STR vs. Gravity

[ghost-angel]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

That would work for me. I just don't think the mechanic already in place for the game addresses the problem in any way, shape or form. A 500 ton boulder held down by 5 pts. of STR will only require 5 pts. of STR to lift.

 

Keith "Personally, I never stat out that kind of stuff anyway" Curtis

 

I don't disagee. STR is a wonky use for Gravity. I like just created a Gravity Effect and assigning a point based on what it would be used for. I would say it's only approrpiate for Vehicles/Bases and not for characters though.

[SteveZilla]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

I don't disagee. STR is a wonky use for Gravity. I like just created a Gravity Effect and assigning a point based on what it would be used for. I would say it's only approrpiate for Vehicles/Bases and not for characters though.

 

Agreed. I wouldn't let a character have effectively Density Increase + AoE: Radius(+1), UAA(+1), Only to Increase Weight(-2).

[ghost-angel]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

So how about this:

 

New Power

Gravity

5pts/Level

Only For Vehicles and Bases

 

Each Level of Gravity increases the effective gravity on the vehicle/base by one when outside the influence of Planetary Gravity.

5pts = 1G; 10pts = 2G.

 

Less than 1 Gravity is a cause the environment itself.

[LunaRagno]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

So how about this:

 

New Power

Gravity

5pts/Level

Only For Vehicles and Bases

 

Each Level of Gravity increases the effective gravity on the vehicle/base by one when outside the influence of Planetary Gravity.

5pts = 1G; 10pts = 2G.

 

Less than 1 Gravity is a cause the environment itself.

 

I believe this is good, but I ask, why only when outside the influence of Planetary Gravity¹?

 

If a vehicle can artificially generate gravity, what prevents it from doing so while upon a planet's surface?

 

 

¹To be precise, there is no such thing. That is why Newton's theory is called The Theory of Universal Gravitation. Thus one is always with the gravitational influence of every body in the Universe. However, I understand you to mean beyond any appreciable gravitational influence.

[SteveZilla]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

So how about this:

 

New Power

Gravity

5pts/Level

Only For Vehicles and Bases

 

Each Level of Gravity increases the effective gravity on the vehicle/base by one when outside the influence of Planetary Gravity.

5pts = 1G; 10pts = 2G.

 

Less than 1 Gravity is a cause the environment itself.

 

Okay, now that we have Environmental Power: Gravity, does it's use convey partial/complete immunity to the effects of inertial (sharp turns) and external Environmental Gravity (like flying upside down, but not spilling coffee from your cup)?

 

The first I would easily consider handwavium, as it doesn't enter into it for characters when they move really fast. The second I could see as an adder to the power, or just presumed with the first level.

 

Also, what are the effects of someone moveing through an area of increased gravity with something other than Teleportation? Emphasis on both Running and Flight. The problem I see is that the effect can depend somewhat on the F/X of the movement power.

 

Then there is the effect on the character, just as he stands/hovers there (or tries to, anyway).

 

(edit) And what about when the vehicle is in a gravity field *stronger* than it's Environmental Power: Gravity? Could it use it's EPG to counteract some/all of the external gravity?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

Seems to me that changing gravity level would fit nicely under Change Environment, similar to changing temperature level.

[SteveZilla]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

Seems to me that changing gravity level would fit nicely under Change Environment' date=' similar to changing temperature level.[/quote']

 

At first glance, that would seem to be the case. However, unlike temperature, gravity has both an intensity >=0 (temperature can be > 0, = 0, or < 0), and a direction (temperature just is). Gravity (or the lack of it) has much more profound effects on the environment than temperature does.

 

I wouldn't mind a workup for Change Environment: Gravity Effects, but still think it would be too easily (possibly unintentionally) abused for it to be an allowed PC power. It would just be a way of "stating-out" that portion of the environment, IMO.

[SteveZilla]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

1. Falling is caused by gravity.
   
2. Falling occurs every Segment.
   
3. Ergo, gravity causes effects every Segment.
   
4. Crushing damage is also caused by gravity.
   
5. Ergo, crushing damage should also occur every Segment.
   

 

Just divide the crushing damage by 12 and apply it against 1/12 their PD. Now you have the same overall effect, but on a segment-by-segment scale.

 

Also, falling isn't what hurts, it's the sudden, crushing stop at the end.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

However' date=' unlike temperature, gravity has both an intensity >=0 (temperature can be > 0, = 0, or < 0), and a direction (temperature just is).[/quote']

Not necessarily. You could just say that the force of gravity is increased or decreased in an area. Making things fall faster or slower or upward. You're just changing the value of the Universal Gravitational Constant, in a local area. Making things fall sideways is probably better done with TK.

