Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

[wylodmayer]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

This conversation - who should have skill levels and martial arts maneuvers and how many - came up when I started converting a long running Marvel game into HERO. The main concern from the players' perspective was making sure that they didn't accidentally wind up with "too many" skill levels or martial arts maneuvers. I mean, if Captain America has (x) points in maneuvers, then the pretty-good-but-not-great martial-artist PC shouldn't have (x*2). We had to establish some guidelines for how many points in maneuvers *usually* corollated to how many levels, etc.

 

I delved back into the old first edition Ultimate Martial Artist, which suggested that a "black belt" level character (probably about the minimum you'd consider to be actually combat worthy) had about ten to twelve points in maneuvers, and every additional maneuver or two skill levels after that represented another "grade" of advancement. This worked well enough for me, and I came up with a rough progression:

 

1-2 applicable skill levels: basic training

3-4: solid training or basic training and experience

5-6: solid training and experience

7-8: Legendary

9-10: Godlike

 

I came up with similar progressions to give a rough estimate of how many DCs, DCV Only Levels, and points in maneuvers a given character would have, based on his combat-training backstory (anyone interested can email me about them - I won't post them here). I had to enforce the levels pretty strictly, as they are cheap and players want them, but can't normally justify going directly from 1 skill level applicable to 6 in the course of a few months of game time. It may seem arbitrary, but I really wanted to establish "benchmarks" of how good certain characters were, and my players and I agreed that good roleplaying demanded that the PCs not exceed those benchmarks when it didn't fit their background, even if they could afford it in Character Points.

 

There are two side points to this, in my campaign at least. One is that some characters who don't NEED lots of levels and maneuvers, like Thor, have them. He is a highly trained warrior, and even though he is still stronger than most things even in Asgard, the kinds of enemies he fought would have demanded he learn some technique rather than JUST relying on high strength. Likewise, Hercules is supposed to be some master combatant, even though he doesn't really NEED to be with his enormous STR. Both had foes strong enough to force them to do more than just be bricks - they had to be canny fighters, as well.

 

The other is that I was a real hardcase about LEARNING levels and maneuvers. One of our characters, a brick called Orion, wanted to learn some combat skills real bad in order to up his efficiency. But there was really no one he could reasonably practice with; all the martial artists in the group would have taken significant BODY damage just from his Casual STR! I let him buy one maneuver and one skill level just from reading books and doing kata by himself, but nothing else until he found a way to train with someone who could really get in there and spar with him. Incidentally, he resolved this by getting trained by Colossus. Under my theory of how this all works, Colossus was actually pretty scary, as he could train in martial arts in human form, and shift to his steel form to apply his techniques with superstrength... or, in this case, to teach someone who couldn't shift between a strong and non-strong form.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I delved back into the old first edition Ultimate Martial Artist, which suggested that a "black belt" level character (probably about the minimum you'd consider to be actually combat worthy) had about ten to twelve points in maneuvers, and every additional maneuver or two skill levels after that represented another "grade" of advancement. This worked well enough for me, and I came up with a rough progression:

 

1-2 applicable skill levels: basic training

3-4: solid training or basic training and experience

5-6: solid training and experience

7-8: Legendary

9-10: Godlike

 

I came up with similar progressions to give a rough estimate of how many DCs, DCV Only Levels, and points in maneuvers a given character would have, based on his combat-training backstory (anyone interested can email me about them - I won't post them here). I had to enforce the levels pretty strictly, as they are cheap and players want them, but can't normally justify going directly from 1 skill level applicable to 6 in the course of a few months of game time. It may seem arbitrary, but I really wanted to establish "benchmarks" of how good certain characters were, and my players and I agreed that good roleplaying demanded that the PCs not exceed those benchmarks when it didn't fit their background, even if they could afford it in Character Points.

I do something similar with my PC even with my non-martial arts Skills - I first buy her a Familiarity with the Skill, then after a few game sessions or perhaps six to twelve months "in game" time I'll buy it up to the full CHAR-based level to represent her first learning the basics, then getting some experience using the new skill. (It took her nearly two years of real time to get a Perk: Private Pilot's License and also full-fledged Combat Pilot after buying TF: Light Aircraft.)

