Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Actually it's more like saying "If your origin is you are a trained human you can't shoot fire out of your mouth." What are YOU giving trained humans to make up for that limitation?

 

Thge Trained Human whose powers are based on super-skill with stage magic and similar tricks, who includes Fire Eating and Breathing in his repertoire, satisfies me that he can, indeed, be a normal human who breathes fire. He buys an 8d6 Energy Blast, Conic Explosion, no range to simulate this. I charge him [40 x 2/1.5 =] 53 points for this ability. And a mutant firebreather with the same ability pays 53 points. Oh, and the dragon who also breathes an identical cone of fire pays an identical 53 points.

 

Since I am not DISADVANTAGING the character by requiring he pay more points than others for the exact same ability, there is no need to give him an OFFSETTING advantage. There is nothing to offset.

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Thank you for proving my point for me. What you've just proved is it is A LOT more cost effective and you get TONS more benefit from STR. So it is EXACTLY the same thing as what I'm doing. Someone who is a trained normal will get TONS of benefit from 60 STR than with DC's to martial arts. If you deny a trained human to take a 60 STR, you are making them pay more. And let's not forget that I got Hugh's character conception where Normal Guy was made with LESS points than the mutant counterpart, does that all of a sudden make my way better?

 

Now I'm curious, is it ONLY DEX you feel should be without limits? I mean would you allow a trained human to have a 50 CON? What about a 50 PD/ED? Would you allow them to have a 12 SPD and for the concept say, they were just a really good Green Beret that's why they have a 50 CON, 50 PD/ED and a 12 SPD? Is DEX unlimited? I mean could I say that I was an olympic gymnist that's why I have a 60 DEX? If I can't be a trained human with a 60 DEX that means you've imposed a limit somewhere, so what makes your limit better than mine? Just because you've set the benchmarks higher, that makes them better?

 

Deny it all you want, but you've all set limits for what you will and won't accept for a trained normal, you just haven't set DEX as low as I have.

 

Right so as long as it fits your F/X you'll allow it...yeah, that's SO much different than what I'm saying

 

But now let's look at things a little differently. You all say it's "Unfair" to the trained human martial artist, so let's say I change it, trained humans can have whatever DEX they want, it has now ruined my WHOLE system. Why should I limit a scientist EP to human NCM? Would it be fair to them? Why should they be stuck at an 11 DEX and forced to buy Skill levels when Normal Man over there has a 32 DEX and he's just a normal person.

 

First of all, the word biased is correct, though the negative conatation might be a little strong for the conversation, however remember than a conatation while part of normal usage is not actualy part of the definition (Most dictionaries will include the conitation by using words such as "usualy").

 

It's actualy is quite different, see I will talk to my players, see how we can work the concept in, and I will make sure that he does not have to pay extra for the privlage of playing the character he wants to.

 

The point you want to ignore, is the idea that the points do matter.

 

Setting limits is fine. But if you want to be fair they have to be applied to everyone.

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Of course, you've already noted that the games you play in don't incorporate the same bias that you apply in your game world. Are your trained humans in a standard Champs game taking NCM and using levels to make up the difference?

 

 

 

Are you making the Mutant pay more character points for exactly the same build? This is where I, and I believe jmoz, see the issue.

 

 

Basicaly agreed, funny enough the break down on a skill level aproach starts with Lightning Reflex, BTW can someone tell me why we keep bringing up Fast Draw? It is a dex skill, no greater than acrobatics, or any of the others, for that matter I have more characters with Combat Driving than Fast Draw

 

He's already agreed he's being unfair to the build as well, I feel a cornerstone of being a GMn is to be as fair as possible, so I am having a problem understanding how he can intentionaly be unfair to his players

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Thge Trained Human whose powers are based on super-skill with stage magic and similar tricks' date=' who includes Fire Eating and Breathing in his repertoire, satisfies me that he can, indeed, be a normal human who breathes fire. He buys an 8d6 Energy Blast, Conic Explosion, no range to simulate this. I charge him [40 x 2/1.5 ='] 53 points for this ability. And a mutant firebreather with the same ability pays 53 points. Oh, and the dragon who also breathes an identical cone of fire pays an identical 53 points.

 

Since I am not DISADVANTAGING the character by requiring he pay more points than others for the exact same ability, there is no need to give him an OFFSETTING advantage. There is nothing to offset.

 

To be a geek, you got the points wrong, should be (40x1.5/1.5=)40. You were useing AE not explosion.

