figure out the best way to model a Knife-Fighting throat-strike. In other words, the Knife Fighter dances up to you - or gets behind you - and executes a throat-smash.

 

I originally built this as a Flash (Speech) group. One problem! No such group exists! You cannot 'Flash' someone's ability to talk, which seemed a shame, as it was exactly the effect I was looking for. So my second thought was, once Markdoc explained that you'd have to use Darkness to do it, looked like this:

 

Throat Smash: Darkness (speech group), One Hex (Accurate, -0), Uncontrolled (+1/2); OIF (weapon of opportunity, -1/2), Must do BODY (-1)

 

I couldn't think of a couple of things. One, what's the easy obvious way to attach this to an attack? Make it an NPA (sorry, brain not working well today)? Should I then chart up Darkness as written and then attach it 'any attack up to X active?' The One Hex (Accurate -0) is there because the power is innately One Hex large. By simply making it Accurate, I'm limiting it to a single target. Uncontrolled because it doesn't make dramatic sense to spend END every turn after you've walked away from someone, but there are no dice on Darkness.

 

Seeking input. Simpler, clearer, or different ways to silence a single target with a melee (or arrow) attack.

I'd be sorely tempted to use Flash anyway... maybe with an advantage on it to balance it. If you think of it as the Transmit on the hearing group, it makes sense - after all, if you have a "radio bomb" that scrambles radio, it'd affect both the reception and transmission of radio users, right? Without looking up the thread, I've got to assume there's an explicit rule or FAQ against it though, and that you want to stay within the rules as written.

 

If you're going to use Darkness as above, I'd add 0 END, a link to the attack if it's a superheroic game, and just come up with some plausible rule for determining when the uncontrolled darkness ends. If it's a heroic level game where the spec ops guys don't buy their weapon attacks, I guess you'd make it a Martial Maneuver, but I'm not familiar with how to create those.

[pinecone]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Well in the martial arts a "throat smash" would almost certainly be a killing strike...so how about a Killing strike, always targets the throat (no benefit for location) and add in the "disable' mod if you want...I'm guessing if I crush someones throat (thus killing them) a side effect is they don't say much....

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Well in the martial arts a "throat smash" would almost certainly be a killing strike...so how about a Killing strike' date=' always targets the throat (no benefit for location) and add in the "disable' mod if you want...I'm guessing if I crush someones throat (thus killing them) a side effect is they don't say much....[/quote']

LIke I noted...

There is a technical difficulty with the strike actually killing the target... UMA pretty much stop punches the idea, probably because of abuse potential.

 

Its still do-able, but the strike isn't likely toactually kill someone unless you somehow also buff the damage up... using the Disable element won't, in and of itself, stop the target from breathing, and doesn't inflict any actual game effect beyond preventing the target from using the head to attack with.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

I've been toying with the Flash idea for a few months too. But if you want to with with the Darkness, how about Non-Area-of-Effect (-0 to -1/2 I'd say)?

[pinecone]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

LIke I noted...

There is a technical difficulty with the strike actually killing the target... UMA pretty much stop punches the idea, probably because of abuse potential.

 

Its still do-able, but the strike isn't likely toactually kill someone unless you somehow also buff the damage up... using the Disable element won't, in and of itself, stop the target from breathing, and doesn't inflict any actual game effect beyond preventing the target from using the head to attack with.

 

Well thats what the GM is for if I buy Disable with the express idea of stopping speach it is up to the GM to decide if that works.....as far as fatality yeah if you want'em dead you'll need to buy some dc's...Or make it usable with daggers and use the dagger damage plus the damage boost from the move...most MU types are kind of squishy anyway....

[sbarron]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Seeking input. Simpler' date=' clearer, or different ways to silence a single target with a melee (or arrow) attack.[/quote']I think I'd just do this as a GM call. If a PC hits someone in the throat or mouth for BODY, especially if its significant, I'd just rule that the caster can't incant. Same thing for gestures. No sense in turning into a power what is the expected result of damage.

 

The reason I mention "significant" is that this could easily be considered a stunning/imparing/disabling type thing, too. Like say...