 

Does your ranking system for MAs include Damage Classes as part of the formula as a character learns to hit harder and/or do the maneuver better with practice? How would you classify a PC with 54 CP in Martial Arts alone (10 Maneuvers, 3 Damage Classes, 4 Weapon Elements) plus 3 Weapon Familiarities? Better than a typical black belt, I'm sure?

[Gary]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

ACK! 12.5 is over - the attacks are all no range! But the cost is more than you seem to credit. CONSIDER:

 

30 Multipower: 45 point base, no range

 

3 u 9d6 Flash, no range

3 u 3d6 RKA, no range

3 u 4 1/2d6 EB, NND, no range

 

39 points

 

40 Multipower: 60 point base, no range

4 u 12d6 Flash, no range

4 u 4d6 RKA, no range

4 u 6d6 EB, NND, no range

 

52 points

 

3DC's for 13 points means 2 DC's for 8 2/3 points (not the 12.5 I initially estimated). I'm using RKA due to the no range issue, and adding full DC's as STR would normally add to an HKA. [As I said, whenever the abilities aren't exactly identical, we muddy the waters to some extent.]

 

Martial Artists in my games have never felt like they were second class heroes compared to the Bricks.

 

Since you have to amortize it after including the base attack (since you can only use one at a time), the real cost should be:

 

40 Multipower: 60 point base, no range

4 u 12d6 Flash, no range

4 u 4d6 RKA, no range

4 u 6d6 EB, NND, no range

4 u 12d6 EB, no range

 

56 points for 12 DCs or about 9.3 pts for 2 DCs. This represents 1.3 pts of additional value over the 8 pt cost for 2 martial arts DCs.

 

I agree the "true" marginal value of using DCs for NNDs, KAs, and Flashes is probably a little higher than this simplistic analysis shows, but not close to 8.7 pts as you're suggesting. And in actual play in my experience, it's not close to the value provided by Str's other benefits.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Since you have to amortize it after including the base attack (since you can only use one at a time), the real cost should be:

 

40 Multipower: 60 point base, no range

4 u 12d6 Flash, no range

4 u 4d6 RKA, no range

4 u 6d6 EB, NND, no range

4 u 12d6 EB, no range

 

I left the EB out of my analysis on the basis that you had already priced in the value of those maneuvers which would see their DC's enhanced by a purchase of STR (for the same reason, my MP doesn't address Grab, Escape, Shove, etc. etc. etc.).

 

I also don't amortize the base costs in since I didn't amortize the costs of the original martial arts maneuvers in. The comparison was for DC's added, not base powers.

 

56 points for 12 DCs or about 9.3 pts for 2 DCs. This represents 1.3 pts of additional value over the 8 pt cost for 2 martial arts DCs.

 

I agree the "true" marginal value of using DCs for NNDs, KAs, and Flashes is probably a little higher than this simplistic analysis shows, but not close to 8.7 pts as you're suggesting. And in actual play in my experience, it's not close to the value provided by Str's other benefits.

 

To clarify, my 8.7 is for two DC's, where you are getting 9.3.

 

As to actual play value, this depends largely on how the actual play is structured. If your opponent can't be hurt by a punch (huge PD), that NND is a lot more useful than if your opponent can be hurt by a standard punch. The ability to Flash a high DCV opponent (assuming you can hit him) can enable your teammates to land some solid blows. Versatility has greater value the more diverse your opponents are.

 

I will note that my experience, while not supporting the Brick as superior to the martial artist, would not support the reverse either.

[Gary]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I left the EB out of my analysis on the basis that you had already priced in the value of those maneuvers which would see their DC's enhanced by a purchase of STR (for the same reason, my MP doesn't address Grab, Escape, Shove, etc. etc. etc.).

 

I also don't amortize the base costs in since I didn't amortize the costs of the original martial arts maneuvers in. The comparison was for DC's added, not base powers.

 

You sorta have to factor in the base ability of the DC. A MA can only use the DCs for a single attack (barring MPAs or Sweeps), thus the multipower structure is entirely apt and the marginal cost should reflect it. Having a single attack is wonderful, having the option of 2 or more attacks is better but not twice as wonderful. Thus I'm very skeptical that adding to exotic attacks would double the base value of a MA DC.

