"Divine Shield": ultimate defense

[Tornado]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

This is how I would build it:

(assuming 150 point character)

Divine Shield: Multiform to Form With Everything Base Has + Invulnerability Power (active cost 30); Fuel Charge of one charge of Five Minutes (-1/2) Real Cost: 20

Invulnerability: Healing 2d6, Resurrect (stopped by waiting until the ability deactivates), 0 END (+1/2) (80 Active Points), Persistent (+1/2), Extra Time: 1 Turn (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2), Standard Effect (-0). Real Cost: 29

[Killer Shrike]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Isn't that a modifier for lowering the OCV of that specific power?

 

This is a modifier for a defense power that, when in use, halves the OCV of ALL attacks the character might use.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Limited Power: Only on a palindromedary

 

Sure, I get that. Im just pointing out that there is already a model for it that could be extended for the Side Effect.

 

"All Attack Powers Gain Innacurate (1/2 OCV) Limitation For Duration Of Effect"

[Enforcer84]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

One of the things I have always enjoyed about Hero is that there are no absolutes.

Why is that so neat? Lot's of people say that I don't know why that is such a desirable point of the game.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Why is that so neat? Lot's of people say that I don't know why that is such a desirable point of the game.

 

Because absolutes lead to unstoppable force vs immoveable object conundrums for starters. Also because absolutes are inherently imbalanced as they don't allow fair comparisons between abilities; everything becomes completely arbitrary. Without absoultes, things are relative, which allows for a much wider range of play.

 

 

You see a little bit of the problems inherent to near-absolutes with flat costs already in the HERO System with Desolid and Invisibility. If they were completely absolute rather than just mostly, it would be even worse.

[Icel]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Look, if it was a characters of a player or a NPC, I would have waved it aside and just say that the character is invulnerable, pays 6-8 end per phase to stay that way and has 1/2 OCV for a cost of something like 25 points.

In your own personal games you don't always have to follow the rules if they interfere with your gaming.

 

But since this character is built for web site display and demonstration I needed something legit.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Why is that so neat? Lot's of people say that I don't know why that is such a desirable point of the game.

 

Not only do "Absolute Effect" abilities make it more difficult to share material (as a fairly significant divergence from mainstream rules), but because it introduces a "feature" of other games systems into the HERO System which I percieve to be a flaw in those systems. Allowing an arbitrary ruling of absolute effects introduces the Irresistible Force vs Immovable Object vs Designers Whim vs Sacred Cow conundrums that crop up in other games but which are generally absent from HEROs due to its NO ABSOLUTES policy.

 

What happens when a character with an "Absolute Effect" attack that "never misses" shoots at a character with an "Absolute Effect" that never allows that character to be hit? Things like that cant happen currently becuase there is no attack that always hits and there is no defense that always protects vs everything. Etc.

 

Also, I play the game at all point levels, and absolute effects will by necessity be pointed differently at different point levels. Enough DEF in a FW to qualify for "immunity to damage" will vary by setting and genre frex. Currently to share Power Construct, people just need to post the full construct; its base effect, advantages, and limitations are self describing. To share an "Absolute Effect" you would also have to post the point level, the damage cap, ie whatever basis for the assumption that the power effect is an Absolute.

 

Absolute power effects also risk invalidating entire portions of other characters. If you have an Absolute effect that ALWAYS does something, youve invalidated the non Absolute abilities of all characters that have invested points in not having that happen to them. Etc etc. Soon almost ALL character abilites need to be Absolute to "balance" them against one another.

 

Finally, when an Absolute effect resolves, you might as well chuck the rule book, because nothing in it applies; the effect is Absolute -- it just happens that way and thats all there is to it, arbitrarily. Kind of invalidates the precepts of the HERO System, which is a rules heavy game, to just chuck the book and fly by the seat of your pants as the GM trying to interweave mutually exclusive and "it works because I say so" effects.

[Icel]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

I agree about the general idea you pointed here as absulote doesn't need to be a in core HERO. But for privet game and setting it is a base-to-base rule.

