Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

And I may have missed it but if this NCM thing is a consistent thing across the whole campaign for 'norms'' date=' what's the issue? These numbers on the page can be fiddled with by talented makers to make a character who can really mix it with the tough lads, or you can keep it simple.[/quote']

 

Would it be equally OK if NCM applied for female characters and not male characters? What if it only applied to players with red hair?

 

Consider one sample build. It will be a highly trained combatant, either a mutant or a normal human, with NCM applied only if he is a normal human. The builds will be absolutely identical except where noted:

 

DEX - human has 20. Mutant has 26. Mutant pays 18 extra points.

SPD - both have 4. Mutant pays 6 less points due to DEX.

DCV Levels - human has 2 to offset the mutant's DEX. Mutant pays 10 less points.

OCV levels - human has 2 to offset the mutant's DEX. Mutant pays 10 less points.

Lightning reflexes - human has +6 to offset the mutant's DEX. Mutant pays 4 less points.

Levels w/ DEX skills - human has 2 to offset the mutant's DEX. Mutant pays 10 less points.

Other Abilities in Common - each has 328 points spent on identical other abilities

Extra Abilities - mutant pays 22 points less for his CV, combat order and DEX skills, so he has 22 points of added abilities.

 

Both characters have spent 350 points. They are functionally identical except that the mutant has 22 extra points to buy extras. Is this fair? How many game sessions will it take for Human to achieve parity with Mutant? Well, he never will - at best, the disparity will be constant. At worst, Mutant will buy up his DEX further, leaving Human further behind.

 

hmmm...this provides a good reason for that whole "humans hate mutants" theme, doesn't it?

 

The imbalance gets worse, of course, if we want to give our characters speeds of 5 or 6, which we would in most games. Every extra SPD grants the mutant a further 10 point advantage. However, in Checkmate's game, he has restricted speed considerably, so 4 speed is likely adequate.

[OzMike]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Is it OK? Perhaps. I mean morally it is a bit dodgy to say only women have NCM, but if that's the way the world has been set up then that's the way it works in the game. As long as the players know about it, why not?

 

And yes, it does provide the exact right reason for humans to hate mutants doesn't it? What's the term in Marvel? Homo Superior?

 

Anyways, this NCM discussion probably needs it's own thread. Seems like a goody.

[Mentor]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

So what you're saying is' date=' combat skills levels suck? It's better to put your points into DEX? This would suggest that DEX is undervalued.[/quote']

On the contrary, all apply. Tarzan would have really high stats, incredible abilities and some CSLs. Li Mu Bai (Crouching Tiger...) would have some high stats, incredible abilities and lots of CSLs. In other words, the character itself determines the appropriate mix, not the optimal point/capability buy. It is better to stay true to the character concept and roleplay.

 

That being said, a low level campaign Tarzan character with say, a 23 DEX/5 SPD would appropriately be 29 DEX/6 or 7 SPD in a high level campaign. Reality is pretty much maleable in RPGs.

[OzMike]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

That being said' date=' a low level campaign Tarzan character with say, a 23 DEX/5 SPD would appropriately be 29 DEX/6 or 7 SPD in a high level campaign. Reality is pretty much maleable in RPGs.[/quote']

 

Yes, yes, and yes!

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Is it OK? Perhaps. I mean morally it is a bit dodgy to say only women have NCM, but if that's the way the world has been set up then that's the way it works in the game. As long as the players know about it, why not?

 

And yes, it does provide the exact right reason for humans to hate mutants doesn't it? What's the term in Marvel? Homo Superior?

 

Anyways, this NCM discussion probably needs it's own thread. Seems like a goody.

 

It's got quite a few already

[David Johnston]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

On the contrary' date=' all apply. Tarzan would have really high stats, incredible abilities and some CSLs. .[/quote']

 

Why? Given that Dex can represent trained skill, and given that skill levels represent trained skill, and combat skill levels are way inferior to Dex, why bother getting any combat skill levels? All it would be is another unnecessary slot on your character sheet.

[Gary]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

This requires you to accept that +2 REC (4 points), +2 leap (2 points), and the other four abilities (points uncertain) is more valuable than the extra DC's in Martial Flash, KAs, and NNDs (value also uncertain). Buying +2 DC's (+1 to the KA) in a Multipower would require you to raise the base MP points by 10, and pay 1 for each Ultra slot (0.5 for the KA), or 12.5 points. The value of STR's other abilities must be worth 7 points to make it the (slightly) better bargain.