 

 

To clarify, my 8.7 is for two DC's, where you are getting 9.3.

 

As to actual play value, this depends largely on how the actual play is structured. If your opponent can't be hurt by a punch (huge PD), that NND is a lot more useful than if your opponent can be hurt by a standard punch. The ability to Flash a high DCV opponent (assuming you can hit him) can enable your teammates to land some solid blows. Versatility has greater value the more diverse your opponents are.

 

I will note that my experience, while not supporting the Brick as superior to the martial artist, would not support the reverse either.

 

You have to ask yourself. Would you pay 8.7 pts for JUST the ability to add to exotic martial attacks without adding to base attacks? I suspect the answer is no. I suspect you would pay in the neighborhood for 3-4 pts for that ability, and possibly not even then.

 

Whereas for Str, I'd happily pay more than 3-4 pts for the Rec, Leap, Lift, Casual, etc.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

You sorta have to factor in the base ability of the DC. A MA can only use the DCs for a single attack (barring MPAs or Sweeps), thus the multipower structure is entirely apt and the marginal cost should reflect it. Having a single attack is wonderful, having the option of 2 or more attacks is better but not twice as wonderful. Thus I'm very skeptical that adding to exotic attacks would double the base value of a MA DC.

 

 

You have to ask yourself. Would you pay 8.7 pts for JUST the ability to add to exotic martial attacks without adding to base attacks? I suspect the answer is no. I suspect you would pay in the neighborhood for 3-4 pts for that ability, and possibly not even then.

 

Whereas for Str, I'd happily pay more than 3-4 pts for the Rec, Leap, Lift, Casual, etc.

 

I'll note again that 8.7 is for 2 DC's (I think we both know that, but it's a confusing read).

 

If you had a MP of three exotic attacks, that is what you would have to pay. If your martial artist had no basic strikes, he would pay 8 points for +2 DC's. The problem is that either could have things added (like normal attacks) or taken away (no flash in MP; no Flash maneuver). That makes flat comparisons like this very difficult.

 

Similarly, the value of any other ability can vary, despite the fixed cost. If Leap is your primary mode of movement, +1" clearly has value. If the character has 20" flight, that extra 1" leap when he buys his STR from 15 to 20 declines in value considerably.

 

Just like adding 1d6 to your existing energy blast because the GM raised the max DC's helps your character a lot more than buying a 1d6 EB, despite the fact they each cost the same 5 points.

[Zed-F]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

EDIT: You know what, I decided I'm not going to help Gary hijack this thread into another STR vs. MA debate.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Does your ranking system for MAs include Damage Classes as part of the formula as a character learns to hit harder and/or do the maneuver better with practice? How would you classify a PC with 54 CP in Martial Arts alone (10 Maneuvers' date=' 3 Damage Classes, 4 Weapon Elements) plus 3 Weapon Familiarities? Better than a typical black belt, I'm sure?[/quote']

 

Yeah, it does, and yes, I'd say that would be better than a typical black belt. (grin)

 

My system basically broke down combat ability along several lines: number of skill levels applicable to the combat style, number of DCV only levels, points in manuevers, and Damage Classes. Then I set up associations between all of these, so the players would know that if they ran into someone with ten levels for his martial art, that guy would also very likely have somewhere in the vicinity of (x) points in maneuvers, (y) number of damage classes (max of 4), and (z) number of DCV only levels.

 

It wound up working really well, because it enabled me to easily eyeball NPC combatants without having to make each one up from scratch. If I knew how good the character was supposed to be from backstory, I knew about how many of each levels, manuevers, etc he would have. Likewise, the players liked it, because it allowed them to get a sense for how good their characters were compared to other people in the world.

