Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

[Markdoc]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

OTOH' date=' Michael Jordan's skill with a batarang is nothing to write home about either. [/quote']

 

Hmm. I see the secret ID is holding up pretty well.

 

cheers, Mark

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

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[OddHat]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Would a brick be a good fighter without their Strength?

 

Superman, No, so no martial arts for him.

Thor, yes, as he is both strong and skilled.

 

Superman was trained in boxing by Mohamed Ali, and has proven able when without his powers to overpower both normal criminals and minor super-villains in HtH combat. So, martial arts for him, depending (as is true with any comic book character) on the writer and the era.

 

Poor Supes, gets no respect post Crisis. I blame Richard Donner's Super Savior, John Byrne for cutting the whimsy out of the character, and the nature of fandom.

[Markdoc]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Speaking of things long dead - in one of the first posts you said

 

And few if any FH or PH games are going to permit "martial arts Multipowers" to be bought.

 

I meant to answer - but never got around to it before the thread moved on. But now, the sudden revivification of the thread reminded me

 

Anyway, I've been using "martial arts multipowers" in FH games for ... oh ... a couple of decades now. They work great. At heroic levels, it works better than the standard system, which is only really balanced/fun in that sweet spot around 20-40 points. More than that is almost always a waste of points, less than that gives you only a few maneuvers which can be both unbalanced (since you can get a lot for your points if you only buy a couple of maneuvers) and yet unsatisfying from a game perspective (since you usually get 3-4 maneuvers, which feels a bit thin).

 

In a Supers game, if ElectroLad can have an "electric powers" MP, I can't see that it's unbalancing for FistLass to have a "Punching, Kicking, Bone-breaking and Eye-gouging" MP. Likewise, in an FH game if Mong the Mysterious can have an "Arcane spells" MP, it hasn't proved unbalancing for Thrud the Massive to have a "Barbarian Rage" MP and Murata the Enigmatic to have a "Flashing Sword" MP.

 

In the current game we have three highly effective fighters - one with a martial arts MP, one with an exotic attack ("autofire" to represent a whirling two sword attack) and one who's just tough and fast (spent his points on STR, DEX and SPD). They're all balanced. Lamoniak (MP guy) can generate more damage, higher DCV or higher OCV than either of the other two - but only one of those things at at a time. Bellona - the two sword lass - can't match the best of Lamoniak's numbers, but she rarely matches his worst, either, goes before him and can dish out hurt on multiple foes. Aquila (the shortsword guy) didn't bother with any of that - he does less damage, but he's got a high DEX and for a long time was the party's only SPD 4. With the purchase of some levels, he consistently fights as well as the other two.

 

In the last campaign, which ran for several years of weekly play, we also had a mix of martial arts MP and non MP fighters and they also scaled well. In the game before, which went for 2 years or so the same. So, yeah, balance doesn't seem to be an issue.

 

It takes a teeny bit more work to set up, but once you're used to the design and play freedom of MP martial arts, going back to standard martial arts rules is little like putting on the ski boots you had a good workout in the day before: terribly restricting and it reminds you of all the places it hurt in before.

 

cheers, Mark

[Vestnik]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

FistLass

 

Must... drive... horrible... image... from... mind...

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Martial arts is cool. That's my only defense.

 

I agree 100%. I just plain like making characters with martial arts.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Superman was trained in boxing by Mohamed Ali, and has proven able when without his powers to overpower both normal criminals and minor super-villains in HtH combat. So, martial arts for him, depending (as is true with any comic book character) on the writer and the era.

 

Poor Supes, gets no respect post Crisis. I blame Richard Donner's Super Savior, John Byrne for cutting the whimsy out of the character, and the nature of fandom.

 

Didn't the pre-Crisis Supes know some kind of Kryptonian martial arts? I seem to recall a Kryptonan woman named Faora who also knew it, and used them to beat him one-eyed.

[Korvar]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I seem to recall Pre-Crisis Lois was an expert in Klukor (which was what the art was called, I think).

 

Current Supes should have a bit of wrestling, a bit of boxing, a bit of American Football. Typical Jock stuff.

[OddHat]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Didn't the pre-Crisis Supes know some kind of Kryptonian martial arts? I seem to recall a Kryptonan woman named Faora who also knew it' date=' and used them to beat him one-eyed.[/quote']

 

I seem to recall Pre-Crisis Lois was an expert in Klukor (which was what the art was called, I think).