 

Whenever the BODY damage done to a characters mouth/throat area exceeds 1/4 the characters total BODY, after defenses, that character cannot speak for 1d6 phases.

 

Maybe you could allow an EGO or CON roll each phase to see if they recover their voice quicker. For most magic related characters, this means you'd need to due 3 BODY to the mouth/throat to get this effect. If a character can target hit location 4, hit it, then due 3 BODY, I'm totally willing to give them the added benefit of not having their victim speak for a while.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Actually, Presto, the model I have now (Accurate) means taht it is a single target AOE; that's why I built it that way, to reflect that not only is it EASY to nail someone in the throat (and it ain't) but that the effect is ultimately that they're silenced. A bizarre sort of double-bonus, considering Darkness starts its life as a constant AOE.

 

SBarron - that's the problem, saying "you can no longer talk" is a handwave, and while I can certainly build handwaves, it's more important to me to find the mechanically legal version.

[sbarron]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

SBarron - that's the problem' date=' saying "you can no longer talk" is a handwave, and while I can certainly build handwaves, it's more important to me to find the mechanically legal version.[/quote']I think it's more of an extension of the current rules than a flat out handwave, especially if you use the stunning/impairing/disabling version. It makes sense that a character couldn't talk after being hit in the throat, and anyone can hit someone in the throat to prevent them from talking. That's why I think you would be better off modeling this as an effect from damage done to that hit location rather than building a power that must be paid for and attaching it to an attack to simulate this.

 

But, to each his own. Good luck!

[steph]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

he cant talk excuse me

steph

[Frenchman]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Theres always Mind Control: Shut Up!

Some would argue we need to use transform for this.

But I'm pretty sure there is a spell in one of the grimoires written up as darkness to hearing, only to prevent speech (-1, I think)

I'd allow flash to do the same, but without the limitation discount.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Thia, I think you are looking at this backwards. The spell caster took the limitation Incantations, so any reasonable way to make him stop talking should work. It is part of the limitation. You don't need a special attack because the burden should be on the caster not the one trying to stop him.

 

If you want to put a mechanic to it, say the speech is impaired for a number of PHA equal to the BDY done to the neck/throat (this would mirror a Flash attack point-wise). If you have a martial art attack that targets the throat specifically, all the better.

 

Just my two cents.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

I think AmadanNaBriona's suggestion is emminently reasonable. Disabling a limb from attacking is usually more powerful an ability than disabling the voice from speaking. It really isn't much of a hand wave at all, and it's a lot simpler than what I was going to suggest:

 

I do stuff like this all the time. It's a house rule I use for lots of different effects. Use Adjustment Powers - in this case Drain or Suppress - to affect Disadvantages instead of powers (in this case to bestow a Disad temporarily). The rationale is simple: just think of Disads as being "negative powers". If "Unable to Speak" is a 20-point Physical Limitation, then you need 20 points of Drain: Speech, to make someone temporarily mute. 7d6 ought to do it. You can assign partial results if you don't drain it completely, or as the points return, if you want. For example, if a guy has had his voice Drained, and two turns have passed, he's only got 10 points of his voice drained currently, so maybe that could be an 11- roll to be able to use his voice correctly.

 

But the chokehold/disable thing is probably better in this case.

[Lucius]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Thia, I think you are looking at this backwards. The spell caster took the limitation Incantations, so any reasonable way to make him stop talking should work. It is part of the limitation. You don't need a special attack because the burden should be on the caster not the one trying to stop him.

 

If you want to put a mechanic to it, say the speech is impaired for a number of PHA equal to the BDY done to the neck/throat (this would mirror a Flash attack point-wise). If you have a martial art attack that targets the throat specifically, all the better.

 

Just my two cents.

\

 

Ockham's Spoon got it. You don't have to pay for the ability to stop an incantation; the wizard already bought it FOR you, by taking the limitation.

 

A choke hold will prevent speech as long as it's held; even without martial arts, if you make a grab for that location and hold it, I'd give it the same effect. Any strike to the throat should have at least a good chance of making speech impossible for a time.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary pities those who only have one throat....