 

Of course, if the MA doesn't have all three special martial attacks, or if he has some others [there are two standard Martial NND's, plus all those "move and attack" maneuvers in UMA, for example] the theoretical cost varies.

 

About the only time we have a clear and certain bargain price is when both builds grant the exact same abilities.

 

 

I don't quite see the ability to add 2 DCs to martial flash, KA, or NNDs to be worth 12.5 pts. This is from extensive experience and play. Also, the MA must purchase those 3 maneuvers to begin with, which would cost 12 pts or so additional.

 

Whereas Rec, Leap, Lift, and Casual have long proven value in actual play.

[Checkmate]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

So to summorise (sp)

 

A) you admit that normal guy has to spend more points in your game to be as competent as mutant guy?

 

You think that is fair because it does not interfere with the way you set up your world (Which btw contradicts your statement on lets keep this about being fair and cost, you have brought in your views on how a world should be)

Well my world views did have a lot to do with being fair. I've simply broadened the "is it fair". It depends on who you're talking about being fair to. You have to be fair to EVERYONE involved not just the one player.

 

Let me see if I can make you see this another way, on a conceptual level:

 

(Don't answer based on your system)Should an equal amount of points spent give a character an equal amount of abilities, regardless of origin? Yes or No

My intial response would have been "Yes", but thinking about it, I thought of Element Controls. They go by character conception (or are supposed to). If you wanted a Werewolf Element Control, a GM shouldn't allow you to take an Energy Blast with an ice SFX. That means you would have to pay more than someone who could fit an ice SFX EB into their Element Control.

 

So with this example in mind, I'd answer with a resounding: Probably. In most cases you're right it should. If it were to ever become a problem, I might consider DEX with limitations instead of straight combat levels, I'd have to do some play testing and math to make sure though.

 

There were some other things I had forgotten to respond to:

Someone said that I don't play my Trained Nomal with my system, and you're right I don't ANYMORE, but if recall I've said I didn't develop this system, just adopted it. I came to LOVE this system playing the concept you all seem to think is gimped or unfairly treated.

 

There was also mention of Stan Lee's Spiderman: You're absolutely right, I wouldn't have approved the character. I haven't read comics in quite some time, but when I did, look at how Spiderman was treated: It's like they absolutely forgot that he was a Chemistry guru. I mean what has he created besides his web shooters? He couldn't even make a living with it, but in highschool he could create these things? Heck there are comics where he acts absolutely lost when it comes to science (Secret Wars he acts clueless around Reed Richards, Avengers acts suprised that creatures made out of lava can burn through his webs, two examples off the top of my head). I think there WERE reasons Stan didn't want Spidey to have internal webs (probably the whole spinneretts on the butt) and ONLY made him a chem wiz to solve that problem. Which can be equated to only using it to save points on a IIF, but all this is just a theory.

 

People were also complaining they hate when a GM forces their concept of a character on a player: Well I try not to do that, but I am not a forgiving GM and I make no apologies about that. If I don't like your character or concept I won't allow it. If your heart is set on that character/concept, find a different GM. If I don't like your character or concept it won't be fun to GM that character. If the GM isn't having fun, it hurts my other players. I'm very big on the players are the stars of the show. They are the best around and every aspect of them is important. I'm only human, if I don't like your character, I'll find myself dreading coming up with senarios where that character will shine.

[Mentor]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Why? Given that Dex can represent trained skill' date=' and given that skill levels represent trained skill, and combat skill levels are way inferior to Dex, why bother getting any combat skill levels? All it would be is another unnecessary slot on your character sheet.[/quote']

Because a player whose character concept definition is of relatively normal human stats but an incredible Martial Arts ability should be willing to use the maneuvers to affect OC/DCV advantages of the opposition while doing real damage through the use of Martil Arts, CSLs, and Find Weakness. At some point the challenge of playing the character is more important for me than doing or taking the most damage 350 can generate.