 

Even the exceptions worked out great. I allowed that higher-level practicioners could have more points in their KS: Martial Art instead of buying CSLs and DCs. This sounds crazy for PCs and so forth, and it is, but that's exactly how NPC, non-combatant martial artists would buy up their rating. They'd have a ton of points in maneuvers, and a high KS, but no extra combat skill levels or damage classes. They'd still be pretty good in a fight against a normal person, simply for having scads of maneuvers to choose from, and they could teach the characters a lot... after all, they have all the maneuvers! But the PCs, with their limited but effective repertoire of techniques, could do some serious damage to these guys.

[Gary]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I'll note again that 8.7 is for 2 DC's (I think we both know that, but it's a confusing read).

 

If you had a MP of three exotic attacks, that is what you would have to pay. If your martial artist had no basic strikes, he would pay 8 points for +2 DC's. The problem is that either could have things added (like normal attacks) or taken away (no flash in MP; no Flash maneuver). That makes flat comparisons like this very difficult.

 

Similarly, the value of any other ability can vary, despite the fixed cost. If Leap is your primary mode of movement, +1" clearly has value. If the character has 20" flight, that extra 1" leap when he buys his STR from 15 to 20 declines in value considerably.

 

Just like adding 1d6 to your existing energy blast because the GM raised the max DC's helps your character a lot more than buying a 1d6 EB, despite the fact they each cost the same 5 points.

 

I don't see many martial artists with only exotic attacks (in fact, I've never seen any in 20+ years of gaming). And I submit that having the ability to add +2 DCs to exotic attacks is not worth 8-9 pts on top of the 8 pts already spent for the regular damage piece.

 

Honest question for you. Would you pay 8-9 pts for +2 DCs that only add to exotic attacks if you were building a MA character? I certainly wouldn't. In fact, I wouldn't even use martial arts if I were building a character with only exotic attacks. I'd go straight for the multipower.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I don't see many martial artists with only exotic attacks (in fact, I've never seen any in 20+ years of gaming). And I submit that having the ability to add +2 DCs to exotic attacks is not worth 8-9 pts on top of the 8 pts already spent for the regular damage piece.

 

Honest question for you. Would you pay 8-9 pts for +2 DCs that only add to exotic attacks if you were building a MA character? I certainly wouldn't. In fact, I wouldn't even use martial arts if I were building a character with only exotic attacks. I'd go straight for the multipower.

 

How many of us would buy +2-3 STUN, +1 PD, +1 REC and +1" of leaping if we weren't also buying STR up? or +2-3 , +1 ED, +10 END and +1 REC if we weren't also buying CON up? The values of any of these items are subjective. All we can do is make a reasonable estimate of their point costs. Relative values are subjective.

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I think you want to double all of those except stun...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Yeah, it does, and yes, I'd say that would be better than a typical black belt. (grin)

 

My system basically broke down combat ability along several lines: number of skill levels applicable to the combat style, number of DCV only levels, points in manuevers, and Damage Classes. Then I set up associations between all of these, so the players would know that if they ran into someone with ten levels for his martial art, that guy would also very likely have somewhere in the vicinity of (x) points in maneuvers, (y) number of damage classes (max of 4), and (z) number of DCV only levels.

 

It wound up working really well, because it enabled me to easily eyeball NPC combatants without having to make each one up from scratch. If I knew how good the character was supposed to be from backstory, I knew about how many of each levels, manuevers, etc he would have. Likewise, the players liked it, because it allowed them to get a sense for how good their characters were compared to other people in the world.

 

Even the exceptions worked out great. I allowed that higher-level practicioners could have more points in their KS: Martial Art instead of buying CSLs and DCs. This sounds crazy for PCs and so forth, and it is, but that's exactly how NPC, non-combatant martial artists would buy up their rating. They'd have a ton of points in maneuvers, and a high KS, but no extra combat skill levels or damage classes. They'd still be pretty good in a fight against a normal person, simply for having scads of maneuvers to choose from, and they could teach the characters a lot... after all, they have all the maneuvers! But the PCs, with their limited but effective repertoire of techniques, could do some serious damage to these guys.

Sounds like an interesting system, and I'll look forward to seeing the details.

 

I've always thought my PC Zl'f, even out of Hero ID and thus with "only" a DEX 23 and SPD 4, would be pretty formidable against a typical black belt or Special Operation type. For obvious reasons she can't compete in formal tournaments to find out, but I figure she works out occasionally with the former British SAS and Norwegian Jägers that comprise our headquarter's security detachment and would hold her own (or better) against even those guys pretty well.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I think you want to double all of those except stun...

