Throwing...

[Ndreare]

For people comenting on the HERO throwing rules (The worst thing about the system) what other options have you come up with?

 

 

I will start.

 

1: A chracter may throw an object weighing up to his max lift 1 hex. For every five points over the requiredstrength to lift the object the throwing distance doubles. (Simple but does not include limits like rea life.)

 

2: a Character may throw an obect a distance equal to remaining Strength/5 Squared. (Again simple but does not include limits like rea life.)

 

3: Include realistic limitations if you want by saying no throwing range may exceed Base STR/2 Squared =10 STR - 25 hexes, 30 STR - 225 hexes.

 

Then allow the character to add Skill Levels to STR for range Calculations.

 

 

Now its your turn. Tell me what is good\bad aboute my system and show me yours.

[Lord Liaden]

For my part, I'm generally satisfied with the throwing rules as is for characters with normal human level strength; the only place where the existing rules could be said to fall short IMHO is in dealing with the prodigious throwing displayed by some superhuman characters in comics.

 

I remember a discussion of the rationale for relative throwing distances on the old boards. One poster who was a former college football linebacker remarked that although he was more than twice as strong as the team quarterback in terms of what he could lift, the quarterback could throw a football multiples of the distance that he could. The argument was that throwing for distance is at least as much a matter of talent and skill as it is raw strength. The same thing applies to jumping long distances; as an example, I've always noticed that the Hulk's ability to travel by enormous leaps far exceeds that of most other Marvel characters who are otherwise of comparable strength to him.

 

IMHO it's a good thing that HERO Leaping rules do not grant exceptional distances based solely on Strength, but can add that ability to characters if their concept justifies it; there's a reasonable rationale for it, and there are already enough benefits to high Strength. The same reasoning should apply to extra-long throws, via some mechanism that you can apply in addition to the normal rules.

 

The mechanism I'm trying it is to apply MegaScale to a character's Strength to increase the scale of his or her throwing distance. I already have a couple of brick characters in my campaign built with MegaScale on their Strength to allow for exceptional throws. The trick is not to have MegaScale apply all the time, since it would make STR unusable for HTH combat or any other common use on a personal scale. One of our characters has MegaScale as a Naked Advantage, while the other has it as part of Variable Advantages. My ruling is that after a character picks up an object or Grabs an opponent, he would have to "switch" to MegaScale for the really long throw. Since the Grab is an attack action, the character has to wait until his next Phase before he can switch the Advantage; we run this delay as the character "winding up." A Grabbed victim could use the interim to try to escape from the Grab, or the thrower could be attacked by the victim's allies before he lets fly - this is intended to help balance the potential for a combatant being thrown so far that he can't get back to the combat before it's finished.

 

I also restrict the MegaScale distance to throwing, not Leaping based on Strength, because the system already has a Power and mechanism for enhanced Leaping.

 

I'm quite open to other suggestions, though. Ndreare, for the reasons I describe above I think that your idea of applying Skill Levels to throwing distance has merit. Perhaps a variation on Combat Skill Levels adding to Damage Class in heroic level games, so that every two CSL that a character has with Throwing something could be used to increase the distance thrown by a set amount, or maybe some multiple. For the rest, though, IMHO the increases in throwing distance multiply too quickly for characters with normal human strength throwing something very light like a baseball or grenade.

[Ndreare]

How about an adder simmular to the ones applied to movement powers were a character for five points can double his "Non-Com" throwing distance. Meaning by spending a full phase and dropping to 0-DCV they can increase the throw?

 

I personaly think mega scale is just a little to over the top and have yet to see a situation other than space were I liked it.

[Lord Liaden]

I've seen the Adder suggestion raised before, and it's certainly consistent with the Movement mechanics. My main hesitation over using it is that while Movement functions as a set amount based on the Active Points in it, to which you apply an Adder at a discrete number of Character Points to increase it, throwing distance is variable based on the amount of Strength you have compared to the weight you're trying to throw. I prefer an Advantage approach because it's proportionate to the amount of Strength that the character possesses.

