The time chart and noncombat movement

[Truthsayer]

Okay, so I decided to increase the time chart to 1 turn = 1 minute. That seems more realistic to me than 12 seconds. The only problem I'm having is figuring out how to make up for the multiplier of 5 for the 1 minute that gives movement the distances normal for noncombat movement. I mean does this mean I'm going to have to buy more noncombat multiples just to get vehicles moving at a reasonable mph speed? any suggestions would help.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The time chart and noncombat movement

 

Why not just allow that movement outsuide combat is 5x faster and avoid any complex fixes?

[Dust Raven]

Re: The time chart and noncombat movement

 

What Hugh said pretty much. Have the base ncm for movement be x10 instead of x2, and normal cost for additional ncm.

[Rapier]

Re: The time chart and noncombat movement

 

Okay' date=' so I decided to increase the time chart to 1 turn = 1 minute. That seems more realistic to me than 12 seconds. The only problem I'm having is figuring out how to make up for the multiplier of 5 for the 1 minute that gives movement the distances normal for noncombat movement. I mean does this mean I'm going to have to buy more noncombat multiples just to get vehicles moving at a reasonable mph speed? any suggestions would help.[/quote']

 

This is not pointed at you speficically, but I always get a chuckle of those posts that begin with "I decided to remove Characteristics [or Combat or END or something else]."

 

I guess the first question is, why? Why did you decide to alter the time chart? Was there a specific problem? Was there an instance where it radically broke down?

 

What flavour of Hero are you playing? Champions? Ninja? Pulp? Dark Champions?

 

You have decided to alter the time chart in a rather fundamental way...and the ONLY issue you are having is with Non-Combat-Movement? You have figured out every other instance of use for the Time Chart?

 

I guess what I'm saying is that what you are suggesting is a rather fundamental change in the system. You need to give us more information before we can make any kind of informed decision on how to help. You should start by outlining the problems you were having with the old system (and possibly provide some examples). Tell us what kind of game you were playing. Not all genres are treated the same by some aspects of the system and there may be other options that you have not explored. Tell us what other changes you have already instituted (or thought of instituting) since they could have an impact on any suggestions we make.

[Truthsayer]

Re: The time chart and noncombat movement

 

I have never liked the 12 seconds turn timetable. I mean, running 36 feet in 1 second, full magical incantations in 1 second, you get the idea. Combat that takes 3 hours of game time but only 12 seconds pass? I just didn't like it. I think that increasing a turn to 60 seconds, 5 seconds a phase, just makes more realistic sense to me. I'm just trying to figure out the noncombat multiple that will still allow for a decent speed.

 

Why not just allow that movement outsuide combat is 5x faster and avoid any complex fixes?

 

Okay, so I have a team transport jet that flies 10" speed of 3 at 128x ncmbt. Using the 12 second turn, jet flies 10, 20, 40 1st turn. Next turn 80, 160, 320. Next turn 640, 1280, 1280. From there is it 1280. Now take 1280 x3 = 3840" per turn. 1 minute is 5 turns = 19200. 60 minutes = 1152000. Divided by 1,666 kilometers = 691 Miles per hour.

 

So I have a jet that can fly up to 691 miles per hour.

 

So let's apply that to your suggestion of 5xncmbt per 5 points. 10, 20, then the 5x kicks in, so I bought 30 pts of ncmbt multipliers at 5x level increments. So the last phase is 50". Next turn is 100, 150, 200. Next turn is 250, 300, 300. Then it is or 900 per turn. 1 minute is 5 turns = 4500. 60 minutes = 270000. Divided by 1666 kilometers = 162 miles per hour.

 

Or should it be a doulbing of each 5x? 10, 20, 50, 1st turn. Then 100, 200, 300. Then 600, 1200, 1200. 1200 x 3 =3600 per turn. 3600 for 1 minute = 18000. 18000 x 60 =1080000. Divided by 1666 kilometers =648 Miles per hour.

 

Now I buy 10" flight with 30 pts of ncmbt multiplier. Each turn is 60 seconds. So would that be 10, 20, 50 1st turn. 100, 200, 300 2nd turn. 600, 1200, 1200. 1200 x 60 = 72000. Divided by 1666 kilometers = 43 miles per hour. See? I can't see to get this.

 

I would really appreciate the help. I'm not good at conceptualizing math.

 

PS: It's a Champions super hero game.