 

After thirty years of gaming, I have seen most variations of stretching the original character concept around the most efficient combat ability purchases, but no amount of sophistry will make a Dark Knight type character with Flash's DEX and SPD, Superman's STR, PD and ED, and Green Lantern's VPP ring into a character that anyone would believe is Batman just because one could afford to build him that way.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I don't quite see the ability to add 2 DCs to martial flash' date=' KA, or NNDs to be worth 12.5 pts. This is from extensive experience and play. Also, the MA must purchase those 3 maneuvers to begin with, which would cost 12 pts or so additional.[/quote']

 

ACK! 12.5 is over - the attacks are all no range! But the cost is more than you seem to credit. CONSIDER:

 

30 Multipower: 45 point base, no range

 

3 u 9d6 Flash, no range

3 u 3d6 RKA, no range

3 u 4 1/2d6 EB, NND, no range

 

39 points

 

40 Multipower: 60 point base, no range

4 u 12d6 Flash, no range

4 u 4d6 RKA, no range

4 u 6d6 EB, NND, no range

 

52 points

 

3DC's for 13 points means 2 DC's for 8 2/3 points (not the 12.5 I initially estimated). I'm using RKA due to the no range issue, and adding full DC's as STR would normally add to an HKA. [As I said, whenever the abilities aren't exactly identical, we muddy the waters to some extent.]

 

Martial Artists in my games have never felt like they were second class heroes compared to the Bricks.

 

Whereas Rec' date=' Leap, Lift, and Casual have long proven value in actual play.[/quote']

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Well my world views did have a lot to do with being fair. I've simply broadened the "is it fair". It depends on who you're talking about being fair to. You have to be fair to EVERYONE involved not just the one player.

 

So are you saying it's unfair to the other players if the Highly Trained Human character can buy his abilities for the SAME point cost their characters, which fall into some other archetype, would pay for the SAME abilities?

 

There was also mention of Stan Lee's Spiderman: You're absolutely right' date=' I wouldn't have approved the character. I haven't read comics in quite some time, but when I did, look at how Spiderman was treated: It's like they absolutely forgot that he was a Chemistry guru. I mean what has he created besides his web shooters?[/quote']

 

OK, I'm not a huge Spidey fan, but, off the top of my head:

 

- the device that removed the Vulture's ability to fly

- the acid that welded 2 or Doc Ock's robotic arms together

- the Spider Tracers that trigger his spider sense so he can track people

- Impact webbing (I think the clone made it, but still Peter Parker's skills)

 

He couldn't even make a living with it' date=' but in highschool he could create these things?[/quote']

 

I recall he couldn't sell it to the glue company because it faded after an hour. You'd think he could have figured out how to make that limitation go away. [sounds like his GM was clutching at straws to avoid letting him buy Wealth with his xp ]

 

Heck there are comics where he acts absolutely lost when it comes to science (Secret Wars he acts clueless around Reed Richards' date=' Avengers acts suprised that creatures made out of lava can burn through his webs, two examples off the top of my head).[/quote']

 

Everyone is clueless compared to Reed Richards. Molton Man used to have difficulty with his webs. And any character with 40+ years of continuous publishing history will have some discrepancies turn up over time. [it only took Happy Days a couple of seasons to lose a Cunningham child entirely!]

[Zed-F]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

You have to be fair to EVERYONE involved not just the one player.

Right. That's why, if I wanted a low-power world where everyone is mostly NCM or under, I would apply NCM universally to all characters. No exceptions for concept, saving possibly for characteristics bought as powers in some cases. This might not work out to be a lot different from what you're doing currently, but it makes the line in the sand clearer.

 

Then you can have several characters each start with a given level of DEX, and have character A buy 'Super-Trained Reflexes: +10 DEX', character B buy 'Mutant Reflexes: +10 DEX', and character C buy 'Precognitive Reflexes: +10 DEX' and not have to quibble about SFX, as all of them are powers, i.e. abilities not available to non-supers. You can become a super by exceptional training, but at the end of the day you're still a super.

 

If I don't like your character or concept I won't allow it.

