UOO Math Check

[Cosmosemeritus]

Even though there is an excellent example on page 276 of 5ER, I wanted to make sure I have the math right on the UOO - Differing Modifiers construct, if I may. 'Character' below refers to the character purchasing the ability to give the granted power to the target.

 

B = Base Cost of granted power

a = sum of advantages of power for the target

A = sum of advantages of power for the character

c = sum of limitations of power for the target

C = sum of limitation of power for the character

 

Real Cost = [b*(1+a)/(1+c)]*(1+A)/(1+C)

 

Example: A fantasy spell that grants the target the ability to breathe fire like a dragon. The granted power is 6d6 EB, AE: Cone (+1), No Range (-½). The casting requires the UOO advantage (+¼), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼) and RSR (-½). The spell itself has no range and the target only has the power as long as he/she/it remains within LOS of the casting character.

 

Real Cost = [30*(1+1)/(1+½)]*(1+¼)/(1+1)

= [30*(2)/(1½)]*(1¼)/(2)

= [40]*(1¼)/(2)

= 25 Points

 

Did I get this right?

 

My thanks for any input.

[Steve Long]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

I'm sorry, but I generally don't check over peoples' math. I've moved this to "Discussion" so that anyone who's interested in doing so can.

[Bloodstone]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

Did I get this right?

 

My thanks for any input.

 

Nope. It should be 67 active points, 27 real cost.

 

30 * 2.25= 67.5

 

67.5 / 2.5 = 27

[Simon]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

The cost is correct as originally calculated:

 

(Total: 45 Active Cost, 25 Real Cost) EB 6d6, Area Of Effect (7" Cone; +1) (60 Active Points); No Range (-1/2) (Real Cost: 40) plus Naked Modifier: Usable By Other (+1/4); Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) for up to 40 Active Points (-15 Active Points) (Real Cost: -15)

[Bloodstone]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

doh! I mised tyhat he was using UOO as a naked advantage

[Dust Raven]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

Okay, I'm confused. Is Cosmosemeritus' formula correct? I don't care about the math in his example, I just want to know if the formula he used is the right and true way to create a Power with Modifiers you can give someone else, but has different Modifiers on the "give to others" part. This has always confused me and just when I thought I got it I say this thread and it's thrown everything into question again.

[Sean Waters]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

Well it is right if the UOO is a seperate spell that grants a power i.e. is bought as a naked advantage. I can't see any good reason to allow that construct though. Unless it is meant to indicate you CAN'T grant the power to yourself. Then dandy.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

Cosmosemeritus didn't say anything about it being a naked modifier. And even if it was, it wouldn't have a *lower* cost than buying it normally. And it should never cost "negative 15" points to add on UOO.

 

I believe Bloodstone's original calculation is correct. Cosmosemeritus's formula is correct, except that the UOO advantage is included as part of "a" not part of "A" - other advantages for the granter besides UOO should be part of "A".

 

Uh. I think. Now I've confused myself.

[ghost-angel]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

Well it is right if the UOO is a seperate spell that grants a power i.e. is bought as a naked advantage. I can't see any good reason to allow that construct though. Unless it is meant to indicate you CAN'T grant the power to yourself. Then dandy.

 

Welcome Back (it's been months since I've seen you post, I was missing the over analyzation and discussions).

 

It is the intent of "Different Modifiers" that the UOO used this way is indeed "Not usuable by the caster at all."

 

Phil - the whole dang thing is explained on 5ER p276.

 

The cost uf UOO done this way can, in fact, be LESS than the cost of the power itself originally.

 

As such:

Power X + Advantages = Active Points X(+ Limitations) = Real Points X.

Now addin UOO with it's own set of Advantages/Limitations applied to just itself. It is, in fact, mechanically a Naked Modifier.

The happy little trick is ... Instead of using Actuve Points X as the base for cost, it uses Real Points X for the base of the cost thusly:

Naked Modifier UOO applied to Real Points X as Active Points UOO (+ Advantages) = Final Active Points UOO (+ Limitations) = Final Real Points UOO.