[McCoy]

Re: The time chart and noncombat movement

 

What Hugh said pretty much. Have the base ncm for movement be x10 instead of x2' date=' and normal cost for additional ncm.[/quote']

What he said.

 

You have decided to alter the time chart in a rather fundamental way...and the ONLY issue you are having is with Non-Combat-Movement? You have figured out every other instance of use for the Time Chart?

Don't really think it's that fundamental a change, just the magnatude of time dialation between phased combat and non-combat time.

 

Personally, I prefer the 1 segment = 1 second, but don't see changing that as that big a deal.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The time chart and noncombat movement

 

I have never liked the 12 seconds turn timetable. I mean, running 36 feet in 1 second, full magical incantations in 1 second, you get the idea. Combat that takes 3 hours of game time but only 12 seconds pass? I just didn't like it.

 

How many characters in your game have a SPD of 12? That's about the only time a character does all that in one second.

[Rapier]

Re: The time chart and noncombat movement

 

Don't really think it's that fundamental a change' date=' just the magnatude of time dialation between phased combat and non-combat time.[/quote']

 

My thought was that anytime you start changing the time chart, you can run into issues with Long Term Endurance, Flashes, Susceptibilities, Recoveries, Charges, etc.

 

A combat turn is 12 seconds. There are 12 phases. It's a seemingly common misconception that this means that each action takes 1 second. It's a little more complicated than that. Remember that the SPD Chart is a game mechanic created to represent how time breaks down, so it's not going to be perfect.

 

If a character has a SPD of 4, they act 4 times in that 12 second window. 12 seconds / 4 action = 3 seconds per action. So each action takes three seconds. Yes, to bow to the Game Mechanic God we enact that entire three second window within a single phase...but that is just mechanics. A normal person has a SPD of 2. They get an action every 6 seconds.

 

Hero can get complicated, heck, most RPGs can get complicated. It can get even more complicated if you have had to teach the system to yourself or learned from someone who taught themselves out of a book. Sometimes things just don't click and it engenders this feeling of "that doesn't work" and it doesn't work because there may be a disconnect between what the writers envisioned and your understanding. Sometimes understanding where someone is coming from can allow us to point out where the misunderstanding lies. Sometimes not. But I'd rather at least make sure.

[Rapier]

Re: The time chart and noncombat movement

 

Okay, so I have a team transport jet that flies 10" speed of 3 at 128x ncmbt.

 

[Edited math. I was confused by your examples]

 

 

Okay, lets start with the basics. You can increase your velocity by 5" per hex you move. You can increase your velocity to full value within 1 phase.

 

NCM x2: 10" Flight, x128 NCM (7 doublings) = 50 pts (20 for flight and 30 for NCM)

NCM x5: 10" Flight, x78125 NCM (7 quintuplings) = 50 pts (still the same cost)

NCM x10: 10" Flight, x10 000 000 NCM (7 decituplings) = 50 pts (still the same cost)

 

Ok, obviously when you increase the multiple value of NCM speed things can get CRAZY out of control. 50 points for 100,000,000" of flight? EEP! However, this kind of lays out the groundwork for the differences in the various versions. Now lets look at velocity:

 

NCM x2 w/ 12 second Turns: (10" Combat Movement) * (128 NCM Multiple) * (3 Phases per Turn) * (2: meters per hex) * (5: turns in 1 minute) * (60: minutes per hour) / (1000: number of meters in a kilometer) / (1.609: convert km/hr to miles/hr) = 3707 miles/hr.

 

Combat Movement (10") is about 29 miles/hr.

NCM x2 w/ 1 minute Turns: (10" Combat Movement) * (128 NCM Multiple) * (3 Phases per Turn) * (2: meters per hex) * (60: minutes per hour) / (1000: number of meters in a kilometer) / (1.609: convert km/hr to miles/hr) = 741 miles/hr.

 

Combat Movement (10") is about 6 miles/hr.

 

NCM x5 w/ 1 minute Turns: (10" Combat Movement) * (78125 NCM Multiple) * (3 Phases per Turn) * (2: meters per hex) * (60: minutes per hour) / (1000: number of meters in a kilometer) / (1.609: convert km/hr to miles/hr) = 452,628 miles/hr.

 

Combat Movement (10") is about 6 miles/hr.

