Throwing...

[Lord Liaden]

We seem to have two perspectives on the issue here: those who want to redesign the throwing rules so that every sufficiently strong character can perform eaxceptionally long throws; and those who want some construct that a character can buy that will give it that ability.

 

As I indicated in my earlier post, I fall into the latter camp, and this thread demonstrates that it wouldn't be hard to come up with such a construct, or to tailor it so that it wouldn't be too unbalancing. IMHO if you want to redesign the throwing rules, you'd also need to redesign the leaping rules for consistency so that all Hulk-strong characters could perform Hulk-distance leaps.

 

Since these abilities are only possessed by comic-book characters, I for one am not too stressed if the physics details are rather stretched.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by cboscari

How come I can't throw stuff around then? In the manner of the comic books?

You can throw stuff around like they do in the comic books; you just have to pay points for it. You pay for everything in the HERO System. For example:

 

Q: How come I can't FLY around then? In the manner of the comic books?

A: You can fly around like they do in comic books; you just have to pay for it by buying Energy Blast.

 

Q: How come I can't shoot beam from my eyes? In the manner of the comic books

A: You can shoot beams from your yes like they do in comic books; you just have to pay for it by buying Flight.

 

Get the picture?

 

The HERO System says here are the basic rules. If you want to exceed those rules you do so with Powers, Skills, Talents, and Perks. The rules do not state that everyone can leap 50 miles. The rules state you can leap "X" amount, and if you want to leap more you buy either additional Leaping, additional Non-Combat Leaping, or Mega-Scale on your leaping. You do not need to change the entire structure of how Leaping works in the game. You just buy the correct combinations of Powers which allow you to simulate the desired affect beyond the normal rules. The same effect holds true for throwing.

[J4y]

A: You can shoot beams from your yes like they do in comic books; you just have to pay for it by buying Flight.

 

Found that funny, otherwise I'm in agreement with Monolith. If Hulk wants to occasionally throw or jump really far, buy the skill with a bunch of negatives like extra END so it point-wise it's not too burdensome and it also makes it less appealing so it doesn't get used often.

 

Tossing Nighthawk out of the battle is a good point though. Some powers end up just being too effective for their points. Thats something GMs would have to balance. Maybe allowing/requiring opponents to reduce distance by opposing with their own strength (conceptually a weird mechanic), otherwise 2 big slow bricks could hurl each other back and forth across the city forever and never really fight.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by J4y

Found that funny, otherwise I'm in agreement with Monolith. If Hulk wants to occasionally throw or jump really far, buy the skill with a bunch of negatives like extra END so it point-wise it's not too burdensome and it also makes it less appealing so it doesn't get used often.

That is what I get for cutting and pasting.

 

I was thinking that "Super Throw" might make for an interesing new Talent. Fantasy Hero, for example, is full of new Talents which expaned the rules structure. I think that same effect could be worked into a Super Throw talent for bricks. Something along the lines of each 3 points in the talent allows you to double your throwing distance. Something like that would help maintain game balance without being too costly to the character who wanted the long-distance throws.

[Klytus]

Originally posted by Monolith

TI was thinking that "Super Throw" might make for an interesing new Talent. Fantasy Hero, for example, is full of new Talents which expaned the rules structure. I think that same effect could be worked into a Super Throw talent for bricks. Something along the lines of each 3 points in the talent allows you to double your throwing distance. Something like that would help maintain game balance without being too costly to the character who wanted the long-distance throws.

 

Oh! I like this idea. A lot. I may steal it. I might also have to go get Fantasy Hero once I have the ca$h for it...

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Klytus

I might also have to go get Fantasy Hero once I have the ca$h for it...

Fantasy Hero has lots of good stuff in it. By my rough count it has 23 new Talents, and 3-4 of those have variant versions as well. Most of them would work pretty well in non-fantasy games as well.

[Klytus]

As the Fantasy genre is my favorite, and having bought all the 4th Ed Fantasy Hero stuff, the 5th Ed Fantasy Hero has been on my "I want this" list anyway.

 

My main hope is that it has a good magic system.

 

D&D magic is OK, but very limited. Mage: the Ascension is very good, only there is no limit to how much magic you can use except for Paradox, which I don't lik eeither. I've heard wonderful things about Ars Magica, only I've never given it a serious look.

 

::And now, a very lame attempt to get the thread back on topic::

 

At the very least, are there any good spells for throwing things?

[dbcowboy]

Well let me just say that I'm not concerned about whether or not the Hulk in Champions can throw a tank as far as he can in the movie. In 40 years of the comic the character hasn't been presented consistently so while one writer might have him juggling tug boats another might show him straining to lift a tractor-trailer for purely dramatic effect.

 

My issue is with the difference between how much characters can lift vs. how far characters can throw. One doubles linearly, the other does not and I can't come up with any reason I feel comfortable with to justify the disparity. Leverage when lifting doesn't do it for me. Two hand's lifting vs. one throwing doesn't fit. I don't care what the distance is, if another character is twice as strong as the first the distance they chunk the same object should be more than just a pittance farther than the first. If a third character is 4x as strong I expect to see that same object land waaaaay the heck out there from where the first person was able to throw it.