 

I hope that makes sense. I'll add numbers just in case:

 

Happy Wings: Flight 10" (no Advantages) = 20 Active Points Flight (+ Limitation: Restrainable) = 13 Real Points Flight.

Grant Flight: UOO for 10" of Happy Wings uses 13 as the AP to apply the math to [not 20] = (13 * 1.25 = 16 Active Points) + (Limitations Gestures, Incantations; 16 / 1.5) = 11 Real Points Total.

 

So it costs only 11 Points to have the ability to grant any one person the ability to fly 10", but you can't use it on yourself.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

Phil - the whole dang thing is explained on 5ER p276.

Yes, I'll have to read it again when I get home.

 

The cost uf UOO done this way can, in fact, be LESS than the cost of the power itself originally.

Yes, of course, but that's not what I meant. I meant buying a Naked Advantage UOO, shouldn't cost less than buying the power with UOO built-in, not as a naked advantage.

 

So it costs only 11 Points to have the ability to grant any one person the ability to fly 10", but you can't use it on yourself.

I thought you could use it on yourself. You just can't use it on yourself and the other guy at the same time. I'll look it up.

 

BTW, did anything change with UOO between FREd and 5ER? (I don't have 5ER.)

[ghost-angel]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

Yes, I'll have to read it again when I get home.

 

 

Yes, of course, but that's not what I meant. I meant buying a Naked Advantage UOO, shouldn't cost less than buying the power with UOO built-in, not as a naked advantage.

 

 

I thought you could use it on yourself. You just can't use it on yourself and the other guy at the same time. I'll look it up.

 

BTW, did anything change with UOO between FREd and 5ER? (I don't have 5ER.)

 

This is a special case of UOO using "Differing Modifiers". It is not the same as buying UOO on a Power, or buying UOO as a stand alone Naked Modifier. It's a whole monster unto itself.

 

In the specific case of Differing Modifiers, you are building a Power intended only to be grantable to others, never usable by yourself.

 

The idea is that Granting the Power has a different set of Modifiers than the Power itself has (it requires Incantations to give the power to someone, but they don't need to Incant once they have it to use).

 

FREd pg 177, same wording as 5ER. So no change between the to.

 

All this specifically applies to Differing Modifiers, the subsection head you will need to reference for this issue.

[Dust Raven]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

So it costs only 11 Points to have the ability to grant any one person the ability to fly 10", but you can't use it on yourself.

Why can you never use it on yourself? Sure it costs less than if you just bought it plain, but it also carries additional Limitations to setup and includes extra time to active that isn't even included in the cost (one phase to give it to oneself, then can active on a following Phase), unless giving someone a Power through UOO is not considered an attack action. I'm actually not sure, but I think it is, or at least it should be.

 

At any rate, I'm home, have 5ER nearby and will be reading p276 now...

[gojira]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

Real Cost = [b*(1+a)/(1+c)]*(1+A)/(1+C)

 

I just wanted to point out that multiplication is commutative. Thus, above you don't need the brackets.

 

R (real cost) = B *(1+a)/(1+c) * (1+A)/(1+C).

 

You could also say:

 

R = B* (1+a) * (1+A) / ((1+c)*(1+C))

 

Or any number of other algebraic manipulations. It does not matter what order you apply the Advantages and Limitations. (If it does, you did something wrong).

 

Example: Happy Wings, UOO. 10" Flight (20 pts) UOO (+1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Restrainable (-1/2). 20 * 1.25 / 1.25 / 1.25 / 1.5 = 10.6667 pts (rounds up to 11).

 

One advantage to doing it this way is you can see that the 1.25/1.25 cancels, and you don't need to do it. 20 / 1.25 / 1.5 = 10.6667. Easy.

[ghost-angel]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

I just wanted to point out that multiplication is commutative. Thus, above you don't need the brackets.

 

R (real cost) = B *(1+a)/(1+c) * (1+A)/(1+C).