 

NCM x10 w/ 1 minute Turns: (10" Combat Movement) * (10,000,000 NCM Multiple) * (3 Phases per Turn) * (2: meters per hex) * (60: minutes per hour) / (1000: number of meters in a kilometer) / (1.609: convert km/hr to miles/hr) = 57,936,384 miles/hr.

 

Combat Movement (10") is about 6 miles/hr.

 

I'm assuming that what you are really looking for is what multiple will return the NCM movement rate for this craft to approximately 3707 miles/hr when the turn length is changed from 12 seconds to 1 minute, neh?

 

Combat movement is about 6 miles/hr.

 

10" Flight x5 NCM (20 Active) = 30 miles/hr

10" Flight x25 NCM (25 Active): 2 quintuplings = 150 miles/hr

10" Flight x625 NCM (30 Active): 3 quintuplings = 3750 miles/hr

 

3750 miles/hour is pretty close to 3707 miles/per hour. The problem is that you are changing the time dilation AND changing the NCM multiple steps. You will have to purchase fewer multiples to get to your desired speed.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The time chart and noncombat movement

 

I have never liked the 12 seconds turn timetable. I mean' date=' running 36 feet in 1 second, full magical incantations in 1 second, you get the idea. Combat that takes 3 hours of game time but only 12 seconds pass? I just didn't like it. I think that increasing a turn to 60 seconds, 5 seconds a phase, just makes more realistic sense to me. I'm just trying to figure out the noncombat multiple that will still allow for a decent speed.[/quote']

 

If I extrapolate your logic, if there are 5 characters moving in a specific phase, since they take turns moving, they each get 1/5 of the phase, so under your model, they still do all those things in one second.

 

As pointed out by others above, however, they do these things in their phase, which is likely more than one second. I don't know that 5 second intervals are is somehow more realistic. How long does it take to throw a punch?

 

Why not just allow that movement outsuide combat is 5x faster and avoid any complex fixes?

 

Okay' date=' so I have a team transport jet that flies 10" speed of 3 at 128x ncmbt. Using the 12 second turn, jet flies 10, 20, 40 1st turn. Next turn 80, 160, 320. Next turn 640, 1280, 1280. From there is it 1280. Now take 1280 x3 = 3840" per turn. 1 minute is 5 turns = 19200. 60 minutes = 1152000. Divided by 1,666 kilometers = 691 Miles per hour.[/quote']

 

Well, it's flying 1,280" x 2 meters per 1"= 2,560 meters per phase x 3 phases per turn = 7,680 m/turn = 7.68km/turn x 5 turns/minute = 38.4 km/minute x 60 = 2,304 km/hour/1.666 = 1,382 miles per hour.

 

[ASIDE: Why we need that last step I don't know, but if you prefer distances to be based on the length of a Royal Appendage rather than scientific units, that's your prerogative . Ever wonder why the country that annually celebrates its declaration of independence from England 230 years ago is pretty much the only nation on earth to still use the English measurement system?]

 

Anyway, where was I? Oh yes... Your jet actually can fly up to 1,281 miles per hour. Other than that, I'm with you so far.

 

So let's apply that to your suggestion of 5xncmbt per 5 points. 10' date=' 20, then the 5x kicks in, so I bought 30 pts of ncmbt multipliers at 5x level increments. So the last phase is 50". Next turn is 100, 150, 200. Next turn is 250, 300, 300. Then it is or 900 per turn. 1 minute is 5 turns = 4500. 60 minutes = 270000. Divided by 1666 kilometers = 162 miles per hour.[/quote']

 

Except I didn't say "make noncombat movement 5x for every 5 points spent". I said "rule that movement outside combat" [NOT "noncombat movement"] is 5x faster.

 

Our hypothetical 10" Flight Jet flies at 1,280" Noncombat Speed. IN COMBAT, but FLYING AT NONCOMBAT SPEEDS, it moves 1,280". OUT OF COMBAT, and FLYING AT NONCOMBAT SPEEDS, it moves 1,280" x 5 because it's out of combat.

 

So now it's flying 1,280" x 2 meters per 1"= 2,560 meters per phase x 3 phases per turn = 7,680 m/turn = 7.68km/turn x 1 turn/minute x5 because it's not in combat = 38.4 km/minute x 60 = 2,304 km/hour/1.666 = 1,382 miles per hour.