 

Now, as far as how to build a power to allow a character to throw something an incredible distance, hmmm, here's one thought I had:

Super Throw: Flight 1", Megascale (1"=1km +1/4), Reduced Endurance 0 End(+1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (those were to eliminate need for LOS after toss target), Usable As Attack (x1024 Mass so can toss something as heavy as a tank +3 1/2) - 11 Active Points, Target must be immobilized/unconscious (-1/2), Extra Time Delayed Phase, Only to Activate Persistent Power (gotta wind up for the pitch) (-1/4) - Cost: 6 points

 

Same power but 2" of flight for a 2km throw would cost 13 points.

 

So, for 6 points I can put another character with very little movement 500 hexes away and effectively out of combat and probably unhurt (assuming I'm able to subdue them in the first place).

 

That of course begs the question, if they're subdued, why would I throw them away? If I'm a villain, rather than spend my attack action tossing them away, I think I'd rather hit them again to ensure they're out for the rest of the fight and haul them off to my secret lair for my clever death-trap. If I'm a hero, I think I'd rather hit them again to ensure they're out for the rest of the fight and haul them off to jail.

 

Now, it's an awesome GM tool: Grond lifts the overturned police car above his head and with a roar of unbridled rage sends it hurtling straight up. The screams of the trapped officers fade as the vehicle grows smaller and smaller in the distance. Then it seems to stop shrinking and you realize it's reached it's apex and has begun to plummet back to earth. What do you do? What DO you do?

 

Or maybe a villain drops one of the fallen heroes without life support 1km off shore, forcing the group's speedster to rush to save them from drowning. Either way, no hero's going to do either of these things (that's code against killing, not code against thrilling).

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Actually, I'd probably do it with Uncontrolled instead of the hairy mess you put there, thus:

 

Flight, 1", Megascale (1" = 1km, +¼), Useable as Attack (1 Object, +1), Uncontrolled (+½) (6 Actives); Must Be Able to Lift Object (-½), Minimum Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Max END = Cost x Phases Used to 'Wind Up' (-¼): 3 Points, 1 END.

 

The actual active cost on this 1" is 5.5, real cost is 2.444. 2" would be 11 Actives, 5 Real; this also rewards the 'spinning hammerthrow' effect, sending the object really flying.

[dbcowboy]

Originally posted by Wyrm Ouroboros

Actually, I'd probably do it with Uncontrolled instead of the hairy mess you put there, thus:

 

Flight, 1", Megascale (1" = 1km, +¼), Useable as Attack (1 Object, +1), Uncontrolled (+½) (6 Actives); Must Be Able to Lift Object (-½), Minimum Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Max END = Cost x Phases Used to 'Wind Up' (-¼): 3 Points, 1 END.

 

Definitely like the Must Be Able to Lift Object limitation better than my approach of just buying up the needed mass. Certainly better reflects what the character could do if they were hit with a Str drain before they tried to throw something. So, for every phase they wind up, they put the endurance spent into powering the flight, right? I like your approach a lot.

 

I was also considering some kind of Limitation to reflect the fact that once the object is released, you can't change it's direction. You wind up for 3 phases and send the tank hurtling 3km over the next 3 phases. Next phase the GM informs you that you've just put in on a collision corse with an inbound 747. Oooops. Unlike normal flight you can't have it turn once released. Is that limiting enough for a -1/4 or just -0?

 

Either way, I still ask the question: Is this unbalancing? Is throwing an object very far unbalancing against characters with low movement rates? I don't see that it is really anything more than a SFX or something occasionally useful (tossing a bomb out of range to save the norms). Haven't come up with a situation when it would be reasonable for anyone other than the GM to toss another character away and then only to give the players a good role-playing situation.

 

If long throws are unbalancing, then consider any large movement power:

Phase 1) grab opponent

Phase 2) see movement power below:

- Swimming, 10" - (1" = 1000km) - "I hear the Marianas Trench is nice this time of year, would you like to see it?" Heck, anywhere on the bottom against an opponent with no life support is gonna be rough, don't need 1" - 1000km advantage.

- Flight, 10" - (1" - 1km) - move by on cloud with opponent 3 km straight up, didn't do much dmg to the cloud, see if opponent feel comforted by that when they hit the ground after falling from that height

- Running, 10" - (1" - 1km) - same as flight, just run a half move away and release your hold, see how long it takes them to get back

- Teleport + x2 mass (so at least one other normal sized person) and some Megascale - pick any of the above, up in the air, out to sea, next town, it's all bad

 

So, just about any character with large movement powers could do these, just because they bought their movement. Don't see that the option to throw things long distances is any difference for the Str a brick bought.

 

Dunno, any of this seem reasonable or am I on crack?

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Originally posted by dbcowboy

I was also considering some kind of Limitation to reflect the fact that once the object is released, you can't change it's direction. You wind up for 3 phases and send the tank hurtling 3km over the next 3 phases.

 

Well, 'Useable As Attack' takes control out of the target's hands; 'Uncontrolled' takes control out of the thrower's hands. It's pretty much already self-defined as being 'once you get started, you can't change a thing'. Of course, the way to stop the 'uncontrolled' bit is if the target has Flight or Gliding themselves. (Great way of getting Gliders started.)

 

Either way, I still ask the question: Is this unbalancing? Is throwing an object very far unbalancing against characters with low movement rates?

 

I don't think of 'amazing throws' as being unbalancing at all, so long as it is considered 'in the genre', e.g. I would not permit such a power in a Dark Champions game, which is much more 'realistic' than a Four Color or Bronze Age of Comics campaign. If they ARE unbalancing, then tone down what your 'Megascale' scale is -- instead of 1" = 1km, perhaps 1" = 10" to start. Go up from there.