 

If you're in space, you can increase gravity to make you fall toward the nearest planet (or star, so watch out!). Or something like that. Maybe.

[SteveZilla]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

Not necessarily. You could just say that the force of gravity is increased or decreased in an area. Making things fall faster or slower or upward.

 

Upwards would take a reversal of the gravitic field -- i.e., the gravity is now pulling on objects from above them, and to a greater level than the local gravity. It may be splitting hairs, but I have to insist that Gravity only pulls, and doesn't push.

 

You're just changing the value of the Universal Gravitational Constant' date=' in a local area. Making things fall sideways is probably better done with TK.[/quote']

 

"Changing the value of G" is an F/X. A Gravitic Field Generator of sufficient strength could (in fictional theory IMO ) create a field of gravity of any orientation that fully overrides the local gravity.

 

If you're in space' date=' you can increase gravity to make you fall toward the nearest planet (or star, so watch out!). Or something like that. Maybe.[/quote']

 

That wouldn't be allowed. It's just Flight with "Grav Drive" as the F/X. Same reason one can't fly with just TK.

 

-----------------------------------------------

Aside: I see you still haven't fixed your avatar, Phil. Just convert it from .ART to .JPG and all the problems will go away.

[keithcurtis]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

Upwards would take a reversal of the gravitic field -- i.e.' date=' the gravity is now pulling on objects from above them, and to a greater level than the local gravity. It may be splitting hairs, but I have to insist that Gravity only pulls, and doesn't push.[/quote']

 

In certain circumstances, the absence of gravity would cause things to fall upward. Standing on a planetary surface, you will slowly "rise" without gravity to hold you down. From your point of view, you will be slowly rising and heading westward. From the POV of someone in space, you will be moving in a straight line while the surface where you were standing rotates away underneath you.

 

Although I said "certain circumstances", this probably applies in 99%+ of rpg situations.

 

Keith "gravitic nitpicker" Curtis

[Kenn]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

This is the Hero System. You work out what the effects of the ability are and work from there. For some gravitic effects, Change Environment is called for, STR is good for others, Flight, Telekinisis. I think trying to find a single power that best represents gravity is a non-starter.

[ghost-angel]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

I believe this is good, but I ask, why only when outside the influence of Planetary Gravity¹?

 

If a vehicle can artificially generate gravity, what prevents it from doing so while upon a planet's surface?

 

 

¹To be precise, there is no such thing. That is why Newton's theory is called The Theory of Universal Gravitation. Thus one is always with the gravitational influence of every body in the Universe. However, I understand you to mean beyond any appreciable gravitational influence.

 

Yeah - all that and a bag of peanuts.

 

Yes, Environmental Power: Gravity is meant to be used outside the influence of an appreciable gravity source (Planet, Black Hole, et cetera).

 

So I should note that astrunauts in orbit are not in a 0G environment, they are in a state of perpetual free fall, which exhibits properties of 0G but it not actually such a state.

 

As for all the questions Stevezilla brought up:

All good points/questions to be sure.

 

My answer? Leave it up to the nature of the game being played and put it firmly in the hands of the GM and Players.

 

(I can't tell if that was a cop out or sound advice)

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

Upwards would take a reversal of the gravitic field -- i.e.' date=' the gravity is now pulling on objects from above them, and to a greater level than the local gravity. It may be splitting hairs, but I have to insist that Gravity only pulls, and doesn't push.[/quote']

That's only because the Universal Gravitational Constant, "G," is positive. If it were negative, then objects would repel each other. I've seen computer games that use the idea of negative gravity. The math is just as consistant, even if the results are a little freaky. Changing gravity from positive to negative is still a one-variable operation.

 

"Changing the value of G" is an F/X.

No it isn't. It's just a mathematical way of describing the end result. "Magic" "Rubber Science Technological Device" "Cosmic Manipulation" "Reaching Though the Fourth Wall to Turn the Comic Book Panel Upside-down" - those are F/X.

 

A Gravitic Field Generator of sufficient strength could (in fictional theory IMO ) create a field of gravity of any orientation that fully overrides the local gravity.

