Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

[Day6000]

I have no idea what that is or how to use it. I think a better question is, is it even worth knowing?

[Lucius]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

I have no idea what that is or how to use it. I think a better question is' date=' is it even worth knowing?[/quote']

 

Shh. We shouldn't discuss it where the children might overhear.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a naked palindromedary

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

To your second question, I would say, most definitely. A Naked Modifier is a great way to construct a special ability that a character has that he can apply in a wide range of circumstances, like being so fast and accurate with any gun that he can effectively make any gun Autofire, even if it normally isn't; or to have an Advantage for a Power that itself has different Modifiers from the base Power, like building gauntlets that make your Strength Armor Piercing, but those gauntlets can be taken away from you (Focus Limitation).

 

Ad for how to use it, I don't want to relate all the info about it from the rulebook due to copyright issues, but essentially it's calculated in two ways. If you intend to apply this Advantage or Adder just to a single Power, you calculate how many points it would cost if it were bought for the Power as normal, then add those points as a separate entry on your character's sheet. You then apply any further Limitations or Advantages that you want the Naked Modifier to have directly to those points.

 

If you want the Naked Modifier to apply to several different Powers or weapons at once (e.g. all handguns or all flame powers), you do essentially the same thing, but calculate a Naked Advantage as if it were being applied directly to the largest Active Point Power in the group of things you want it to work with, including any Advantages or Adders that Power already possesses.

 

Again, the Fifth Edition, Revised rulebook has more details, and the online FAQ also answers some questions (look for the FAQ link in the blue banner at the top of this page). If those don't tell you everything you need, feel free to post followup questions.

[Robyn]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

I have no idea what that is

 

Think of Combat Skill Levels.

 

You buy +3, only for OCV.

 

Well, when does this apply?

 

You attack someone with your bare hands. It applies then.

 

You take a swing at someone with your club. It applies then.

 

You fire a gun at someone. It applies then.

 

In short, it applies to any number of attacks, even though each attack is different.

 

It's the same with Naked Advantages: you can apply the Modifier to any power you have.

 

There's one catch, though; you have to pay in advance for powers "up to a certain effectiveness", and you can't apply the Naked Advantage to any power that's more effective.

 

The effectiveness is measured by a power's Active Point value, which is its base cost multiplied by the total value of all the Advantages you're only applying to that power (plus 1, to make sure you don't actually get a cost discount by taking a +1/2 Advantage).

[Day6000]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

Wow im pretty confused, ill figure it out sometime. Thanks for your help though.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

Now I do not often find myself diametrically opposed to Lord Laiden, but I have to disagree: a naked modifier is an appalling solution to a particular problem that arises in Hero: if you buy a power with an advantage you cannot then use the power without the advantage.

 

Now sometimes this matters: you buy area affect for your strength and you ALWAYS have to use it area effect, even if you only want to apply strength to one object. This can make breakfast a very frustrating start to the day.

 

So, what do we do?

 

Naked modifiers.

 

Basically it means that you have a modifier that you buy 'naked' i.e. not attached to any power, and then you can attach it to a power on the fly, and temporarily (in fact you can attach it to a group of powers sometimes, albeit one at a time) whenever you like, so long as the active points of the power do not exceed the active points used to calculate the cost of the naked modifier. Problem solved.

 

Well, yes, solved, but not in a satisfactory way in a game that is built on point balance: naked modifiers give you substantial advantages over purchasing the advantage attached to a power but cost the same. They can also make if very difficult to properly balance the active points in a power as the link is not so self evident.

 

There are other uses for naked advantages that do make it difficult to just ignore or discount them though: for example how would you build a character in a heroic game who can always use weapons in an effective way and so can apply armour piercing to attacks with weapons they have not paid for - guns, for example - the ony way to attach advantages to stuff you have not paid for uis with a naked advantage (or, in that particualr example, by buying find weakness - perhaps a different example would have been better, or perhaps not).