 

I'm not suggesting you modify noncombat multiples. I'm suggesting you simply apply a flat "x5 out of combat" multiplier for all movement. That leaves combat movement unchanged, so I don't need more flight inches to get the same noncombat velocity, giving me better in combat velocity, better move bys and move throughs, etc. and costing more points. In combat, all that matters are inches per phase. Outside combat, all that matters is distance travelled per time unit. This simple multiple allows the turn to be 5x longer while retaining the same move (in inches) in combat and the same move (in kph or mph) out of combat.

 

It does, however, offend realism, as you are going 5x faster out of combat as you are in combat.

 

Those of you here a while have heard this one before. When you make seemingly minor changes, they have ripple effects. If these aren't carefully considered, they will mess with your game, a little or a lot. Your choice to change a turn from 12 seconds to 1 minute seems like a tiny adjustment. Now you're seeing a ripple effect. I wonder whether you have considered:

 

- abilities with the Extra Time limitation. If one turn = 1 minute, you've removed a time increment. Do all time increments in excess of 1 turn fall one limitation place lower on the chart?

 

- adjustment powers with a reduced recovery time. Again, one less time increment. Do all time increments in excess of 1 turn fall one advantage place lower on the chart?

 

- if my Incantation is saying "Shazam", is it realistic that it still takes me a half phase to intone it? I have a 4 SPD - that's 7 seconds to say "Shazam". By your own yardstick of realism, that should be a freebie.

 

- If I have a fast 6 SPD martial artist who Aborts an action to dodge at the start of Phase 7, is it realistic that I need 15 seconds+ to recover my bearings? I don't move again until some time in Phase 10.

 

- Recovering once per turn (-10 to -19 STUN) and recovering once per minute (-20 to -29 STUN) are now identical. Does the latter become "recover every five minutes"? We need a much longer rest between combat encounters if you expect us to recover all our STUN and END. "It takes the reinforcements a minute to arrive" sounds a lot better than "After five minutes, the reinforcements finally drag themselves into the area".

 

- When holding your breath, you lose END every phase, but can voluntarily lower SPD to 2 (IIRC). Joe Average (8's across the board, so 16 END and 16 STUN) can hold his breath for 8 turns before he suffers BOD damage. Your modification to the SPD chart means a normal human can now hold his breath for 8 minutes before suffering any BOD damage, and another 4 minutes without being in any danger of death. Tell me again how this change was all about "realism"! Any fix requires characters be able to operate for virtually no time in a low oxygen environment.

 

There's doubtless others which haven't occured off the top of my head, but you can see this seemingly innocuous change has a pretty significant ripple effect.

[Truthsayer]

Re: The time chart and noncombat movement

 

Mine eyes have been opened. I see what you are talking about. I never considered those factors. 12 seconds & 4 speed = 3 seconds of movement. Duh! OKay, you guys convinced me to go back to the way it was designed. Thanks for the enlightenment.

[Rapier]

Re: The time chart and noncombat movement

 

You are most welcome. Like I said, sometimes we understand things differently than each other. That happens when most of us have learned the game through either reading the book or by learning from someone who learned from the book (or someone from someone from someone who learned from the book).

 

At any rate, the important part is that you are happy with your game. If we helped to explain things (to our understanding) well enough that it works, thats fabulous.

 

Have a great time, and we will be here if you got more questions!

[Dust Raven]

Re: The time chart and noncombat movement

 

Mine eyes have been opened. I see what you are talking about. I never considered those factors. 12 seconds & 4 speed = 3 seconds of movement. Duh! OKay' date=' you guys convinced me to go back to the way it was designed. Thanks for the enlightenment.[/quote']

 

 

Interistingly, the 12 second Turn is very realistic. Most real world fights of any kind (involving trained, experienced and/or intelligent combatants, and many that don't) and over in less than 20 seconds. Only in the movies have I seen fights take longer, and even then a lot of what I've seen is slow motion or rapid replays of the same maneuver which do nothing more than extend the view time rather then the fight time. Simulating such unrealistically long fights in Hero System is an easy matter of encouraging all the players to use their actions to take Recoveries a lot.

[Robyn]

Re: The time chart and noncombat movement

 

How long does it take to throw a punch?

 

If you're Batman, exactly 1/60th of a second (if I recall correctly). Either that or 1/30th.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The time chart and noncombat movement

 

If you're Batman' date=' exactly 1/60th of a second (if I recall correctly). Either that or 1/30th.[/quote']

 

Thank you Mr. Fugit.