My only point was to provide a way to restrict the gravity-altering power to a "one-variable-only" (magnitude) power, like temperature, which seemed to be what you wanted. If you want to say that CE can only change magnitudes, but not directions, you can. It would mean that all objects still exert a gravitic force on each other, but it becomes stronger or weaker (or maybe even negative). If you think "sideways gravity" is to powerful/flexible for CE to be able to do (and I don't disagree), this is a simple restriction you can use to prevent it.

 

That wouldn't be allowed. It's just Flight with "Grav Drive" as the F/X. Same reason one can't fly with just TK.

! Flight is *very* different from free-fall. If you're at the same distance from the earth as the moon, and you double the force of earth's gravity on you, all that will happen is you'll fall twice as fast as you were falling before. You have no control over the fall or where you land or any way to slow down (other than by the natural air resistance, which will probably be almost as deadly as the landing). And if you are close enough to the moon when you start, you'll fall toward the moon instead. That's not the same thing as flight at all.

 

Aside: I see you still haven't fixed your avatar, Phil. Just convert it from .ART to .JPG and all the problems will go away.

I don't know how to do that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

I don't know how to do that.

If you want me to try send me a PM and I'll shoot you an email addy to send the file to and I'll attempt a conversion to JPG.

 

Gravity As SFX:

 

Why not? I give you Gravitar who moves things by changing relative Gs and Gravitic Pull.

 

Ice is also merely a phase state of water, but we also treat it as SFX of things.

[SteveZilla]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

That's only because the Universal Gravitational Constant' date=' "G," is positive. If it were negative, then objects would repel each other. I've seen computer games that use the idea of negative gravity. The math is just as consistent, even if the results are a little freaky. Changing gravity from positive to negative is still a one-variable operation.[/quote']

 

IMO such a change "flips" Gravity into Anti-Gravity, which, by definition is a repulsive (but still likeable ) force. You could just as easily say that the power is "inverting space" so as to introduce an imaginary component to the distance between the two, thus making d^2 a negative value. Same net effect.

 

I remember a 2 player arcade game from a long time ago called Space Wars. For it's time, I liked it. Heh, now I’m showing my age. :straight

 

No it isn't. It's just a mathematical way of describing the end result. "Magic" "Rubber Science Technological Device" "Cosmic Manipulation" "Reaching Though the Fourth Wall to Turn the Comic Book Panel Upside-down" - those are F/X.

 

I have to disagree with you. Any description of how a power is generated is at least a part of, if not the whole of, the F/X of the power. Whether a power affects the gravitational force in an area by changing G, or redirecting the gravitons, or by "warping space" -- those are the F/X of the powers. Just because one "utilizes" a real-world Newtonian formula in its explanation doesn't change that.

 

My only point was to provide a way to restrict the gravity-altering power to a "one-variable-only" (magnitude) power' date=' like temperature, which seemed to be what you wanted.[/quote']

 

Oh, okay. See below for further explanation of why I was thinking “one-variable-only”.

 

If you want to say that CE can only change magnitudes' date=' but not directions, you can. It would mean that all objects still exert a gravitic force on each other, but it becomes stronger or weaker (or maybe even negative). If you think "sideways gravity" is to powerful/flexible for CE to be able to do (and I don't disagree), this is a simple restriction you can use to prevent it.[/quote']

 

First off, such a power is too powerful to be directly in the hands of a character -- PC, NPC, DNPC, whatever. It can be a power that a vehicle or base has for it's occupants (like in a spaceship that has it's own "internal gravity"). Take the USS Voyager for instance. While landing on a planetary surface, if it were to become inverted, the occupants wouldn't suddenly fall to the ceiling. The ship's environmental gravity overrides the external gravity -- up to a point. IMO it should only overcome so much “external gravity” -- any more “bleeds though” the power and still imparts some of it’s effects on the occupants. Yes, depending upon one's frame of reference this could be viewed as reversing the polarity field of the gravity. But we're concerned with what an occupant experiences, not what an outside observer might see. This means that the polarity hasn’t changed -- just the frame’s orientation.

 

As an "Environmental Power", I viewed it as having it's "direction" defined when purchased, and can't generally be altered later on (I believe this methodology to be reasonably consistent with Hero System). For characters who want to be able to exert “gravitic like F/X of powers" (like "sideways gravity"), they have to continue to use the regular ways of purchasing those powers (like TK or Flight UAA).