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

BTW: What post is Checkmates example in, I could not find it...

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

So what you're saying is' date=' combat skills levels suck? It's better to put your points into DEX? This would suggest that DEX is undervalued.[/quote']

 

Each point in dex nets you 1.8333333 points in related abilities...

 

Str, Con also net you more than you spend

 

Technicaly Ego nets extra points, but only mentalists will see the advantage

 

Int breaks even or saves points depending on wether or not INT Skill rolls include PER (I don't allow them to, some GM's do, not sure the offical rule)

 

Pre would break even if not for PRE attacks/Defence

 

Body does not net you extra but it's real cost is 1 per 1, and is important for survivability

 

Com is a useless stat with almost no game value

 

Basicaly all primary characteristics (except body and COM) are bargains. I like to compare them to a fourth framework that is the most restrictive (You get no choice on the abilities put in, it is also why I agree with the no figured characteristics rule with frameworks)

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I really like that approach. It segregates between "DEX which is natural hand-eye co-ordination and agility" and "DEXwhich is shorthand for a variety of overpriced skill levels".

 

Thank you

[David Johnston]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Also to checkmates no difference concept: Yes there is a difference

 

GM says NO to concept, next character will be balanced to other characters

 

GM say YES but at additional cost: Character is not balanced to other characters

 

The truth is, if a player just doesn't show up for a session or gets a solo session his character won't be balanced. And since combat skill levels evidently suck, any character who takes them automatically won't be balanced. And lets not even talk about that guy who switches characters every month. But it is every player's inalienable right to have his character suck every bit as much as he wants it to. Who am I to deny them this freedom?

 

(However it's worth remembering that in my games adjustment powers tended to be "against special effect" and "training" wasn't an available special effect to be drained. And even the exceptions to that rule never affected skill levels. If you got a dozen combat skill levels, you'd be kicking keister and naming names as long you could stand.)

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

The truth is, if a player just doesn't show up for a session or gets a solo session his character won't be balanced. And since combat skill levels evidently suck, any character who takes them automatically won't be balanced. And lets not even talk about that guy who switches characters every month. But it is every player's inalienable right to have his character suck every bit as much as he wants it to. Who am I to deny them this freedom?

 

(However it's worth remembering that in my games adjustment powers tended to be "against special effect" and "training" wasn't an available special effect to be drained. And even the exceptions to that rule never affected skill levels. If you got a dozen combat skill levels, you'd be kicking keister and naming names as long you could stand.)

 

To be fair, skill levels only suck if you are trying to do EVERYTHING dex does, if you only want a great martial artist then 3 point skill levels can be very useful

[Gary]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I wonder why the people who charge double for stats above 20 for comic book normal humans don't charge double for skills beyond 3. It's a lot more rare in real life to find someone with PHDs or black belts in Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Sociology, Psychology, Detective skills, martial arts, and acrobatics than it is to find someone with above 20 in a stat.

[Gary]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

OK, let's start with:

 

- 60 STR uses more END per Phase than equivalent damage with martial arts

 

- 60 STR costs more than equivalent damage with martial arts

 

- 60 STR provides additional PD

 

- 60 STR provides additional REC

 

- 60 STR provides additional STUN

 

- 60 STR provides additional Lifting capability

 

- 60 STR provides additional Leaping capability

 

- 60 STR provides additional Throwing capability

 

In other words, extra STR does not provide identical benefits to a character with martial arts who does the same number of damage classes. The martial artist gains:

 

- Lower END cost

 

- Some CV benefits

 

- several unique combat maneuvers

 

Hardly seems an even match, even if it were in concept for most martial artists to have 60 STR instead of a significantly lower STR plus Martial Maneuvers and Damage Classes. Some people actually build to a concept; not to maximum point efficiency.

 

You may feel that 21+ is "superhuman" in your campaign, but your campaign is not everybody else's. Many, maybe most, GMs are not going to consider that the break point for truly superhuman levels, especially in a Champions campaign (and this entire discussion is about Champions, not some other genre). Champions officially considers 30+ to be superhuman. Not 21+ unless the character takes the NCM Disad.

 

I as a GM wouldn't let a "trained human" concept exceed 30 DEX anymore than I'd let him buy 60 STR, but I would let him buy 30 in either Characteristic. You've been throwing around a 32 DEX straw man most of this thread when most GMs in fact probably wouldn't allow a 32 DEX to call himself a "normal" man in the first place. Of course, I wouldn't give either Batman or Captain America a DEX in the 30's either. They'd both be in the upper 20's with multiple Skill Levels; and both with a 6 SPD if I built them. Fast. Not superhuman.