[prestidigitator]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Actually' date=' Presto, the model I have now (Accurate) means taht it is a single target AOE; that's why I built it that way, to reflect that not only is it EASY to nail someone in the throat (and it ain't) but that the effect is ultimately that they're silenced. A bizarre sort of double-bonus, considering Darkness starts its life as a constant AOE.[/quote']

I know. I was suggesting that in case you wanted to go with a normal attack roll instead of an almost guaranteed one. Either way I guess.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Ockham's Spoon got it. You don't have to pay for the ability to stop an incantation; the wizard already bought it FOR you, by taking the limitation.

 

A choke hold will prevent speech as long as it's held; even without martial arts, if you make a grab for that location and hold it, I'd give it the same effect. Any strike to the throat should have at least a good chance of making speech impossible for a time.

True. But that is also why some kind of Flash or Darkness would work if you didn't want to hold on to the target. If they hadn't bought an Incantations Limitation, then you'd have to do it with something more like Dispel/Drain/Suppress (we're presuming, I think, that the latter approach would get expensive, at least against powerful spells).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

See, this is something I don't agree with. Yes, they bought the limitation Incantations. Most people have it as a natural element of their spell casting. And it's only worth -1/4. While I can see the argument, "the weight is squarely on the shoulders of the caster," I don't buy it. You still a legal mechanic by which to silence someone - anyone - it doesn't matter if they're a caster, or using a radio.

 

So that point, for this argument, is almost moot. I can handwave it - but I'm looking for the pure legal way to do it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

See, this is something I don't agree with. Yes, they bought the limitation Incantations. Most people have it as a natural element of their spell casting. And it's only worth -1/4. While I can see the argument, "the weight is squarely on the shoulders of the caster," I don't buy it. You still a legal mechanic by which to silence someone - anyone - it doesn't matter if they're a caster, or using a radio.

 

So that point, for this argument, is almost moot. I can handwave it - but I'm looking for the pure legal way to do it.

Oh sure! I wasn't saying handwave it. I was saying that the requirements change. Instead of having to combat the power directly, especially by defeating it Active-Point-wise, you now only have to find a way to shut up the caster. Certainly still within the bounds of the system (or common sense in some cases, like perhaps what the effects of a targetted shot to the neck might be).

[Lucius]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Okay, I understand. The mage with incantations is kind of a red-herring. The real question is, "how do you silence a person?"

 

I still say a choke hold (including just a grab targetting the head/throat location) should be able to do it, or have a chance of doing it, and a good disabling strike to the same location does it without having to hang on continuously. A dedicated martial manuever with this specific purpose, bought with the "disable" element, should work if you want to be able to do it reliably and consistently.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Now, try silencing a palindromedary, at BOTH ends....

[Dust Raven]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

I've only skimmed the thread, but I believe the rules allow you to consider the Voice as an additional Sense, being part of the Hearing Group.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

I suppose you might also be able to apply Continuous to a Choke Hold so you don't have to actually hold on after the initial grab....

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

DR: I just reviewed pages 160-162; I didn't see it there, anywhere. Can you give me an immediate point of reference?

 

Presto: Exactly, yes, I would rule that as legal, but it doesn't resolve the question of how you would effectively 'flash' something like that. I know, deep down, if I want to build a Flash (Voice, +1) I could do that, but I'm astounded at how complex this question actually seems to be.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Choke holds & silence attacks (build help)

 

Darkness to Hearing Group 1" radius, Usable As Attack (+1); Only Blocks Speech (-1/2), Only Affects One Target (-1/4)

 

10 AP, 6 RC.

 

This was for a super choke hold and was linked to a continuous NND that must follow grab. For a strike, Uncontrolled would probably be necessary, which would increase the AP to 12 and the RC to 7. But you might be able to save that point by adding in a lim that requires it to be used as part of a Multiple Power Attack.

 

Personally, for a strike I would probably favor the flash method. Either that or using this as a disabled option with the Head and/or Shoulders hit location. You could also possibly redo the hit location chart to allow for neck shots.