 

or halve stun

 

thanks for the heads up!

[Gary]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

How many of us would buy +2-3 STUN' date=' +1 PD, +1 REC and +1" of leaping if we weren't also buying STR up? or +2-3 , +1 ED, +10 END and +1 REC if we weren't also buying CON up? The values of any of these items are subjective. All we can do is make a reasonable estimate of their point costs. Relative values are subjective.[/quote']

 

A 'reasonable' estimate of the point cost is anywhere from 1.3 to 8.7 pts. My subjective estimate of its marginal value is about 3-4 pts, and only if the character has already invested in the exotic martial maneuvers. Even then, a martial KA or martial NND isn't terribly useful in general in a Super campaign, although the Flash could be deadly.

 

The Rec, Leap, Lift, etc surely has more than 3-4 pts value even if you purchase separately from Str.

 

Plus, 0 End is 'forced' upon the MA when he purchase a DC. A Str character has the option of not purchasing 0 End or only purchasing 1/2 End if his Rec is high, thus saving even more points compared to the MA.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Plus' date=' 0 End is 'forced' upon the MA when he purchase a DC. A Str character has the option of not purchasing 0 End or only purchasing 1/2 End if his Rec is high, thus saving even more points compared to the MA.[/quote']

 

+3 DC, Costs END (-1/2) 8 points

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

400th reply...

[OzMike]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

It's like it's all growed up

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I don't think Batman could beat Michael Jordan at basketball.

OTOH, Michael Jordan's skill with a batarang is nothing to write home about either.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

OTOH' date=' Michael Jordan's skill with a batarang is nothing to write home about either. [/quote']

 

Pfft.. Dude's like ace with those things. He can tag a fly from at least two hundred yards, in a hurricane.

 

 

[Remjin]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Though the window, over the bus, off the light pole, knocking out that thug, nothing but net...

[Mike W]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I think whether you use Martial Arts or whether you use Combat Skill Levels depends on the character. For me, the general guideline is that if I can't name the Martial Art the character is using, then they get CSLs.

[Korvar]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

That also works when the name of the Martial Art the character is using is "all of them".

[Vondy]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

 

I'm still waiting for a sample character.

 

Why? You've already got a straw man.

You already know that campaigns are relative and that a batman write-up would only be useful when compared to the other builds in the campaign it operates in.

 

You already know there have been multiple canonical presentations of batman that would result in different interpretations and builds for him depending on which one you used for a baseline.

 

You already know that there is more than one way to skin a cat in hero and that more than one design is valid depending on what the goals, preferences, priorities, and play style of the person building the character are.

 

And most importantly: you know that the bottom line is gaming is does it work for you - not does it work for someone else.

 

So what good is demanding a build when the only build you will accept is valid is one that meets your personal, subjective interpretation of your preferred batman incarnation and source materials and your preferred style of play?

 

Any build of the Bat is just one fanboy's abstract mechanical representation of a fictional character who has no consistent baseline within canonical materials using a system that has no meaningful benchmarks for characteristics other than strength other than internal campaign standards set by the group and/or GM.

 

Utterly pointless.

 

Yes, there are people who have different interpretations based on preferred source materials and character incarnations than you do.

 

Yes, there are people who build their characters differently than you do.

 

Yes, they enjoy the games they play in.

 

That's the point, no?

 

Play style and design philosophy are essentially amoral concepts with no objective baseline. Arguing "right way" and "wrong way" with someone who differs from you on these points is the height of perfidy.

 

The best you can do is: "I prefer this incarnation of the bat and would build it this way."

 

Anything more than that is tilting at windmills.

 

Just build your own version and be happy with it, no?

 

GASP!

[OzMike]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

OTOH' date=' Michael Jordan's skill with a batarang is nothing to write home about either. [/quote']

 

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[Guest Goradin]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Would a brick be a good fighter without their Strength?

 

Superman, No, so no martial arts for him.

Thor, yes, as he is both strong and skilled.