 

You can normalize both Str and martial arts damage classes to get a fair comparison.

 

2 DCs and +2 PD costs 10 pts and get you:

+2d6 damage

+2 PD

ability to add to Martial Flash, KAs, and NNDs.

 

+10 Str 0 End and subtracting 5 Stun costs 10 pts and gets you:

+2d6 damage

+2 PD

+2 Rec

+2" Leap

X4 Lift

+1d6 free "Damage Shield" from Casual Strength limited to Grabs/Entangles

Ability to use the environment for free Area Effects and Range if Str is high enough.

A limited Constant aspect

 

Str wins big time.

[Gary]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

The truth is, if a player just doesn't show up for a session or gets a solo session his character won't be balanced. And since combat skill levels evidently suck, any character who takes them automatically won't be balanced. And lets not even talk about that guy who switches characters every month. But it is every player's inalienable right to have his character suck every bit as much as he wants it to. Who am I to deny them this freedom?

 

(However it's worth remembering that in my games adjustment powers tended to be "against special effect" and "training" wasn't an available special effect to be drained. And even the exceptions to that rule never affected skill levels. If you got a dozen combat skill levels, you'd be kicking keister and naming names as long you could stand.)

 

Draining Dex works much better against low dex high skill level characters than high dex low skill level characters.

 

Character A 15 Dex 10 skill levels

Character B 30 Dex

 

Scenario 1: Both get drained from 1-14 pts of Dex. Both lose the exact same amount of CV. Neither side is advantaged or disadvantaged.

 

Scenario 2: Both get drained 15-29 pts of Dex. Character B is much better off. Character A has to roll 9- or worse to be able to do any physical action. Character B still has full freedom of movement.

[OzMike]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Just posting as I read, so forgive me if someone has already said this...

 

BUT: How would said agents rank up vs Normal guy on street' date=' maybe one or two OCV greater? no speed advantage, this might be how you want your world, great, but it is not how alot of people feel about it[/quote']

 

Are we making Normal Guy about 8 in base stats with a SPD of 2?

 

How about spending points on the 11DEX/2SPD pleb agent this way if you want to keep SPDs and DEXs low:

2pts +1" running

4pts +2 OCV w/Chosen Attack

9pts Teamwork at +3 (14-)

 

That gives him a 6 OCV and a 4" half move.

 

And put laser sights on his weapon - that's worth 2 OCV or so, so now he's got an 8 OCV... and remember that weapons can be more powerful than the guys who wield them, so lets say that they are about 8DC or so.

 

And then have the plebs co-ordinate in groups of 5 or so and things get nasty for Mr Super. He's at -4 DCV versus 8 OCV (So lets say 12 OCV effective just to be nice). And have them take cover to fight and have them fight smart so that they get -4 to their attackers OCV.

 

So you now have a bunch of 5 plebs with effectively 12 OCV, 8DCV, and 8 DC. Sure, they might have 11 DEX and 2 SPD, but that doesn't make them ...umm... 'undangerous'? It just means that you're giving your supers a fighting chance when they attack 20 of them. Sure, they'll drop if you get to them.

 

And it makes Defensive Maneuver VERY valuable. Especially if you limit it to martial artists.

 

I never thought VIPER 5 teams needed beefing up - my players always had trouble with them. Even when I had them use weaker weapons.

 

....

 

What was my point anyway?

 

Ahh yes...

 

That 11DEX/2SPD agents can be pretty tough if they're trained and equipped right.

 

At least I think it was my point. It is now.

[OzMike]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Again, forgive me, posting as I read, blah blah blah

 

Thge Trained Human whose powers are based on super-skill with stage magic and similar tricks' date=' who includes Fire Eating and Breathing in his repertoire, satisfies me that he can, indeed, be a normal human who breathes fire. He buys an 8d6 Energy Blast, Conic Explosion, no range to simulate this. I charge him [40 x 2/1.5 ='] 53 points for this ability. And a mutant firebreather with the same ability pays 53 points. Oh, and the dragon who also breathes an identical cone of fire pays an identical 53 points.

 

Since I am not DISADVANTAGING the character by requiring he pay more points than others for the exact same ability, there is no need to give him an OFFSETTING advantage. There is nothing to offset.