 

Spot on. Don't make someone pay extra CP if you don't think the power should be allowed on the sheet. Make them justify it, and if you don't like the justification, just say no. This avoids the problem of having characters not balance relative to one another. If they don't like it, they can make a better-justified character. But if Joe Green Lantern clone wants martial arts, and he can justify it in his background, he shouldn't have to pay more for it; he already won't be as good as a pure martial artist simply by virtue of the fact that most of his points will go to fuel his power ring.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Why? Given that Dex can represent trained skill' date=' and given that skill levels represent trained skill, and combat skill levels are way inferior to Dex, why bother getting any combat skill levels?[/quote']In a word: concept.

 

A "highly trained human" as opposed to a "superhuman" might by concept have to concentrate on what he's doing (i.e., assign his Combat Levels) for optimal effect against a particular opponent. Combat Levels can also provide extra damage; something DEX simply can't do. And of course, if the character also has a lot of non-combat Skills, then Overall Levels might well become a better buy than the 3/5/8 CP Combat Skill Levels.

 

Even my character Zl'f, with a 43 DEX, has two Overall Levels, which in combat are usually applied to her DCV. I think, based on play experience, that that's proven more useful than simply buying her DEX up to 53 with the extra 20 points would have been because not all of her Skills are DEX-based.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

People were also complaining they hate when a GM forces their concept of a character on a player: Well I try not to do that' date=' but I am not a forgiving GM and I make no apologies about that. If I don't like your character or concept I won't allow it. If your heart is set on that character/concept, find a different GM. If I don't like your character or concept it won't be fun to GM that character. If the GM isn't having fun, it hurts my other players. I'm very big on the players are the stars of the show. They are the best around and every aspect of them is important. I'm only human, if I don't like your character, I'll find myself dreading coming up with scenarios where that character will shine.[/quote']This is of course every GMs right, and I'm no different. I may not tell a player "Your character concept/build sucks," but I certainly would tell him "He just won't work in this campaign. Either try again with another character, or redesign him as I've suggested." (A character concept I've actually seen was a "vampire" who was immune to sunlight, holy symbols and holy water, and didn't drink blood. In my book that's not a vampire, and I simply wouldn't allow it in my game, the example of Blade notwithstanding.)

 

Players have equal right to vote with their feet and leave. Over the 23 years I've been playing Champions I've quit playing in three different Champions campaigns, including a recent PBEM one which had a truly gifted GM who was simply too much of a jerk for me to put up with. Too bad, because strictly as a GM he was outstanding. As a person, he was Mr. Hyde.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Going back a little more on-topic ...

 

It occurs to me that the decision of CSLs vs MA is simply a matter of player choice and how he envisions his character. Much as you can declare that your character's Fire Blast is an EB, or RKA, or AP EB, or Penetrating RKA, or any of hundreds of other things, whether or not you want to declare his enhanced fighting ability, mechanically, to be CSL or MA is simply a matter of choice.

 

Either is perfectly valid.

(I know that and you know that, but it really stymes the intellectual types if they can't argue the merits)

 

[David Johnston]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Then you can have several characters each start with a given level of DEX, and have character A buy 'Super-Trained Reflexes: +10 DEX', character B buy 'Mutant Reflexes: +10 DEX', and character C buy 'Precognitive Reflexes: +10 DEX' and not have to quibble about SFX, as all of them are powers, i.e. abilities not available to non-supers. You can become a super by exceptional training, but at the end of the day you're still a super.

 

No, no you aren't. A superhuman has something that a human doesn't. Otherwise he ain't superhuman.

Spot on. Don't make someone pay extra CP if you don't think the power should be allowed on the sheet. Make them justify it, and if you don't like the justification, just say no. This avoids the problem of having characters not balance relative to one another. If they don't like it, they can make a better-justified character.

 

How do you deal with this balance problem when it arises as a result of characters having more or less experience because of missed or extra game sessions, or when it arises just because they get combat skill levels even though they could get DEX instead?

 

Moving on to another person:

 

Originally Posted by David Johnston

Why? Given that Dex can represent trained skill, and given that skill levels represent trained skill, and combat skill levels are way inferior to Dex, why bother getting any combat skill levels?

In a word: concept.

 

A "highly trained human" as opposed to a "superhuman" might by concept have to concentrate on what he's doing (i.e., assign his Combat Levels) for optimal effect against a particular opponent. Combat Levels can also provide extra damage; something DEX simply can't do.