 

I think I grasp your dislike for MegaScale in these circumstances, but since at the initial +1/4 level you can define the increase in scale as anything below 1" = 1 kilometer, a relatively small increase in scale is just as easy to define.

[Morningstar]

You can also use the example that guys like Kobe Bryant have some of the best leaping ability in the world but are far from the strongest.

 

In reality, super speed would also make a huge difference in throwing things that are within your ability to throw with one hand. Baseball, knife etc. The Flash would be able to throw a baseball much further than the Hulk.

 

This is one of those areas that physics can just be thrown out the window and forgoten, trying to make sense of it is pointless.

 

Great ideas for the throwing mechanics by using megascale. Trying to match comics is tough. You better put that megascale on knockback too

[Doug McCrae]

The old DC Heroes rules were great for this IMO. You could do any sort of high end weight/strength/distance calculation really easily. I'd just use them.

[dbcowboy]

Tom McCarthy put forth reasons for distance doubling every +10 Str in the original Movie Hulk Throwing thread and I have to agree. I've been playing with the numbers a little bit more since my last post and I like the way they play out when you have distance double every +10 Str (4x as strong). That's for a running throw, say standing doubles at +15 Str and prone at +20. This seems to play better with my idea of comic book superhero physics.

 

The megascale approach is intersting but I'm curious, how would you handle the situation where a character uses a megascale throw to launch an opponent through several buildings? Granted, this might also be a real problem using the alternate formula for throwing outlined above for sufficiently strong characters.

 

I also agree that throwing is as much an issue of skill as strength. For distance I'd treat this as extra levels of Strength, only usable when calculating distance an object is thrown (-1). To actually hit something with what was thrown would be combat skill levels.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by dbcowboy

The megascale approach is intersting but I'm curious, how would you handle the situation where a character uses a megascale throw to launch an opponent through several buildings?

The way that DEF & BODY of building are set up it is virtually impossible for someone to be thrown through 4 walls of a normal house let alone through several buildings (it takes 7 BODY to get through an outside wall and 6 BODY to get through an inside wall. Assuming 2 inside and 2 outside walls the throw would need to have 26 BODY of force behind it. The 130 STR Hulk would just make it, on average).

[ZootSoot]

Anyone else remember the old Murphy's Rukes bit about Champions throwing rules? Something bout an infant being able to rifle a football an extraordinary distance . . .

[Bartman]

Originally posted by Monolith

The way that DEF & BODY of building are set up it is virtually impossible for someone to be thrown through 4 walls of a normal house let alone through several buildings (it takes 7 BODY to get through an outside wall and 6 BODY to get through an inside wall. Assuming 2 inside and 2 outside walls the throw would need to have 26 BODY of force behind it. The 130 STR Hulk would just make it, on average).

I've seen house rules that state that if an object has less than half the def+body of the inches in knockback then it is counted as if it were being attacked with casual strength. Ie it doesn't take any inches off of the knockback. Thus somenone taking 14 inches of knockback would be slowed by normal walls at all.

[dbcowboy]

Originally posted by Monolith

The way that DEF & BODY of building are set up it is virtually impossible for someone to be thrown through 4 walls of a normal house let alone through several buildings (it takes 7 BODY to get through an outside wall and 6 BODY to get through an inside wall. Assuming 2 inside and 2 outside walls the throw would need to have 26 BODY of force behind it. The 130 STR Hulk would just make it, on average).

 

Ah, yeah I think I understand. When I first read the megascale throw I thought 1km = 500 hexes so (using your 26 body above) you could fast-ball someone through roughly 19 buildings (that's not really accounting for space inside the building, it'd be way less than that) if a character had only 1" of megascale throwing. I think what you're saying though is that it'd still only count as 1" of throwing (just with a megascale range) and 1 body would stop it. (it is 1 body/def stops 1" of knockback/movment, right? or am I remembering wrong?)

 

Well, if I got that right, hmmmm, don't think I like it. There's just something very satisfying about putting an opponent through a building.