 

Umm, wouldn't he also need to have sort of focii to do the fire breathing trick? So he actually pays less than the dragon, unless the dragon is fooling us all too

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Again, forgive me, posting as I read, blah blah blah

 

 

 

Umm, wouldn't he also need to have sort of focii to do the fire breathing trick? So he actually pays less than the dragon, unless the dragon is fooling us all too

 

 

Probably, but depending on the player maybe not (He might amazingly never loose it). But even if he did have to take foci he would be appropriatetly compenasated for the loss of points, in other words while because of the concept he looses something he does gain something else (More points to spend). The problem I have been having is that the character is loosing something and not getting compensated for it based on the concept.

[Checkmate]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Okay, I'm dropping everything from the argument but cost and "fairness", since that seems to be the only valid argument left.

 

Let's talk about fairness for a minute shall we? What you have all ignored in my last post is that allowing a trained human to go past NCM effectively ruins the whole world for everyone else. So you're asking me if it's fair for one player with a concept that got EVERYTHING he wanted in that concept, and the character plays exactly the way the player wanted, you're asking me if it's fair to make him pay extra to make sure my game world stays consistant and enjoyable for every other player? Hmm, yep I guess you'll have to call me unfair.

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

The truth is, if a player just doesn't show up for a session or gets a solo session his character won't be balanced. And since combat skill levels evidently suck, any character who takes them automatically won't be balanced. And lets not even talk about that guy who switches characters every month. But it is every player's inalienable right to have his character suck every bit as much as he wants it to. Who am I to deny them this freedom?

 

(However it's worth remembering that in my games adjustment powers tended to be "against special effect" and "training" wasn't an available special effect to be drained. And even the exceptions to that rule never affected skill levels. If you got a dozen combat skill levels, you'd be kicking keister and naming names as long you could stand.)

 

 

Thus you have made a balancing effort to compensate for the extra points spent, that is fine, Depending on how often you use adjustment powers, especialy based on origin instead of F/X (How often do you see drain alien powers, Drain Mutant Powers, Drain Magical Powers, note these are all origins not F/Xs)

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Okay, I'm dropping everything from the argument but cost and "fairness", since that seems to be the only valid argument left.

 

Let's talk about fairness for a minute shall we? What you have all ignored in my last post is that allowing a trained human to go past NCM effectively ruins the whole world for everyone else. So you're asking me if it's fair for one player with a concept that got EVERYTHING he wanted in that concept, and the character plays exactly the way the player wanted, you're asking me if it's fair to make him pay extra to make sure my game world stays consistant and enjoyable for every other player? Hmm, yep I guess you'll have to call me unfair.

 

So to summorise (sp)

 

A) you admit that normal guy has to spend more points in your game to be as competent as mutant guy?

 

You think that is fair because it does not interfere with the way you set up your world (Which btw contradicts your statement on lets keep this about being fair and cost, you have brought in your views on how a world should be)

 

Let me see if I can make you see this another way, on a conceptual level:

 

(Don't answer based on your system)Should an equal amount of points spent give a character an equal amount of abilities, regardless of origin? Yes or No

 

Does your system do this? You have already answered this with a no it does not

[OzMike]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Probably' date=' but depending on the player maybe not (He might amazingly never loose it). But even if he did have to take foci he would be appropriatetly compenasated for the loss of points, in other words while because of the concept he looses something he does gain something else (More points to spend). The problem I have been having is that the character is loosing something and not getting compensated for it based on the concept.[/quote']

 

But according to the way things have been discussed it seems that its not an issue in that campaign. Plus the GM has stated (I think) that normals are his favourite character archetype, and in my experience having the GM onside goes a loooong way;)

 

And I may have missed it but if this NCM thing is a consistent thing across the whole campaign for 'norms', what's the issue? These numbers on the page can be fiddled with by talented makers to make a character who can really mix it with the tough lads, or you can keep it simple.

 

Plus a good GM will cater for all character types and power levels. To use some example characters mentioned earlier if Batman and the Justice League were fighting Doc Destroyer and his minions (sure, a powered up version of the Doc I reckon), Supes might go straight for Doc, but some other equally dangerous opponent that Supes couldn't fight would be taken by Bats.... lets say someone Supes couldn't fight like... say... Krytonite Katana Ninja Guy. Bats would get creamed by Doc, but his player would be satisfied because if he doesn't do his job and take out Krytonite Katana Ninja Guy, then Supes is taken out and both Supes and Bats get wasted.