 

Yes but the statement I was responding to was that Tarzan would have to have a SPD higher than 4 and a DEX higher than 20 since otherwise he wouldn't be able to beat up large numbers of goons because combat skill levels suck. If combat skill levels are that ineffective, what makes them worth having at all?

[Mentor]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

"snip"

How do you deal with this balance problem when it arises as a result of characters having more or less experience because of missed or extra game sessions, or when it arises just because they get combat skill levels even though they could get DEX instead?

I don't exactly know to whom the question was addressed, but I'll take a stab at it if you don't mind?

 

Our campaign seldom, if ever runs into balance issues over a few missed games or a minor (10-15 points) variation in XP, as the villains are defeated by the decisions of the players and then the numbers rolled on the dice. Never have combats been predictable just by comparing one side's CHA and Power stats against the other side. It is all in how you use them. Our hero team (both words critically important in judging the flavor of our team, BTW:) ) has managed to exercise consistent teamwork and always covers each others backs in a way just buying a Teamwork or Tactics skill can't reproduce. You do it, you don't roll it. We were joking that our Comic title should be *Midguard; We didn't see that coming!* as the team is constantly solving problems and beating opponents in ways the GMs never anticipated.

 

As far as combat skill levels, they have a versatility all their own and I would not even include them a disadvantaged buy in the first place.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Then you can have several characters each start with a given level of DEX, and have character A buy 'Super-Trained Reflexes: +10 DEX', character B buy 'Mutant Reflexes: +10 DEX', and character C buy 'Precognitive Reflexes: +10 DEX' and not have to quibble about SFX, as all of them are powers, i.e. abilities not available to non-supers. You can become a super by exceptional training, but at the end of the day you're still a super.

 

I like this idea. I use it myself in my post apoc game. One of the characters has a power called The Strength of Ten Men! +15STR, which is no longer limited in any way [used to have rsr PRE Roll] - but it's still a power... if he were to walk into a zone where powers didn't exist, or run into an NPC who could nullify powers, I know exactly how much can be taken away from him.

 

Not to say everyone has to have NCM, but that stats which are powers should be written out as such.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Oh and 10pt levels are some of the most useful things in any HERO game.

[Checkmate]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Right. That's why' date=' if I wanted a low-power world where everyone is mostly NCM or under, I would apply NCM universally to all characters. No exceptions for concept, saving possibly for characteristics bought as powers in some cases. This might not work out to be a lot different from what you're doing currently, but it makes the line in the sand clearer.[/quote'] This is EXACTLY the way it works in my world. If your characteristics are over NCM, it's a power. No matter the concept.

 

Then you can have several characters each start with a given level of DEX' date=' and have character [b']A buy 'Super-Trained Reflexes: +10 DEX'[/b], character B buy 'Mutant Reflexes: +10 DEX', and character C buy 'Precognitive Reflexes: +10 DEX' and not have to quibble about SFX, as all of them are powers, i.e. abilities not available to non-supers. You can become a super by exceptional training, but at the end of the day you're still a super.

I hadn't considered that option before, but it would be something to look at if it ever becomes a problem.

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Removed do to my self riotous attitude, sorry to any who saw it

[Remjin]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I wanted to contribute to this thread, and tried to read through it all, but all the arguing over source material, speed, dex, and everything has gotten me pretty much uninterested in reading all of it. So, to speak to the basic gross concept of Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts...

 

From what I've read in my unrevised 5th edition book (which apparently doesn't have 10 point skill levels, either... ), looking at the maneuvers, and from my general outlook on the rules, I personally think the difference between martial arts and combat skill levels is really as they are defined.

 

Combat skill levels are a definition of SKILL, while martial maneuvers are representative of some kind of technique. The technique defines OCV and DCV bonuses as well as certain results (additional damage, opponent prone, changing damage type, etc.) so that there's a point to taking them.

 

In context, we take a martial artist who is attending at a school of some sort. Style is insignificant to the matter. Most of us, I'm guessing, have attended some classes so have a basic concept of how it goes. The teacher can teach you whatever technique, let's use something simple as an example: a roundhouse kick. You know how to do it, you become proficient at it, you can actually do more damage with it than you could a basic punch, let's say. You have now learned martial strike, which has advantages and disadvantages in its use to your position (OCV and DCV). It does more damage than the punch of lenny, your lazy couch buddy. Yay for us!