[Zaratustra]

Maybe the problem is that a throw in Hero system is instant. A more realistic approach would be to give the object a certain flight speed, and every segment it moves that speed and reduces it a bit for friction. And, of course, account for gravity.

 

Here's a system I'm making up as I type:

 

- Character throws object. Object's speed is 1" for each 5 STR over that required to lift the object. It is assumed that the character is throwing it at the angle required to hit the target hex, unless they miss the attack roll.

 

- In every segment, at DEX 0, the object flies its speed, then reduces it by 2" (1" if it's aerodynamic, 3" or 4" if it's particularly clumsy or non-dense)

 

- This proceeds until the object hits the hex, or reaches speed 0 (in which case it just falls on its current hex: gravity got the best of it)

[Fedifensor]

Originally posted by Zaratustra

Maybe the problem is that a throw in Hero system is instant. A more realistic approach would be to give the object a certain flight speed, and every segment it moves that speed and reduces it a bit for friction. And, of course, account for gravity.

There are some *old* (created in 1993) alternate throwing rules on my website, at the following URL:

http://www.peakpeak.com/~fedifensor/games/hero/throwfar.htm

 

I'd probably revise them significantly now, but it's a good starting point if you want to give an object a flight speed.

 

-Casey

[Lord Liaden]

Interesting discussion!

 

There is an implicit element of MegaScale Throwing that works against hurling an opponent through multiple buildings: MegaScale is not supposed to function over less than 1", whatever scale that 1" may be. To me that implies that if you don't have at least that much clear, uobstructed space through which to throw someone you can't execute a "mega-throw." Of course, that is a meta-game restriction that some people may not be satisfied with on grounds of realism.

 

Morningstar, I'd hesitate to apply MegaScale to Knockback done by attacks, partly because of the issues of not using MegaStrength on a personal scale as I discussed earlier, and partly because I feel that it's giving an attack too much power for the size of Advantage. However, I did once try a house rule that you could buy Double Knockback multiple times. One PC brick bought X4 Knockback on his STR 60; really expensive, but at least he paid for the benefit that he got, and he really enjoyed sending his foes sailing through the air.

[Morningstar]

I agree megascale would have huge problems with knockback or throwing opponents. It was just a use for megascale that I never considered.

 

I think when you have done as much mental gymnastics with these rules as a lot of us have over the years, it suprises me when a use for rules comes up that I have never considered before.

[Klytus]

Anybody remember the article by Dean Shomshak "How Far did Grond Throw You?" in AC #20? That gave some good alternate rules on throwing for distance.

 

BTW, according to the article, Grond can chuck a small yacht, a lear jet and/or a garbage truck into orbit.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Klytus

Anybody remember the article by Dean Shomshak "How Far did Grond Throw You?" in AC #20? That gave some good alternate rules on throwing for distance.

 

BTW, according to the article, Grond can chuck a small yacht, a lear jet and/or a garbage truck into orbit.

 

I do remember the article; a noble effort to deal with the physics of the situation, although Dean forgot to account for air resistance. I still wouldn't be comfortable with giving every brick that degree of potential throwing distance, though.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

I still wouldn't be comfortable with giving every brick that degree of potential throwing distance, though.

I think that is the crux of it all, even in comics. While it is true that occasionally the Hulk will cut loose and throw someone for a mile or more, you are talking about an occurrence which takes place maybe once every 20-30 issues. A player, on the other hand, would abuse that tactic 2-5 times every game session. I think the curtailing of abuse is the main reason the throwing rules are written as they are.

[Klytus]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

I do remember the article; a noble effort to deal with the physics of the situation, although Dean forgot to account for air resistance. I still wouldn't be comfortable with giving every brick that degree of potential throwing distance, though.