 

You could also say:

 

R = B* (1+a) * (1+A) / ((1+c)*(1+C))

 

Or any number of other algebraic manipulations. It does not matter what order you apply the Advantages and Limitations. (If it does, you did something wrong).

 

Example: Happy Wings, UOO. 10" Flight (20 pts) UOO (+1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Restrainable (-1/2). 20 * 1.25 / 1.25 / 1.25 / 1.5 = 10.6667 pts (rounds up to 11).

 

One advantage to doing it this way is you can see that the 1.25/1.25 cancels, and you don't need to do it. 20 / 1.25 / 1.5 = 10.6667. Easy.

 

Except that by proper HERO Math it's really: (20 * 1.25)/(1+.25+.25+.5) = 12.5 = 12 Real Points.

 

PEMDAS still says Parathensis MATTER. Don't braket the right things and you get a wrong answer.

[ghost-angel]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

Oh - and this weird little UOO thing is only useful/intended when the Base Power Being Granted has DIFFERENT Limitations than the UOO Portion of the Advantage/Power.

[Cosmosemeritus]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

I just wanted to point out that multiplication is commutative. Thus, above you don't need the brackets.

 

R (real cost) = B *(1+a)/(1+c) * (1+A)/(1+C).

 

You could also say:

 

R = B* (1+a) * (1+A) / ((1+c)*(1+C))

Very true.

The brackets were intended to make the formula recognizable and to create a visible distinction between the 'inner' power and the 'outer' one. No algebraic value was intended to be implied.

You could multiply it all out to (B+BA+Ba+BAa)/(1+C+c+Cc) but then it doesn't resemble the basic real cost function.

Or any number of other algebraic manipulations. It does not matter what order you apply the Advantages and Limitations. (If it does' date=' you did something wrong).[/quote']

But it does matter as division is not comutative.

Example: Happy Wings, UOO. 10" Flight (20 pts) UOO (+1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Restrainable (-1/2). 20 * 1.25 / 1.25 / 1.25 / 1.5 = 10.6667 pts (rounds up to 11).

 

One advantage to doing it this way is you can see that the 1.25/1.25 cancels, and you don't need to do it. 20 / 1.25 / 1.5 = 10.6667. Easy.

You aren't applying the limitations correctly for your example. You don't get to divide by (1 + Lim) for each limitation. You divide by (1 + sum of all limitations). It should read 20 * 1.25 / 2 as 2 = (1 + .25 + .25 + .5). Which is 12.5.

 

Your example also doesn't demonstrate the original issue, which is the UOO-Differing Modifiers construct. If you intended the Restrainable limitation to apply to the target but the other modifiers to apply to the bestowing character you should make a distiinction that demonstrates this. I prefer to write such out like:

Happy Wings. [10" Flight (20 pts), Restrainable (-½)] UOO (+1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4).

 

It is the math for this construct that my OP is inquiring about. Its not so much about the algebra, as much as it is about the translation of the english used to describe this construct in the book.

Am I translating the language in the book into math in an acceptible manner?

[ghost-angel]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

Happy Wings. [10" Flight (20 pts)' date= Restrainable (-½)] UOO (+1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4).

 

It is the math for this construct that my OP is inquiring about. Its not so much about the algebra, as much as it is about the translation of the english used to describe this construct in the book.

Am I translating the language in the book into math in an acceptible manner?

 

Yes.

[gojira]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

Yeah, I goofed. I mistook the original formula for a genrealized Hero system forumla. It ain't, it's specific to the UOO Advantage.

 

Ignore my babblings.

[ghost-angel]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

Yeah, I goofed. I mistook the original formula for a genrealized Hero system forumla. It ain't, it's specific to the UOO Advantage.

 

Ignore my babblings.

 

It's cool, it's a relatively obscure use of UOO anyway.

[Cosmosemeritus]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

Thanks for the input on this most esoteric of constructs.

 

Rep all around.

 

Except for G-A, who apparently I've repp'd too much lately.

[Cosmosemeritus]

Re: UOO Math Check

 

two years later and I still can't rep G-A *sighs*