 

And then Bats could take the Katana "just in case" someone gets too big for their big blue britches:eg:

 

Wow - drifted off my own thread:)

 

ummm...

 

Plus I must say having played a Martial Artist with NCM surrounded by supers it was mighty satisfying to always hold my own. I couldn't fly, but I had 50 pts of Martial Arts and 6 levels.

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

But according to the way things have been discussed it seems that its not an issue in that campaign. Plus the GM has stated (I think) that normals are his favourite character archetype, and in my experience having the GM onside goes a loooong way;)

 

And I may have missed it but if this NCM thing is a consistent thing across the whole campaign for 'norms', what's the issue? These numbers on the page can be fiddled with by talented makers to make a character who can really mix it with the tough lads, or you can keep it simple.

 

Plus a good GM will cater for all character types and power levels. To use some example characters mentioned earlier if Batman and the Justice League were fighting Doc Destroyer and his minions (sure, a powered up version of the Doc I reckon), Supes might go straight for Doc, but some other equally dangerous opponent that Supes couldn't fight would be taken by Bats.... lets say someone Supes couldn't fight like... say... Krytonite Katana Ninja Guy. Bats would get creamed by Doc, but his player would be satisfied because if he doesn't do his job and take out Krytonite Katana Ninja Guy, then Supes is taken out and both Supes and Bats get wasted.

 

And then Bats could take the Katana "just in case" someone gets too big for their big blue britches:eg:

 

Wow - drifted off my own thread:)

 

ummm...

 

Plus I must say having played a Martial Artist with NCM surrounded by supers it was mighty satisfying to always hold my own. I couldn't fly, but I had 50 pts of Martial Arts and 6 levels.

 

 

The issue is basicaly this: Limiting by origin, basicaly saying if you want to play this type of character then you will be penalised for it. Yes it does cover all character types, however do to the flow of the conversation it has concentrated on two types(Skilled norms vs Mutants), but it is broader than that. Basicaly the question is Should a character who's power is based around characteristics be the only ones who get to use the amazing points savings of characteristics (And yes almost all primary characteristics are a bargain).

 

One solution already mentioned a number of times is to let the skilled normal buy a characteristic power called "Intense Training", maybe with a required lim or two. Basicaly it is about ensuring the character who has a reason to have the higher abilities does not have to pay an unfair amount.

 

As to it being the GM's favorite character type, in some ways that can actualy hurt (A few years ago I had a PA character, the GM's favorite type, anytime I did something different from the way he would have he had a major problem with it, finaly I droped the PA and made an archer), not saying checkmate is doing it, but it does illustrate a point

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Thank you for proving my point for me. What you've just proved is it is A LOT more cost effective and you get TONS more benefit from STR. So it is EXACTLY the same thing as what I'm doing. Someone who is a trained normal will get TONS of benefit from 60 STR than with DC's to martial arts. If you deny a trained human to take a 60 STR' date=' you are making them pay more. And let's not forget that I got Hugh's character conception where Normal Guy was made with LESS points than the mutant counterpart, does that all of a sudden make my way better?[/quote']Many, probably most, character concepts preclude a 60 STR even if it is hypothetically more efficient (and I disagree it is. It provides more abilities, but it costs more). I happen to run a high SPD, high DEX character. It is emphatically not in her concept to be able to lift tanks and yank bank vaults off their hinges. A 60 STR would also give her too high a STUN and REC too; plus her defenses would be too high by default. In other words, I can't build my character to her concept (fast, agile, and relatively frail) if I have to buy the "more efficient" build.

 

Now I'm curious, is it ONLY DEX you feel should be without limits? I mean would you allow a trained human to have a 50 CON? What about a 50 PD/ED? Would you allow them to have a 12 SPD and for the concept say, they were just a really good Green Beret that's why they have a 50 CON, 50 PD/ED and a 12 SPD? Is DEX unlimited? I mean could I say that I was an olympic gymnist that's why I have a 60 DEX? If I can't be a trained human with a 60 DEX that means you've imposed a limit somewhere, so what makes your limit better than mine? Just because you've set the benchmarks higher, that makes them better?

 

Deny it all you want, but you've all set limits for what you will and won't accept for a trained normal, you just haven't set DEX as low as I have.