 

So, if there are reasons for having them (albeit not great ones IMO) it simply seems wrong to me to have a naked advantage cost the same as an advantage attached to a power.

 

The solution is far simpler than the one presented: change the rule that you have to use advantages with powers. Alternatively, and probably the better solution, charge more to seperate an advantage from a parent power (or should that be a clothing power, given the name?): either add an additional +1/4 to the advantage total to have an advantage naked OR add a set number of points to the base power to calculate the cost - 5 or 10 perhaps? I would favour the +1/4, personally. It then becomes a sort of very limtied variable advantage.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

OK, example, because what I wrote before was just diatribe:

 

Hurler, a character in a heroic game, can throw virtually anything that could be used in hand to hand combat so that it can cause similar damage at range, at least up to a point.

 

Hurler buys range as a naked advantage.

 

Range normally is a +1/2 advantage so, for instance, to use his 1d6+1 sword (4DC, 8 with strength) at range he could spend 10 points and be able to throw a sword and do 1d6+1 with it, or 20 points and be able to do 2.5d6 if he had sufficient excess strength.

 

The cost of the naked advantage is based on the cost of the advantage if applied to the base power cost.

 

So....1d6+1 HKA would normally cost 20 active points, or 30 with a +1/2 advantage, so you pay the difference (30-20=10) and you can use a 1d6+1 HKA at range.

 

The benefit is that, unless you apply limtiations, you can potentially apply range to ANY weapon that does damage with an active cost of 20 or fewer points: a 4d6 normal attack, for example or, if you had one, a 2d6 drain.

 

The naked advantage costs END to use at 1 point per 10 active points, like any other power, and can have advantages and limtiations applied directly to it to modify the cost.

[schir1964]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

I would simply double the Advantage to grant the ability to choose when and when not to use the Advantage. Limitations should always apply, if not, then that is what conditional limitations are for.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

I would simply double the Advantage to grant the ability to choose when and when not to use the Advantage. Limitations should always apply, if not, then that is what conditional limitations are for.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

But that would be as expensive and less useful than variable advantage.

[schir1964]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

But that would be as expensive and less useful than variable advantage.

Unless I'm wrong, Variable Advantage forces you to have Advantages.

This proposal allows you choose when the power has the Advantage or not.

I think the second grants more utility than the first, but others may differ on that.

 

Example:

6d6 EB [30 Points]

6d6 EB NND [60 Points]

Total: 90 Points

 

6d6 EB (NND When Needed) [90 Points]

 

You gain some utility, and you lose some utility with the proposal, so it may be a wash, which is why I think doubling would be just fine.

 

Of coures this hasn't really been tested as far as utility.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

Unless I'm wrong, Variable Advantage forces you to have Advantages.

This proposal allows you choose when the power has the Advantage or not.

I think the second grants more utility than the first, but others may differ on that.

 

Example:

6d6 EB [30 Points]

6d6 EB NND [60 Points]

Total: 90 Points

 

6d6 EB (NND When Needed) [90 Points]

 

You gain some utility, and you lose some utility with the proposal, so it may be a wash, which is why I think doubling would be just fine.

 

Of coures this hasn't really been tested as far as utility.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

 

60 point MP

6u 6d6 NND EB

3u 6d6 EB

 

Total 69 points

[Robyn]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

Unless I'm wrong, Variable Advantage forces you to have Advantages.

This proposal allows you choose when the power has the Advantage or not.

 

True, and I forgot that in my explanation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

Unless I'm wrong, Variable Advantage forces you to have Advantages.

This proposal allows you choose when the power has the Advantage or not.

I think the second grants more utility than the first, but others may differ on that.