 

! Flight is *very* different from free-fall. If you're at the same distance from the earth as the moon' date=' and you double the force of earth's gravity on you, all that will happen is you'll fall twice as fast as you were falling before. You have no control over the fall or where you land or any way to slow down (other than by the natural air resistance, which will probably be almost as deadly as the landing). And if you are close enough to the moon when you start, you'll fall toward the moon instead. That's not the same thing as flight at all.[/quote']

 

First off, a character will not have direct access to this, and thus not be able to cause him or others to free-fall in a direction & acceleration of his choosing. IMO this power is constrained by a definite “frame” (like the insides of a vehicle or base). Anything that affects the frame directly so as to make it move in a desired direction should be bought as an appropriate movement power.

 

Take the Commonwealth books by Alan Dean Foster. In those books, the drive the ships use is a gravitic drive, projecting a point source of gravity in front of the ship that pulls the ship forwards. Because of this application (moving the ship), this is bought as Flight and/or FTL Movement – with the F/X of “gravity-drive”.

 

I don't know how to do that.

 

I've attached a bitmap version for you. The image quality isn't as good as it probably once was, having been though the .jpg and .art wringers. I'd suggest either leaving it as a bitmap, or using .png to preserve what quality is left.

[Gary]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

I think a major problem with gravity and Str in general is that realistically, a character has x2 End cost on Str when he lifts above 1/2 or so of his lifting capacity, and x4 or more End cost when lifting at his lift capacity. So a 20 Str character may be able to lift 400 kg, but not nearly as long as he can in Champions terms where if he has 8 Rec and 2 Spd, he could keep it up almost indefinitely. Especially if he voluntarily reduces his Spd to 1.

 

Perhaps there should be a rule that if you're above 1/2 of your lift capacity, you pay End at least every 2 segments, and if you're above 3/4 or so of your lift capacity, you pay End every segment. So the 20 Str person pays 2 End per every 2 segments (unless his Spd is 7+) if he's lifting 200+ kg, and pays 2 End every segment if he's lifting 300+ kg.

[ghost-angel]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

Especially if he voluntarily reduces his Spd to 1.

You can only reduce your SPD to 2, IIRC.

 

/nit

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

I remember a 2 player arcade game from a long time ago called Space Wars. For it's time' date=' I liked it. Heh, now I’m showing my age.[/quote']

Yes. I remember Space Wars. That wasn't even the one i was thinking of!

 

I have to disagree with you. Any description of how a power is generated is at least a part of, if not the whole of, the F/X of the power. Whether a power affects the gravitational force in an area by changing G, or redirecting the gravitons, or by "warping space" -- those are the F/X of the powers. Just because one "utilizes" a real-world Newtonian formula in its explanation doesn't change that.

It doesn't have to "utilize a real-world Newtonian fomula" at all. There is no giant gravity knob stuck on the side of the universe somewhere that some superbeing could use to change the value of G like adjusting a thermostat. G is a description of the way gravity works, not a desciption of how it may be altered. "Changing G" is not a special effect (unless the character really does have access to the "G-Knob"). It's just the result of what he does. Just like "20 degrees Fahrenheit" is not a SFX, it's just a description of a possible temperature of, say, ice. "Ice" is the SFX, "20 degrees" is just a description of a physical property of the ice.

 

First off, such a power is too powerful to be directly in the hands of a character -- PC, NPC, DNPC, whatever. It can be a power that a vehicle or base has for it's occupants (like in a spaceship that has it's own "internal gravity").

Why couldn't a character have this power? I agree that altering gravity to "any strength, any direction" is too much to fit within a Change Environment. But TK, AE is well in line with what a character might have. If a vehicle can have a gravity generator, why not a character?

 

First off, a character will not have direct access to this,

Why not?

 

and thus not be able to cause him or others to free-fall in a direction & acceleration of his choosing.

I didn't say he gets to choose the direction and acceleration. I specifically said that he does *not*. He will fall based on the (altered) gravity. Toward whatever object has the greates value of mass/(distance^2). He might also have Flight or Gliding to help him land safely. As well as PD/ED to protect him from burning up in the atmosphere and hitting the ground. As well as Life Support to deal with conditions on the surface.

[SteveZilla]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

It doesn't have to "utilize a real-world Newtonian fomula" at all. There is no giant gravity knob stuck on the side of the universe somewhere that some superbeing could use to change the value of G like adjusting a thermostat.

 

Unless you're Q.