 

...but Billy, the assistant instructor, 3rd level blackbelt and semi-pro kickboxer, also knows this same maneuver. Yet, if he wants, he can do more damage with it than is accountable to his strength, he can hit with it more often, throw it from better or even more diverse positions than you can, and keep his balance better while doing it. That's because he has more combat skill levels. That, and he doesn't spend half his time playing games involving dice, paper, loads of snacks and soda, and laughing at WAAAAAY inside jokes. He's not faster, he's not more dextrous, he's not even stronger, he's just better than you.

 

As for martial maneuvers representing martial arts or just plain ol' being good at fighting... I'd say it applies to both. I've seen completely unschooled fighters using advanced martial concepts that most "martial artists" can't even wrap their heads around. I've also seen several degreed martial artists who know a LOT of stuff, even execute it well, but can't fight in a real fight to save their life. So in essence, there's knowing a move, and then there's being good with it....

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I wanted to contribute to this thread, and tried to read through it all, but all the arguing over source material, speed, dex, and everything has gotten me pretty much uninterested in reading all of it. So, to speak to the basic gross concept of Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts...

 

From what I've read in my unrevised 5th edition book (which apparently doesn't have 10 point skill levels, either... ), looking at the maneuvers, and from my general outlook on the rules, I personally think the difference between martial arts and combat skill levels is really as they are defined.

 

clip

 

ok, just so you know, 10 point skill levels can be found on pages 48-49 under skill levels, this supports my idea of merging CSL's, SL's and PSL's under one header...

[Zed-F]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Then you can have several characters each start with a given level of DEX, and have character A buy 'Super-Trained Reflexes: +10 DEX', character B buy 'Mutant Reflexes: +10 DEX', and character C buy 'Precognitive Reflexes: +10 DEX' and not have to quibble about SFX, as all of them are powers, i.e. abilities not available to non-supers. You can become a super by exceptional training, but at the end of the day you're still a super.

 

No, no you aren't. A superhuman has something that a human doesn't. Otherwise he ain't superhuman.

Go back and read what I posted again. Normal humans don't have powers.

 

If you're a person with the build of a typical 98-lb. weakling, and never exercise, but you can lift 400 lbs., it doesn't matter that you're still within NCM. You've got superhuman strength. If you are a trained soldier to start with, with 14 DEX, and get secret-master-ninja training that gives you +10 DEX for a total of 24, then you've got superhuman agillity.

 

Note: Here I'm referring to an NCM superheroic game. The breakpoints on what counts as superhuman may be different for a game with human peak at 30, as per the CU.

 

Spot on. Don't make someone pay extra CP if you don't think the power should be allowed on the sheet. Make them justify it, and if you don't like the justification, just say no. This avoids the problem of having characters not balance relative to one another. If they don't like it, they can make a better-justified character.

 

How do you deal with this balance problem when it arises as a result of characters having more or less experience because of missed or extra game sessions, or when it arises just because they get combat skill levels even though they could get DEX instead?

 

Some possible answers:

- You don't necessarily need to deal with it. The more experienced character may just have a few more/better skills, which don't imbalance anything. A small difference in combat potential may just be a reward for a more loyal player. Since the characters in question will tend to have different schticks, and thus different roles in a fight, small differences may not even be noticeable in play.

- If it's a big difference, and it's causing a problem in play, then you need to talk with your players about normalizing the game.

 

Either way, this doesn't imply you shouldn't at least start things off on an even keel.

[Shike019]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

From what I've read in my unrevised 5th edition book (which apparently doesn't have 10 point skill levels, either... ), looking at the maneuvers, and from my general outlook on the rules, I personally think the difference between martial arts and combat skill levels is really as they are defined.

 

I don't know about the unrevised 5th edition, but I know that in 5er, martial arts are Listed under skills and explained in detail in the combat section.

 

BTW, I've lurked throught his entire thread and found it very interesting. Even though I lean towards the view of bwdemon and Checkmate, I can easily see both sides of the argument (hold over from my days in philosophy class). Both have there merit, but like I said I have personal leanings towards the NCM side.

 

As towards the original post, I think that Martial Arts describe a particular "style" of fighting, even if it is a made up style. And CSL's work to determine how well you can use that style. YMMV of course.

 

Cheers