 

Example:

6d6 EB [30 Points]

6d6 EB NND [60 Points]

Total: 90 Points

 

6d6 EB (NND When Needed) [90 Points]

 

60 Multipower - 60 points

6 u 6d6 EB NND

3 u 6d6 EB

 

69 points. I'd spend 72 and bump the second slot to 12d6 long before I'd pay 90 to be able to pick between a 6d6 EB and a 6d6 NND EB. However, if you want the ability to shut the advnatage off, +1/4 seems about right. 6d6 NND (+1), only NND when needed (+1/4) = 67; close enough to 69 for me. This assumes the character chooses. If the NND shuts down automatically when appropriate (target has defense; target is a Takes no Stun Automoton), make it +1/2. so it costs 75 to default back to a normal 6d6 EB when NND won't help.

[NestorDRod]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

May I make a humble suggestion?

 

Why not simply make the Advantage a "voluntary" concept? In other words, if I buy AOE for my character's Strength, it means the character has the ability to use his Strength that way. It does not mean that every application of Strength will have an AOE component. That's like saying if I buy 10 dice of EB, I have to use all 10 dice every time I attack.

 

I can select to use less than full strength for a Power (unless you buy a specific Disadvantage to prevent it). So why not have using an Advantage be a choice, too?

[schir1964]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

60 point MP

6u 6d6 NND EB

3u 6d6 EB

 

Total 69 points

Sorry Sean, but for this proposal to be applied consistently, it would apply to powers that are barred from being in a Framework. So your example isn't valid as a comparison, at least if the goal is to convince me the cost should be less.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

May I make a humble suggestion?

 

Why not simply make the Advantage a "voluntary" concept? In other words, if I buy AOE for my character's Strength, it means the character has the ability to use his Strength that way. It does not mean that every application of Strength will have an AOE component. That's like saying if I buy 10 dice of EB, I have to use all 10 dice every time I attack.

 

I can select to use less than full strength for a Power (unless you buy a specific Disadvantage to prevent it). So why not have using an Advantage be a choice, too?

Yes, the Beam Limitation. And this approach is just as valid as any other. However, if we apply this approach to Limitations, I don't think it would be as acceptible. Hmmmm....

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

IMO the Naked Advantage is still a cleaner method of dealing with Advantages that have different Limitations than the Powers they modify, like my AP gauntlets example above, rather than trying to describe and cost that within the Power writeup itself. In fact it's recommended that Naked Modifiers generally be reserved for constructs that do have different Modifiers from their base Power.

 

And there is a disadvantage to using a Naked Modifier rather than simply attaching it to a Power or Characteristic. The NM counts as a separate Power, with a lower Active Point total than if it were attached; so it's more vulnerable to Drain, Transfer, Dispel and Suppress, and if it's built as a Breakable Focus it may have a lower Defense to protect it.

 

BTW Sean, I'm not in the least upset or offended that you disagree with me. I have great sympathy for the misguided.

[schir1964]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

IMO the Naked Advantage is still a cleaner method of dealing with Advantages that have different Limitations than the Powers they modify' date=' like my AP gauntlets example above, rather than trying to describe and cost that within the Power writeup itself. In fact it's recommended that Naked Modifiers generally be reserved for constructs that do have different Modifiers from their base Power.[/quote']

I would agree with this. Having the Advantage itself have Limistations and such is a completely different thing. I think that is sole reason for actually having a Naked Power Advantage. I just wish there were a consistent way to include a Naked Power Limitation that would actually be limiting. (8^D)

 

And there is a disadvantage to using a Naked Modifier rather than simply attaching it to a Power or Characteristic. The NM counts as a separate Power' date=' with a lower Active Point total than if it were attached; so it's more vulnerable to Drain, Transfer, Dispel and Suppress, and if it's built as a Breakable Focus it may have a lower Defense to protect it.[/quote']

Is this a common thing to have in your games?

Exactly how does one come up with the SFX of an Adjustment Power, that affects a Naked Power Advantage only?

Just seems like it wouldn't be worth the points for such a specific power.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

Is this a common thing to have in your games?

Exactly how does one come up with the SFX of an Adjustment Power, that affects a Naked Power Advantage only?