 

G is a description of the way gravity works' date=' not a desciption of how it may be altered. "Changing G" is not a special effect (unless the character really does have access to the "G-Knob"). It's just the result of what he does. Just like "20 degrees Fahrenheit" is not a SFX, it's just a description of a possible temperature of, say, ice. "Ice" is the SFX, "20 degrees" is just a description of a physical property of the ice.[/quote']

 

Actually, I thought G was mainly to make the numbers come out as observed, given the measurement units being used. I.e., it's a unitless number, but it makes the whole F=G*M1*M2/D^2 and F=MA fit the observations (given the observed mass [apple] and how it's accelerated [falls]).

 

Why couldn't a character have this power? I agree that altering gravity to "any strength, any direction" is too much to fit within a Change Environment. But TK, AE is well in line with what a character might have. If a vehicle can have a gravity generator, why not a character?

 

 

Why not?

 

There are clear rules for breaking out of a TK grab (or entangle), but no such rules exist for breaking out of a "gravity field". The effects of a TK grab (or entangle) are clearly defined in the system. The effects of greater or lesser G-forces are not clearly defined. Extrapolating real-world effects of an altered gravity field

 

I didn't say he gets to choose the direction and acceleration. I specifically said that he does *not*. He will fall based on the (altered) gravity. Toward whatever object has the greatest value of mass/(distance^2).

 

I thought that control over acceleration was directly implied even if all one has control over is the gravitational constant in his own hex. It's true that he would have no control over which gravitating body is exerting it's influence on him, but careful control and timing would let him "slingshot" around smaller objects that are close to his original path, thereby changing his course. And presuming he can make G be any value positive or negative, he can also exert a braking or accelerating force upon himself.

[LunaRagno]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

Yeah - all that and a bag of peanuts.

 

Che cosa? I maybe am missing a joke, or a reference, but this sounds dismissive. Are you brushing away all I have said? Or not understanding it?

 

Clarify, please, I ask you.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

I did this for a ship I made.

 

Environmental Control: can alter inter ship environment (Gravity and Temp): Change Environment 64" radius, +3 Temperature Level Adjustment, -2 Dex Roll and all Skill Rolls based on Characteristic, -2 Str Roll and all Skill Rolls based on Characteristic, -3 Temperature Level Adjustment, -6" Superleap (-1" per Gravity above 1 g), -6" Swimming (-1" per Gravity above 1 g), -6" Flight (-1" per Gravity above 1 g), -6" Running (-1" per Gravity above 1 g), Multiple Combat Effects; Require maintenance once every two weeks (-1/2), Only works inside ship, functions indepedently in each compartment (-1/2)

 

Yes it isn't totally correct but it does simulate gravity.

[ghost-angel]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

Che cosa? I maybe am missing a joke, or a reference, but this sounds dismissive. Are you brushing away all I have said? Or not understanding it?

 

Clarify, please, I ask you.

 

ah no, sorry. I was agreeing with you and then some.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

Actually' date=' I thought G was mainly to make the numbers come out as observed, given the measurement units being used. I.e., it's a unitless number, but it makes the whole F=G*M1*M2/D^2 and F=MA fit the observations (given the observed mass [apple'] and how it's accelerated [falls]).

Well, yeah, sort of. G is the number that comes out based on the observed measurements. It's not a unitless number, it's in units of "force times distance squared divided by mass squared" which can be expressed in a number of other ways that you can look up yourself if you're interested. The numerical value depends on what units you're using, e.g., metric or English.

 

There are clear rules for breaking out of a TK grab (or entangle), but no such rules exist for breaking out of a "gravity field".

Sure there are! Just like for any other Change Environment. You could leave the affected area, or you can beat on the person/thing generating the gravity field until he/it stops. There are also Drain, Dispel, and Suppress.

 

I thought that control over acceleration was directly implied even if all one has control over is the gravitational constant in his own hex. It's true that he would have no control over which gravitating body is exerting it's influence on him, but careful control and timing would let him "slingshot" around smaller objects that are close to his original path, thereby changing his course. And presuming he can make G be any value positive or negative, he can also exert a braking or accelerating force upon himself.

Are we talking about the same thing here? I would no more allow this with a "control gravity" CE than I would allow someone to fly with a "control winds" CE. And I don't think anyone else would either. Just because it's called "gravity manipulation" doesn't mean it should be allowed to do more than any other Change Environment.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: STR vs. Gravity

 

The difficulty here, if I'm understanding it, is that if you use an AoE TK to simulate a gravity control power... someone can roll well enough, break the TK, still be in the area of effect, and then act as they please as if there were no increased gravity field. On the other hand, if it's done via some kind of CE, there's no way you can "break out" of the effect, remain within the area, and act as if it doesn't affect you.