If I want to run a Warcraft game where there is paladin how in immune to everything for sort time but this abillity need to be in pair with other characters abillities costs and so I can't write a legit total defense since it will be very costly.

[Utech]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

If I want to run a Warcraft game where there is paladin how in immune to everything for sort time but this abillity need to be in pair with other characters abillities costs and so I can't write a legit total defense since it will be very costly.

 

If I'm reading this correctly, you want to be invulnerable but not pay much for it. Is that right? If so, I don't think it is possible. I'll be interested to see if you come up with something.

 

What I'd suggest as a compromise would be buying a Force Wall with defenses high enough to avoid the damage from pretty much anything you're likely to encounter in your game. Take the Self Only and No Range Limitations and any others you feel might be appropriate.

 

Example:

15pd / 15ed Force Wall (150 Active Points)

Self Only (-1/2)

No Range (-1/2)

Side Effect -3 OCV whenever power is used (-1/2?)

Requires a Skill Roll, No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll (-0)

12 Charges (-1/4)

Real Cost 55 points

 

Notes:

• Assuming that you're not worried about attacks that do more than 15 points of BODY, you can ignore all attacks leveled at your character (BODY and STUN)
  
• You're still vulnerable to mental attacks, flash, etc with the example above, you but you could fix that by adding Mental Defense, Flash Defense, and Power Defense to your power. (at considerable added cost...)
  
• You will not be able to attack through your own shield unless your powers (or STR) is bought with the Indirect Advantage.

[gojira]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Just knowing what little I do about Warcraft, Divine Sheild is more of an Aura than an actual wall or sheild, isn't it?

 

Divine Sheild, +15 PD / 15 ED Force Field (30 AP), 3 Continuing Charges per day, charge lasts for one turn (-1), Requires a Skill Roll (-1/2), Side Effect: -3 OCV (-1/4), Gestures (only to activate) (-1/4), Side Effect: Brightly Glowing Aura (-0). Real Cost 10 points.

 

That's much more limited than some of the above power builds with only three charges. You might go with x3 END cost instead, and get a bit more usefulness out of it...

[Metaphysician]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

As an aside, the only place I know where absolute effects are done coherently is Exalted. It starts with their being a rule: "perfect defense always trumps perfect attack." It continues by noting, and accepting, that this means even a starting Exalt can survive for at least a couple turns against a cosmic monstrousity, if he basically spends each turn perfectly defending.

[Icel]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

If I'm reading this correctly, you want to be invulnerable but not pay much for it. Is that right? If so, I don't think it is possible. I'll be interested to see if you come up with something.

The point I was trying to make i that for some cases you don't have to use legit HERO builds, you can just wave it aside.

If its a WarCraft convention to have invulnerablity, then I won't take trouble in trying to do this.

 

Of course, this is only true in my games for PCs and NPCs. What I'm doing now is a display character so I can't wave it.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

As an aside' date=' the only place I know where absolute effects are done coherently is Exalted. It starts with their being a rule: "perfect defense always trumps perfect attack." It continues by noting, and accepting, that this means even a starting Exalt can survive for at least a couple turns against a cosmic monstrousity, if he basically spends each turn perfectly defending.[/quote']Which is where Hero could very sensibly start.

 

I am not of the opinion that "absolutely no absolutes" is a virtue, it leads to some very quirky builds to get around areas that sometimes just need an absolute.

 

We've had this discussion before, and the last one (here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39401&highlight=soveriegn+defense) we came up with the sensible "Soveriegn Defense" IMO, it was bought as Negative DCs and it subtracted directly from an attack, right off the bat, before it ever touched the Character's other defenses. So, for below certain threshold (the level of Negative DCs in Soveriegn Defense purchased) the Character was Invulnerable.

 

But eh, to each his own.

 

TB

[Dust Raven]

Re: "Divine Shield": ultimate defense

 

Why is that so neat? Lot's of people say that I don't know why that is such a desirable point of the game.

 

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes."

 

 

(except of course for Jedi who says things like this)