 

Current Supes should have a bit of wrestling, a bit of boxing, a bit of American Football. Typical Jock stuff.

 

Yup, that as well. Can't remember the name.

 

Pre-crisis Supes was all that and a bowl of soup. Lots of critics take pot shots based on that, yet when another all-that and a bowl of soup character rolls around they salivate. Strange creatures, we fans.

[Remjin]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Speaking of things long dead - in one of the first posts you said

 

 

 

I meant to answer - but never got around to it before the thread moved on. But now, the sudden revivification of the thread reminded me

 

Anyway, I've been using "martial arts multipowers" in FH games for ... oh ... a couple of decades now. They work great. At heroic levels, it works better than the standard system, which is only really balanced/fun in that sweet spot around 20-40 points. More than that is almost always a waste of points, less than that gives you only a few maneuvers which can be both unbalanced (since you can get a lot for your points if you only buy a couple of maneuvers) and yet unsatisfying from a game perspective (since you usually get 3-4 maneuvers, which feels a bit thin).

 

In a Supers game, if ElectroLad can have an "electric powers" MP, I can't see that it's unbalancing for FistLass to have a "Punching, Kicking, Bone-breaking and Eye-gouging" MP. Likewise, in an FH game if Mong the Mysterious can have an "Arcane spells" MP, it hasn't proved unbalancing for Thrud the Massive to have a "Barbarian Rage" MP and Murata the Enigmatic to have a "Flashing Sword" MP.

 

In the current game we have three highly effective fighters - one with a martial arts MP, one with an exotic attack ("autofire" to represent a whirling two sword attack) and one who's just tough and fast (spent his points on STR, DEX and SPD). They're all balanced. Lamoniak (MP guy) can generate more damage, higher DCV or higher OCV than either of the other two - but only one of those things at at a time. Bellona - the two sword lass - can't match the best of Lamoniak's numbers, but she rarely matches his worst, either, goes before him and can dish out hurt on multiple foes. Aquila (the shortsword guy) didn't bother with any of that - he does less damage, but he's got a high DEX and for a long time was the party's only SPD 4. With the purchase of some levels, he consistently fights as well as the other two.

 

In the last campaign, which ran for several years of weekly play, we also had a mix of martial arts MP and non MP fighters and they also scaled well. In the game before, which went for 2 years or so the same. So, yeah, balance doesn't seem to be an issue.

 

It takes a teeny bit more work to set up, but once you're used to the design and play freedom of MP martial arts, going back to standard martial arts rules is little like putting on the ski boots you had a good workout in the day before: terribly restricting and it reminds you of all the places it hurt in before.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I've always just used the martial arts stuff, but now that you bring this up again, any chance of going into more detail about it and how its done? I've seen some from the various hero books, and I kind of get it as a whole, but I'd like to see different takes on this to really get a feel for it. I've had characters before that really should have had them, as the normal MA rules were too restrictive for that particular character and the way he was built.

[Corven_Ren]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Superman was trained in boxing by Mohamed Ali.

 

Didn't he also recieve some boxing training from Wildcat as well..(I thought I had read that somewhere.)

[braincraft]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Didn't he also recieve some boxing training from Wildcat as well..(I thought I had read that somewhere.)

 

Comic book continuity is like biblical canon; you can justify almost any assertation if you dig deep enough.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Didn't the pre-Crisis Supes know some kind of Kryptonian martial arts? I seem to recall a Kryptonan woman named Faora who also knew it' date=' and used them to beat him one-eyed.[/quote']

 

IIRC, in current continuity, when Superman visited that pocket-universe alternate version of Krypton, someone there taught him Kryptonian martial arts. So he has that going for him again (until the next retcon, of course).

[Vondy]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Anyway, I've been using "martial arts multipowers" in FH games for ... oh ... a couple of decades now. They work great. At heroic levels, it works better than the standard system, which is only really balanced/fun in that sweet spot around 20-40 points.

 

I would just like to add that I also prefer martial arts multipowers for superheroic games, which is why I don't always agree with the "if martial artists don't have a high speed the brick will hose them" crowd. Based on one method of building martial artists what they say is true, but using a martial arts multipower can balance the scales when there isn't as big a speed gap.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I would just like to add that I also prefer martial arts multipowers for superheroic games' date=' which is why I don't always agree with the "if martial artists don't have a high speed the brick will hose them" crowd. Based on one method of building martial artists what they say is true, but using a martial arts multipower can balance the scales when there isn't as big a speed gap.[/quote']I've heard these martial arts multipowers mentioned before, of course, but I don't think I've seen an actual build of one. Could you post an example MP?

