Brutal Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 I was thinking the other day, whats with the leaping? since characters can jump 1" for every 5 STR. This means that any common man reasonably fit with strength 10 or so can jump 8 meters vertically! (world record is 8.90 AFAIR?). And my high elf swordmaster with strength 18 can jump 16 meters!! How reasonable is this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavnn Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 I think your maths has gone screwy somewhere. A STR 10 man can jump 10/5=2" horizontal (4m) or 10/5/2=1" Vertical (2m). Fairly reasonable for a untrained high jump. *Looks back at numbers* I think you've doubled the scale of everything somewhere. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UrielFallen Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 The only problem I've ever had with leaping is that a character with a 50 STR who is 256 times stronger than an average human being can only jump up about 20-30 feet. Something's kinda wonky with that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Originally posted by UrielFallen The only problem I've ever had with leaping is that a character with a 50 STR who is 256 times stronger than an average human being can only jump up about 20-30 feet. Something's kinda wonky with that... Lifting Strength does not equal jumping ability. If it did, the NBA would be composed of power lifters, as would Track & Field and Gymnastics. Arnie, master of the Long Jump! If you want to leap farther, buy extra leaping; simple. Tying it too closely to Strength doesnt make sense. Also, Strength is already quite efficient enough for its cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Posted June 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 Originally posted by Mavnn I think your maths has gone screwy somewhere. A STR 10 man can jump 10/5=2" horizontal (4m) or 10/5/2=1" Vertical (2m). Fairly reasonable for a untrained high jump. *Looks back at numbers* I think you've doubled the scale of everything somewhere. Michael Ahhh yes, my mistake, i meant HORIZONTALLY of course Anways, the statement still stands, my elf with a mere 18 strength can still jump 16 meters HORIZONTALLY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavnn Posted June 25, 2003 Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 Originally posted by Brutal Ahhh yes, my mistake, i meant HORIZONTALLY of course Anways, the statement still stands, my elf with a mere 18 strength can still jump 16 meters HORIZONTALLY Errr... 18/5 = 4" (8m) Horizontal. You still seem to be doubling everything . It's still a long way, to be fair. But then STR 18 is pretty strong, and it's called HERO for a reason - it makes heroic assumptions, not always realistic ones. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted June 25, 2003 Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 Originally posted by Brutal Anways, the statement still stands, my elf with a mere 18 strength... There is nothing "mere" about an 18 STR. In real world terms a man with 18 STR would be an NFL linebacker or a professional weightlifter. He's capable of lifting 300 kilograms, or over 660 pounds! You darn sure wouldn't think it's "mere" if he punched you. So my question is: Why is your frail skinny little elf stronger than a circus strongman? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Posted June 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 Originally posted by Trebuchet There is nothing "mere" about an 18 STR. In real world terms a man with 18 STR would be an NFL linebacker or a professional weightlifter. He's capable of lifting 300 kilograms, or over 660 pounds! You darn sure wouldn't think it's "mere" if he punched you. So my question is: Why is your frail skinny little elf stronger than a circus strongman? I was being ironic. Besides, in the world we play, the elven warriors are sometimes being "strongmen" as you put it. Also we've been playing a while so the EXP's has been piling up, and after all if a guy is 200 years old like my character is, he's had some time to use weights Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Posted June 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 Originally posted by Mavnn Errr... 18/5 = 4" (8m) Horizontal. You still seem to be doubling everything . It's still a long way, to be fair. But then STR 18 is pretty strong, and it's called HERO for a reason - it makes heroic assumptions, not always realistic ones. Michael Is not non combat still x2 for leaping? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted June 25, 2003 Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 Originally posted by Brutal I was being ironic. Besides, in the world we play, the elven warriors are sometimes being "strongmen" as you put it. Also we've been playing a while so the EXP's has been piling up, and after all if a guy is 200 years old like my character is, he's had some time to use weights Sounds like you've got stat bloating going on, which may be part of the problem. As far as the statement itself, it doesnt make sense that older = stronger. I could live to 1000 and lift everyday, but if my physiology werent otherwise altered I would still reach an upper limit of what its possible for me to lift. Also, as an aside, Lifting power = what a character can barely get off the ground and stagger around with, or the maximum limit of what they can bear to carry and still move around (at a reduced rate), not the more conventional concept of what they can clear in a standing press or a bench press. All that aside, yes, leaping is a very efficient Power. However, remember that without Accurate you also have to hit the hex you want to land in, and unlike running you have to move in straight lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted June 25, 2003 Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 Originally posted by Brutal Is not non combat still x2 for leaping? The description of the Leaping Power on FREd p. 126 implies that a character has to buy extra Leaping beyond the free ones that his Strength provides before he can leap noncombat. Personally, I've never allowed a noncombat leap in heroic level campaigns even if a character has bought extra inches of Leaping; it just strains credulity even for legendary heroes, as your example points out. Might be worth asking for an official ruling from Steve Long, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted June 25, 2003 Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 And noncombat leaping takes longer than 1 phase, and also has the normal downsides to moving NCM. Also, when you NCM your OCV drops to 0, so I wonder how that affects rolling to hit the hex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavnn Posted June 25, 2003 Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 Originally posted by Killer Shrike And noncombat leaping takes longer than 1 phase, and also has the normal downsides to moving NCM. Also, when you NCM your OCV drops to 0, so I wonder how that affects rolling to hit the hex I'd never thought of that... Harsh. But fair. And funny. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted June 25, 2003 Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 Originally posted by Killer Shrike And noncombat leaping takes longer than 1 phase, and also has the normal downsides to moving NCM. Also, when you NCM your OCV drops to 0, so I wonder how that affects rolling to hit the hex Also remember that a hex is an abstraction of 6.5 feet and your character is somewhere in that 6.5 feet. Maybe the center, maybe the edge. So if you think of leaping not as a lteral # of " x 6.5 feet jumped but instead only count the distance of the hexes between the 1st hex and the last hex, your character could be jumping from the edge of 1 hex to the edge of the target hex, which is a little bit less actual distance. It can still be "heroically far" however for high STR humans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Posted June 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2003 Originally posted by Killer Shrike Sounds like you've got stat bloating going on, which may be part of the problem. As far as the statement itself, it doesnt make sense that older = stronger. I could live to 1000 and lift everyday, but if my physiology werent otherwise altered I would still reach an upper limit of what its possible for me to lift. Also, as an aside, Lifting power = what a character can barely get off the ground and stagger around with, or the maximum limit of what they can bear to carry and still move around (at a reduced rate), not the more conventional concept of what they can clear in a standing press or a bench press. All that aside, yes, leaping is a very efficient Power. However, remember that without Accurate you also have to hit the hex you want to land in, and unlike running you have to move in straight lines. Of course it means that the older you get the stronger you can become if you train hard (because you got more time practicing it). Besides, in champions you can still buy characteristics above character maxima, except that it costs double, so that is not a problem. The accuracy thing isnt really problematic either to be honest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Posted June 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Liaden The description of the Leaping Power on FREd p. 126 implies that a character has to buy extra Leaping beyond the free ones that his Strength provides before he can leap noncombat. Personally, I've never allowed a noncombat leap in heroic level campaigns even if a character has bought extra inches of Leaping; it just strains credulity even for legendary heroes, as your example points out. Might be worth asking for an official ruling from Steve Long, though. I just read through it again, but I my intepretation is a bit different than yours. It says that you can use your leaping non combat too, but what it doesn't say is if you can use the base STR for this or not (or how many inches you would have to buy to be able to leap non combat). Because really, all players with strength can leap, buying the leaping power just adds to that ammount. So, yes, it would be nice with some official ruling from Mr Long about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted June 26, 2003 Report Share Posted June 26, 2003 Originally posted by Brutal Of course it means that the older you get the stronger you can become if you train hard (because you got more time practicing it). Besides, in champions you can still buy characteristics above character maxima, except that it costs double, so that is not a problem. The accuracy thing isnt really problematic either to be honest Getting stronger as you get older doesnt make much sense, Im afraid. Are you stronger than your grandfather or father? Training only goes so far; age past a point equals deterioration. Else, why are atheletes "old" by thier 30's and finished by thier 40's? Yes you can go over Maxima, at double the cost. Normal people dont have very many points to push around. Also, while HEROs, ie PCs, dont have to apply the Age categories if they dont want, its assumed that normal people do. Accuracy can very well be a problem when Leaping over a gap or clearing a ravine or going for a ledge or such like -- a miss can earn you a one way ticket straight down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted June 26, 2003 Report Share Posted June 26, 2003 I'm surprised this got to page 2 without anyone stating the A#1 reason Leaping isn't too cheap (and if someone did and I miss it, oops)... The fact that you have to make a to-hit roll on the hex means there's always a chance, however slim, that you won't be able to make a melee attack that turn because you missed the hex. Have that happen to your character a few too many times and suddenly leaping looks too expensive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted June 26, 2003 Report Share Posted June 26, 2003 5 points fix that problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Posted June 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2003 Originally posted by Killer Shrike Getting stronger as you get older doesnt make much sense, Im afraid. Are you stronger than your grandfather or father? Training only goes so far; age past a point equals deterioration. Else, why are atheletes "old" by thier 30's and finished by thier 40's? Yes you can go over Maxima, at double the cost. Normal people dont have very many points to push around. Also, while HEROs, ie PCs, dont have to apply the Age categories if they dont want, its assumed that normal people do. Accuracy can very well be a problem when Leaping over a gap or clearing a ravine or going for a ledge or such like -- a miss can earn you a one way ticket straight down. GEEEEEZ you just don't seem to get my point do you? Its not the AGE that makes you stronger, its the ammount of time you get to lift weights. An elf that can live for five thousand years without dying does not feel loss of strength at the age of 500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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