 

Right so as long as it fits your F/X you'll allow it...yeah, that's SO much different than what I'm saying

 

But now let's look at things a little differently. You all say it's "Unfair" to the trained human martial artist, so let's say I change it, trained humans can have whatever DEX they want, it has now ruined my WHOLE system. Why should I limit a scientist EP to human NCM? Would it be fair to them? Why should they be stuck at an 11 DEX and forced to buy Skill levels when Normal Man over there has a 32 DEX and he's just a normal person.

They shouldn't be forced to do either. Hero already defines what is superhuman, and it ain't 21+. It's 30+. If a player actually presented a proposed PC with all 30's in their Primary Characteristics, I'd still look at them with a raised eyebrow no matter what their character's claimed origin. I look for balance within the campaign; not just raw numbers.

 

I certainly don't know where you got the impression I think DEX should without limits at all, much less the only Characteristic without limits. I've certainly made no such statement in this thread (or elsewhere). All I've said is that if a PC has superhuman Characteristics as defined by the rules then they're no longer entitled to claim to be merely a Trained Human. He just became a Trained Superhuman; as for example the original Captain America after taking the Super Soldier Serum was.

 

I wouldn't allow a PC with 50 CON, 50 PD/ED and a 12 SPD because he'd be unbalancing in my campaign regardless of whether he claimed his abilities sprang from being a trained human, wearing powered armor, having mutation, or prolonged exposure to radioactive Cheez Whiz™. He'd step on the MAs' and the brick's schticks. It's not about numbers, it's about game balance. And making Batman with the same SPD and/or DEX as a Green Beret is just as damaging to game balance as allowing him a 45 DEX or 50 STR, and at least he demonstrably doesn't lift tanks. Champions is a game about supers; the trained normal is already at a disadvantage because he doesn't have superpowers. They don't need further penalties. The only difference with STR is it's the only characteristic that's actually quantifiable in real world terms - "You can lift X amount." But what does an 18 CON really mean? A 7 SPD? A 20 REC? They're relevant only in relation to other characters' Chartacteristics. The only thing we know for certain is that, all other things being equal, a character with a 20 CON is slightly more durable/tougher than one with a 19 CON. Beyond that the two numbers are meaningless.

 

You make a far stronger case for DEX inflation in Hero than you do for SPD inflation. IMO it's a mistake to conflate the two.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

You can normalize both Str and martial arts damage classes to get a fair comparison.

 

2 DCs and +2 PD costs 10 pts and get you:

+2d6 damage

+2 PD

ability to add to Martial Flash, KAs, and NNDs.

 

+10 Str 0 End and subtracting 5 Stun costs 10 pts and gets you:

+2d6 damage

+2 PD

+2 Rec

+2" Leap

X4 Lift

+1d6 free "Damage Shield" from Casual Strength limited to Grabs/Entangles

Ability to use the environment for free Area Effects and Range if Str is high enough.

A limited Constant aspect

 

Str wins big time.

Which was precisely the point I was making. He was claiming STR and martial arts were equivalent.

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

In all fairness to checkmate, the 20+ or 30+ is a world building issue, what Hero has published on this issue is the guidelines for there worlds, not a hard and fast rule.

[OzMike]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Which was precisely the point I was making. He was claiming STR and martial arts were equivalent.

 

His Kung Fu is strong...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

You can normalize both Str and martial arts damage classes to get a fair comparison.

 

2 DCs and +2 PD costs 10 pts and get you:

+2d6 damage

+2 PD

ability to add to Martial Flash, KAs, and NNDs.

 

+10 Str 0 End and subtracting 5 Stun costs 10 pts and gets you:

+2d6 damage

+2 PD

+2 Rec

+2" Leap

X4 Lift

+1d6 free "Damage Shield" from Casual Strength limited to Grabs/Entangles

Ability to use the environment for free Area Effects and Range if Str is high enough.

A limited Constant aspect

 

Str wins big time.

 

This requires you to accept that +2 REC (4 points), +2 leap (2 points), and the other four abilities (points uncertain) is more valuable than the extra DC's in Martial Flash, KAs, and NNDs (value also uncertain). Buying +2 DC's (+1 to the KA) in a Multipower would require you to raise the base MP points by 10, and pay 1 for each Ultra slot (0.5 for the KA), or 12.5 points. The value of STR's other abilities must be worth 7 points to make it the (slightly) better bargain.

 

Of course, if the MA doesn't have all three special martial attacks, or if he has some others [there are two standard Martial NND's, plus all those "move and attack" maneuvers in UMA, for example] the theoretical cost varies.

 

About the only time we have a clear and certain bargain price is when both builds grant the exact same abilities.