[Vondy]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I've heard these martial arts multipowers mentioned before' date=' of course, but I don't think I've seen an actual build of one. Could you post an example MP?[/quote']

 

 

Yes, but it won't be immediate.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Yes' date=' but it won't be immediate.[/quote']NP. I'd just like to see a sample build.

 

I assume some maneuvers (such as Throws) still have to be done with regular old Martial Arts?

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I would just like to add that I also prefer martial arts multipowers for superheroic games' date=' which is why I don't always agree with the "if martial artists don't have a high speed the brick will hose them" crowd. Based on one method of building martial artists what they say is true, but using a martial arts multipower can balance the scales when there isn't as big a speed gap.[/quote']

 

I personaly prefer a mix, a small MA PAckage (I like an attack like Legsweep or Martial Punch, Martial block or dodge, and Martial throw)

 

Some skill levels

 

And then a MP with mixed attacks that can be used with the MA package

[Markdoc]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I've heard these martial arts multipowers mentioned before' date=' of course, but I don't think I've seen an actual build of one. Could you post an example MP?[/quote']

 

Sure.

 

If you go here:

http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/martialarts.html

 

you can see all the standard maneuvers built using a multipower, plus comments on design philosophy. Note that these are for my own game where STR costs 2 points per point and HA 5 points per dice, so some of the costs are higher than one might expect. Most of them are based around HA, HKA and levels, not unsurprisingly. These are not, obviously, exotic attacks, but sometimes all you want to do is hit someone. Maneuvers like throw or legsweep that you mentioned are simply modeled using the already existing "grab and throw" rules. The only thing that isn't simulated are the various optional "crippling attacks" from UMA, which I think are better modeled using powers.

 

If you go here:

http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/Sengoku/hayashi.html

you can see a FH character with a sword-based martial art including a couple of exotic maneuvers, and here:

http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/Sengoku/yobo_niide.html

You can see another FH character with an unarmed style. Here:

http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/Sengoku/100ptMaster_Martial_Artist.html

you can see a generic martial artist NPC for my old FH game with a selection of packages to represent different styles.

And finally, if you go here, you can see a high point FH character (253 points) with a variety of exotic attacks

http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/character_archive/fongsaiyuk.html

 

One of the rationales for this was to replace the standard system, since all too often I saw powerful martial arts characters who bought a martial arts package, which they almost never used - since they also bought a multipower of attacks, which were generally more powerful/useful.

 

cheers, Mark

[OddHat]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

NP. I'd just like to see a sample build.

 

I assume some maneuvers (such as Throws) still have to be done with regular old Martial Arts?

 

Here's one I did 3 or 4 years ago, since then modified by Killer Shrike. I'd probably do it a bit differently now, but I still like the build:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/EnforcersINC/Characters/King%20of%20Kung%20Fu%20.HTML

[Markdoc]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Must... drive... horrible... image... from... mind...

 

:D

 

Mark

[Vondy]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

NP. I'd just like to see a sample build.

 

I assume some maneuvers (such as Throws) still have to be done with regular old Martial Arts?

 

The main issue is the maneuver elements.

 

There are a few options:

 

1. You could still purchase maneuvers that have those elements attached.
   
2. You could allow a player to tack the element onto a power as an Adder (since their discrete cost is included in the UMA).
   
3. You could by the discrete elements as naked adders for the MP (I would req. the variable FX advantage be tacked on to represent numerous maneuvers they could be used with (still dirt cheap)).
   
4. You can use a standard maneuver that contains the element (reg. throw) in conjunction with the build. The issue here is the CV modifiers, but when the cost of a multipower slot is considered it isn't much of an onus to include PSLs to offset the penalties(compound power).

Our method was to allow 2 or 3.

 

EDIT: I really like markdocs maneuver simulations, esp. for grappling maneuvers, etc. However, for many NND or KA effects I'd just go ahead and use the power to build it (in a superheroic game).

[Vondy]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I personaly prefer a mix, a small MA PAckage (I like an attack like Legsweep or Martial Punch, Martial block or dodge, and Martial throw)

 

Some skill levels

 

And then a MP with mixed attacks that can be used with the MA package

 

Also a viable approach (though not the one we usually saw).

 

However, do not forget special defenses in your MA multipower - it can drive bricks to distraction and keep you from being flat.