 

I don't think it was matter of "forgot" but rather ommited for the sake of brevity. Air resistance, while very real, is also an unquantifiable variable because it depends on the surface area of the object being thrown - and bricks throw everything from manhole covers to cruise liners. Having to account for the amount of drag generated by items like that and everything in between would be staggering.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Klytus

I don't think it was matter of "forgot" but rather ommited for the sake of brevity. Air resistance, while very real, is also an unquantifiable variable because it depends on the surface area of the object being thrown - and bricks throw everything from manhole covers to cruise liners. Having to account for the amount of drag generated by items like that and everything in between would be staggering.

 

Fair enough. I made an assumption based on the remark from the AC editor about that article: "Dean's equations do not take air friction into account." That doesn't imply that it wasn't an intentional omission, though.

[Fedifensor]

Originally posted by Monolith

I think that is the crux of it all, even in comics. While it is true that occasionally the Hulk will cut loose and throw someone for a mile or more, you are talking about an occurrence which takes place maybe once every 20-30 issues. A player, on the other hand, would abuse that tactic 2-5 times every game session. I think the curtailing of abuse is the main reason the throwing rules are written as they are.

Seems a weak excuse for poor rules, to me. The easiest way around this is to design a system where you can do shorter throws in combat, and longer throws once your target is immobilized. After all, if you're holding a tank in such a way that it cannot attack you, it's effectively out of the combat. At that point, you should be able to throw it a long way if you're strong enough. Similar to how Transform was designed on RKA, reasoning that if you can do enough damage to kill something, you should be able to transform it for about the same amount of power.

[TaxiMan]

How about a general skill with Throwing? -2 for every doubling of distance. Don't know how that would work, just an idea that popped into my head.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Fedifensor

Seems a weak excuse for poor rules, to me. The easiest way around this is to design a system where you can do shorter throws in combat, and longer throws once your target is immobilized.

Which of course brings us back to the original balance issues. Example:

 

Ogre grabs Nighthawk, and since Nighthawk is not strong enough to break free he is immobilized. So now Ogre throws him 1 mile. Nighthawk is now completely out of the battle, even though the impact from the throw did not knock him out.

 

The point of the throwing rules as they are now is so that characters (both hero and villain) cannot be taken out of a game due to not having sufficient movement to get back into a combat. Most combats do not last 5 Turns. No player wants to spend 8 Turns running, leaping, or flying back to the battle he has just been throw away from. If immobilization where the only factor then the only people bricks could not throw would be other bricks like themselves.

[cboscari]

"The HERO System is not designed to represent real life. The game is designed to represent heroic fiction as presented in comics, novels, television, and movies."

 

How come I can't throw stuff around then? In the manner of the comic books? There should be a combat and non-combat throwing mechanism, where I can throw something a really long way.

Chris

[Fedifensor]

Originally posted by Monolith

Ogre grabs Nighthawk, and since Nighthawk is not strong enough to break free he is immobilized. So now Ogre throws him 1 mile. Nighthawk is now completely out of the battle, even though the impact from the throw did not knock him out.

Never mind the fact that Ogre could do a sqeeze and just as easily take Nighthawk out.

The point of the throwing rules as they are now is so that characters (both hero and villain) cannot be taken out of a game due to not having sufficient movement to get back into a combat.

With the advent of MegaScale movement, this isn't as much of a concern as it once was. Plus, if it takes long enough to do the initial throw, it balances the "remove from combat" factor.

 

First, you get rid of the "Grab and Throw" ability currently in the rules. Throw becomes a separate attack action.

 

Second, make a "noncombat" throw like a noncombat teleport, requiring an extra phase to accomplish it. That's at least two phases for the target to make a Contortionist roll, Teleport, use an attack power on the target, or similar attempts to get out of the target's grasp. Given standard Champions attacks and defenses, most bricks could render an immobilized opponent unconscious within two phases.

 

Third, reduce the damage a character takes from a long-distance throw. I attemped to cover this in my system by splitting the throw into velocity and segments of movement. This means that you may get thrown 40", but it's actually 10" for 4 segments. 10d6 damage is much different than 30d6 (from hitting solid earth on landing).

 

Sure, it's a bit more work to create a functional throwing system, but Champions players aren't ones to shy away from a bit of complexity.