Just seems like it wouldn't be worth the points for such a specific power.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

No, I've yet to come up with an Adjustment Power that targets Naked Advantages only. However, I've seen plenty of Adjustment Powers that target all Powers of a given SFX. IMO a Naked Advantage would generally have the same SFX in common with the Power(s) it modifies, and would therefore be affected by such attacks.

 

OTOH I would usually rule that a NM applied exclusively to, say, Darkness, would be affected by any Adjustment Power vs Darkness as a separate Power of that class.

[schir1964]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

Ah! Okay, gotcha. That makes sense.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Robyn]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

I can select to use less than full strength for a Power (unless you buy a specific Disadvantage to prevent it).

 

Arguably, there are many powers (such as guns) which are not bought with that specific Disadvantage, even when they should be. Promoting a higher level of consistency with this, though, may be less elegant than the solution you propose (though it would certainly require less adjustment from players already accustomed to how HERO works).

 

So why not have using an Advantage be a choice' date=' too?[/quote']

 

With an appropriate Limitation (or, a reduction to the value of the Advantage, rather) if using the Advantage is not a choice?

 

We could easily find ourselves, then, in the same situation as before: trying to get people to consistently reduce the value of Explosive for a bomb, to save points (something which, arguably, everyone wishes to do, or would if they knew it was appropriate) for not being able to use the damage part (EB?) without an Explosive effect/Advantage.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

Sorry Sean' date=' but for this proposal to be applied consistently, it would apply to powers that are barred from being in a Framework. So your example isn't valid as a comparison, at least if the goal is to convince me the cost should be less.[/quote']

 

No power is barred from being in a framework. Some require GM permission. I can't think of any powers that I'd want to be able to swicth advantages on and off which have issues wirth frameworks. Maybe you'd care to offer an example?

 

Even if I accepted the framework approach as being inapproproate as a costing comparison, however, your approach results in a character paying the same for:

 

- a 6d6 attack which can either be an NND or not be an NND

 

- an attack which may have a total of +1 in advantages - any advantages - applied to it [don't want +1 in advantages? make up the difference with "difficult to dispel"]

 

- purchasing a 6d6 NND and a 6d6 EB, 0 END, Linked to NND, then using them as a Multiple Power attack

 

The first seems clearly the least versatile (and thus appropriately the least expensive) of the two.

 

While I don't believe we should go the route of allowing advantages to toggle on or off at the user's discretion at no point cost, I also don't think a +1 advantage is the appropriate point costs for the added versatility of being able to switch the advantage off if desired.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

No power is barred from being in a framework. Some require GM permission.

 

Well, that isn't really much of a distinction IMHO. Most rules in HERO have that "GM permission" allowance. Even Steve Long has put a Naked Advantage as a slot in a Multipower for a published character, which is explicitly forbidden.

[schir1964]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

No power is barred from being in a framework. Some require GM permission.

Hugh, you know better than that. You know that I have strict interpretation of the rules when it comes to considering things book legal or not. So you know that this kind of statement has little chance of convincing otherwise. If the GM must grant permission in the rules, then a player is barred from building the construct just using the rules. The same thing goes for the GM allowing one mechanic do the job that another mechanic is designed for. The GM can allow it, but the player is barred from doing it per the rules. Just trying to prevent a huge tangent here.

 

While I don't believe we should go the route of allowing advantages to toggle on or off at the user's discretion at no point cost' date=' I also don't think a +1 advantage is the appropriate point costs for the added versatility of being able to switch the advantage off if desired.[/quote']

Well, I didn't say it was +1 Advantage. I said take the advantage and double it. It's possible and addtional +1/2 increase might be reflect the actual versatility gained (Sean suggested a version of this).

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: Anyone know anything about Naked Modifier?

 

 

BTW Sean, I'm not in the least upset or offended that you disagree with me. I have great sympathy for the misguided.

 

Technically I'm not mis-guided, I'm just lost - I did this all to myself, M'Lord